Gaddafi dead
Comments
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Well, I meant the Hague rather than here actually.0
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Conveniently his death hides those oh so difficult questions such as exactly what was Blairs relationship with the libyan govt, how many of camerons close friends have been involved in negotiations re oil, how much money did the CIA pass to mr gad in order to maintain their anti fundamentalist prescenceThe dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.0 -
Frank the tank wrote:I seem to recall the Romanians executed Ceausescu with very little fuss.
I seem to recall there was quite a lot of a fuss at the time. He was captured alive, along with his wife. Next thing - within a day or so - there were photos published of their two corpses lying side by side.0 -
Cleat Eastwood wrote:Conveniently his death hides those oh so difficult questions such as exactly what was Blairs relationship with the libyan govt, how many of camerons close friends have been involved in negotiations re oil, how much money did the CIA pass to mr gad in order to maintain their anti fundamentalist prescence
+1 (and i don't like conspiracies)0 -
These NTC fellas look like a shifty bunch, dont they? Hmm...0
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Cleat Eastwood wrote:Conveniently his death hides those oh so difficult questions such as exactly what was Blairs relationship with the libyan govt, how many of camerons close friends have been involved in negotiations re oil, how much money did the CIA pass to mr gad in order to maintain their anti fundamentalist prescence
He probably arranged Gaddafi's death in the same way as Dr Kelly's suicide.0 -
Yes they can celebrate for a wee while but once our despicable corporations have got in, shafted them right up to the sacs, they'll be wondering what all this democracy shite was all about once they're paying massively for everything like food, housing and utilities that their state probably provided heavily subsidised under that terrible evil dictator...
Another nation falls to the World Bank/IMF....time for some "structural adjustments" Milton Friedman Chicago School style....(privatisation/dismantling of public sector etc...), bend over Libya, take the pain....
So when do we get rid of our tyrannical dictatorial governments/EU bureaucracy? :?
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lvquestpaddler wrote:Yes they can celebrate for a wee while but once our despicable corporations have got in, shafted them right up to the sacs, they'll be wondering what all this democracy shite was all about once they're paying massively for everything like food, housing and utilities that their state probably provided heavily subsidised under that terrible evil dictator...
Another nation falls to the World Bank/IMF....time for some "structural adjustments" Milton Friedman Chicago School style....(privatisation/dismantling of public sector etc...), bend over Libya, take the pain....
So when do we get rid of our tyrannical dictatorial governments/EU bureaucracy? :?
You are a spoof. You are not a real person.0 -
de rien wrote:Cleat Eastwood wrote:Conveniently his death hides those oh so difficult questions such as exactly what was Blairs relationship with the libyan govt, how many of camerons close friends have been involved in negotiations re oil, how much money did the CIA pass to mr gad in order to maintain their anti fundamentalist prescence
He probably arranged Gaddafi's death in the same way as Dr Kelly's suicide.
Now that is a whole different thread... 0 -
So Bin Laden holds onto his tyrant world hide and seek record.Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי0
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lemoncurd wrote:seanoconn wrote:Gaddafi dead! Could be suicide. He was a Westlife fan after all.
He also thought that The Stone Roses were overrated.
Right - he's up for a kick in the nuts.
Decades of tyrannical abuse I can handle. The slaughter of thousands of innocenmt people - bit iffy, but hey. Having a golden gun - that's cool.
But you never , ever, ever, ever diss The Roses. Ever. People have been thrown off the side of boats for less.0 -
Frank the tank wrote:The man was a tyrant, he wasn't captured in the UK where no doubt we'd have paid a fortune EVENTUALLY having a trial (no doubt after years of legal wrangling) and dishing out some custodial sentence. That's how WE do things here it's OUR society.
He was captured in his own country which has the values he created and inflicted upon it and its people, and his people metered out justice how they saw fit and in a fashion many of their bretheren suffered. Gadaffi has no one to blame but himself.
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Not really that enlightened though, is it?0
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You are a spoof. You are not a real person.
Yes I am you fudstick.....more posts than you! 0 -
Cleat Eastwood wrote:Conveniently his death hides those oh so difficult questions such as exactly what was Blairs relationship with the libyan govt, how many of camerons close friends have been involved in negotiations re oil, how much money did the CIA pass to mr gad in order to maintain their anti fundamentalist prescence
Whilst i admire the faith you have in the 'International Courts of Justice' i.e. The Hague, i have huge reservations as to whether they would ask such questions you have noted above.
They may well have done, who am i to guess? But i am of the opinion that it would've been very much about Gadaffi, his family and his fellow leaders in Libya. These supra-national courts (the European Court of Human Rights is another one) aren't held accountable and as a result seem to reflect the dominant political thought, which in this world is overwhelmingly that of the US and NATO countries.
It's a shame really as takes away from the legitimacy and integrity of the word 'justice' and the concept of the 'rule of law'.0 -
Tom Dean wrote:You are a spoof. You are not a real person.
Denial. You must be scared of the truth. Just keep re-assuring yourself buddy....
Among the crackpot conspiracies thrown around so far, what this guy is saying is less a conspiracy theory, more a lesson from history. This crap does happen and has happened.
I'm less inclined to believe that Gadaffi subsidised healthcare, housing and utilities to the benefit of everyone in Libya. Gadaffi was giving it to Libyans up the @rse before the US and NATO wanted a bit of the action. The transition will be seemless no doubt (that's a funny and sick image all at the same time lol).0 -
Yeah he wasn't a decent bloke, my old man was with REME in Libya when he took over, said he was a c.....
I'm just not sure the Libyans will get the "freedom and democracy" they so crave- after all the two are not synonymous.
The country is now open to being carved up and raped in every sense....
Saddam ruled Iraq with an iron fist, but the people were kept in line and Iraq was, prior to the Iran war the most developed country in the region. It's in tatters now.
I don't know the socio-economic structure of Libya- what class system it may have had etc, but I'd bet that in a couple of years there will be a puppet government, a few very obscenely rich families at the top facilitating the exploitation of it's resources, and a vast amount of very poor people with a miniscule "middle class" joining the two.....0 -
ie.-The kind of "model" the UK is drifting towards!!!! 0
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RedJohn wrote:Frank the tank wrote:I seem to recall the Romanians executed Ceausescu with very little fuss.
I seem to recall there was quite a lot of a fuss at the time. He was captured alive, along with his wife. Next thing - within a day or so - there were photos published of their two corpses lying side by side.
You mis-understood what I meant by fuss, I meant they Ceausescu's were more-or-less summarily executed by his own people.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Cleat Eastwood wrote:Conveniently his death hides those oh so difficult questions such as exactly what was Blairs relationship with the libyan govt, how many of camerons close friends have been involved in negotiations re oil, how much money did the CIA pass to mr gad in order to maintain their anti fundamentalist prescence
+1. i suspect certain agencies have been 'sanitising' various filing cabinets in the confusion to protect the Blairs/Rumsfelds/BPs of the worldM.Rushton0 -
I don't think the Blair deal was that shaddowy. The pros and cons for both sides were pretty clear.
Libya was desperate to have sanctions lifted and was shitting itself that they may be in for Iraq-style invasion.
In return for that we get -
1. All nuclear/biological weapons material surrendered (imagine if he'd still had THAT stuff available over the last 8 months...)
2. Apology and compensation payable for Lockerbie, Yvonne Fletcher and IRA weapons/semtex supplies.
3. Libyan assistance in combating extremist Islamics
4. Good oil deal for BP
Not exactly that bad a deal in the world of geopolitics...0 -
Not wanting to start a conspiracy theory but i've heard on the grapevine that Mrs Clarke on the R2 Jeremy Vine show had something to do with it.The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.0 -
So no more Gaddafi Carbon Aero bikes then...0
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You could have at least put ***SPOILER*** in the title.
I was waiting till I got home to watch the news to see the final result.0 -
R we sure it wasnt one of his many Dopplegangers0
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How was this verified? I seem to recall that when Iraq was being accused of having all sorts of nasty things the UN inspector Hans Blix found no stockpiles of WMD's. Regardless of that Dubya got a war and Donald Rumsfeld was happy 'cos the companies he was involved with made a few bob. Maybe Muammar Gaddafi was playing it straight on these issues. However he was known as 'The Mad Dog' of the middle east by most of the people of the region for most of his time in power, so given his track record, I would have regarded him as someone you could never trust on anything. Sadly the invasion of Iraq proves that Bliar is equally untrustworthyrodgers73 wrote:I don't think the Blair deal was that shaddowy. The pros and cons for both sides were pretty clear.
Libya was desperate to have sanctions lifted and was ******** itself that they may be in for Iraq-style invasion.
In return for that we get -
1. All nuclear/biological weapons material surrendered (imagine if he'd still had THAT stuff available over the last 8 months...)
Compensation for the US victims of Lockerbie was paid a couple of decades after the event. I am not sure if it was ever agreed and/or paid for British victims. Stopping the IRA weapons and Semtex supplies was handy - after the worst of the Northern Irish problems had been resolved in the obvious way (by talking). Regarding Yvonne Fletcher: I think it shows what a crazy world we live in when someone can commit such a cowardly murder and is then protected by diplomatic immunity by his government. I honestly believe then when something like this happens the individual should have his protected rights removed by his own authorities. (Unfortunately there are countless cases where officials from lots of countries have used a diplomatic passport to escape accountability for all manner of serious offences. Libya's role in the Yvonne Fletcher murder may not be unique but is no less despicable for that and no amount of compensation can ever undo her death or those of lockerbierodgers73 wrote:2. Apology and compensation payable for Lockerbie, Yvonne Fletcher and IRA weapons/semtex supplies.
Libya was 'cooperating' on this front - but these guys were enemies of Gaddafi so we had a common enemy. To digress briefly: Let us not forget the help given to the Mujahideen by the west when these extremists were fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. The Russians had been asked for help by the legitimate Afghan government and the cold war was still on. On the flawed logic that "my enemy's enemy is my friend" we labelled the Mujahideen as "freedom Fighters"; Nowadays we call them the Taleban: (literally an Arabic word meaning 'student'). These are an illiterate bunch of dangerous thugs who blow up schools which open their doors to females. In their days of warring with the Russians these guys perpetrated the most vile and vicious acts of barbarity of Russian (conscript) soldiers they managed to capture. These Islamic Fundamentalists were cast in the same mold as Al Qaeda and other Islamic extremists. They were certainly not fans of Muammar Gaddafi and he had reason to fear them as we do in the West.rodgers73 wrote:3. Libyan assistance in combating extremist Islamics.
To return to the point:
Part of the 'assistance' provided by Libya in the Bliar-Gaddafi arrangement seems to have been as a destination for subjects of 'Extraordinary Rendition' who were suspected of being Islamic Terrorists. This was well after the practice had been exposed, condemned
and, as most of us had hoped, stopped. The Bliar government, however, continued the practice and made the mistake of sending a suspected terrorist there who was an opponent of Gaddafi; this same guy is now one of the leaders of the NTC. I wonder what he thinks of Great Britain and how his views will influence decisions he may be involved in in the future.
I reckon BP would be more than capable of negotiating an oil deal without the help of Bliar.rodgers73 wrote:4. Good oil deal for BP.
His help may, however, undermine that deal in the future
The huge problem with any outsider trying to 'help' with anything in the middle east is the suspicion this generates among the Arabs and other ethnic groups in the region.rodgers73 wrote:Not exactly that bad a deal in the world of geopolitics...
The US drives NATO and, as the most powerful nation in the world since the USSR imploded, has an abysmally feeble understanding of international affairs. In its financial and political support of Israel (a state founded on terrorism) Both the US and Israel are seen as enemies of the Arabs and Islam by many moderate Muslims as well as the extremists. Europe (especially Britain & France) are seen as countries which have meddled in middle eastern affairs since the time when the Ottoman Empire was crumbling. A popular Arab view of the British hero T E Lawrence was that he too was a British meddler - they have a very different perspective from us on that individual!
We do meddle and the reason for doing so is that the whole world economy is so dependent on oil. Demand is now so high - especially with the rapid expansion of China and India and the consequential increase in their energy consumption. Turning the tap off in one oil-producing country leads to all manner of economic problems in the western world -unemployment being one painful example.
Our most recent 'meddling' - air strikes against Gaddafi's forces was probably our least-worst option. If we had not done that then instability would have reigned long enough to send oil prices even higher and further damage the world economy. Standing back while yet another middle eastern lunatic murdered his own people could have been acceptable (to the politicians); Standing back while Libyan instability resulted in higher unemployment in Europe and the US was not acceptable especially as the bankers have done so much damage already.
Bliar's dealings with the mad dog may be forgiven or forgotten as the new Libya regime establishes itself and seeks the best business deals with the world. However they know they do not need to be unduly grateful for our help.
The big question is whether Gaddafi's death will now lead to a stable Libya - and thus improve the chances of stable oil prices. Libya, like many countries in the region, is comprised of many tribes who have no great love for one another. Logically, it will be in their interests to work together for an extremely wealthy country were the oil money delivers benefits to everyone. That is the simplistic western view. Time will tell whether this view will prevail or whether the tribal factions will tear the country apart.
Gaddafi's death was an ugly end to his long and ugly chapter in the history of the region. This was equally true of the death of Sadam Hussein in Iraq. In the case of Iraq the initial phase of their 'new chapter' proved extremely distasteful with the vast theft of Iraqi cash and the horrific violence. We all need to hope for something better in Libya as it serves our interests and those of the Libyan people.0 -
Was Gadaffi and his regime not viewed by most as a dangerous oppressive regime, hence the OK for the NATO bombing campaign to reduce civillian casualties (and assist the rebels)?
So when the rebels win and Gaddafi gets no more than he deserves, why is there a need for a trial. Assuming of course the point would have been to try Gaddafi and not the people he had done deals with.
I viewed the scenes on Sunday and seriously would any fair minded person have denied those Libyans their moment of utter joy at feeling "free" for the first time in their lives. Partially due to the fact that the spectre of Gaddafi had been lifted for ever due to him being dead, rather than banged up in the Hague (or wherever) giving his supporters something to cling onto and carry on rocking the boat about.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Frank the tank wrote:Was Gadaffi and his regime not viewed by most as a dangerous oppressive regime, hence the OK for the NATO bombing campaign to reduce civillian casualties (and assist the rebels)?
So when the rebels win and Gaddafi gets no more than he deserves, why is there a need for a trial. Assuming of course the point would have been to try Gaddafi and not the people he had done deals with.
I viewed the scenes on Sunday and seriously would any fair minded person have denied those Libyans their moment of utter joy at feeling "free" for the first time in their lives. Partially due to the fact that the spectre of Gaddafi had been lifted for ever due to him being dead, rather than banged up in the Hague (or wherever) giving his supporters something to cling onto and carry on rocking the boat about.
That's the thing for me, people who have never known anything other than safety and security calling for 'fair' justice from the comfort of their nice warm cosy homes need to exercise a little empathy. Morally I'd agree with those calling for a trial but also I have to acknowledge I've no idea what 42yrs of oppression and terror feels like and possibly having members of your own family murdered by the man.0
