Dale Farm

Gazzaputt

notsoblue wrote:

W1 wrote:

Oh give over - it's people with your sort of attitude that let things get to this level in the first place - liberalism and hand-wringing just means that people will take the p!ss if you give them the chance, pure and simple. This is a great example. Again, the naiivity you display is staggering.

I don't understand this... How would you have done things differently?

Bulldozed it 9 years ago whilst no-one would given a shite.

notsoblue

Gazzaputt wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

W1 wrote:

Oh give over - it's people with your sort of attitude that let things get to this level in the first place - liberalism and hand-wringing just means that people will take the p!ss if you give them the chance, pure and simple. This is a great example. Again, the naiivity you display is staggering.

I don't understand this... How would you have done things differently?

Bulldozed it 9 years ago whilst no-one would given a shite.

Who? The council? Surely doing this without following due process would be illegal? What makes you think they wouldn't have resisted the same way they did this morning?

Sewinman

I think it rather weakens the argument for the eviction as an act of upholding law and order if you then do not equally advocate following due legal process. Blame/change the legal system if you think that takes too long. They had every right to challenge it all at every legal step.

It is not 'PC gone mad' or 'liberal hand-wringing', it is just these people using every opportunity to slow down/ challenge the law and the application of it.

notsoblue

Sewinman wrote:

I think it rather weakens the argument for the eviction as an act of upholding law and order if you then do not equally advocate following due legal process. Blame/change the legal system if you think that takes too long. They had every right to challenge it all at every legal step.

It is not 'PC gone mad' or 'liberal hand-wringing', it is just these people using every opportunity to slow down/ challenge the law and the application of it.

Exactly. It might make them sh1ts, but they were following (exploiting) the "law of the land" for all that time. As soon as they stopped doing that they got tasered.

I think theres something very hypocritical about disliking a group of people because they don't adhere to the rules set by the authority, and then demanding that the authority change the rules to teach them a lesson.

Maxticate

notsoblue wrote:

I think theres something very hypocritical about disliking a group of people because they don't adhere to the rules set by the authority, and then demanding that the authority change the rules to teach them a lesson.

Is it not hypocritical to wish to live outside of society in general but then choose to use its own rules to support you when it suits you? You shouldn't be able to pick and choose at the bits of society you want. You're either in, and you pay for it or you are out.

bianchimoon

Notsoblue - but a bit green

notsoblue

Maxticate wrote:

Is it not hypocritical to wish to live outside of society in general but then choose to use its own rules to support you when it suits you? You shouldn't be able to pick and choose at the bits of society you want. You're either in, and you pay for it or you are out.

But its totally within their character. Travellers are by their very nature counter-cultural. Its no surprise that when they do get involved with regulations in this manner they push it to breaking point if they don't get what they want. My point is that people who demand for law be broken to teach those who break the law a lesson are hypocrites...

Sewinman

Maxticate wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

I think theres something very hypocritical about disliking a group of people because they don't adhere to the rules set by the authority, and then demanding that the authority change the rules to teach them a lesson.

Is it not hypocritical to wish to live outside of society in general but then choose to use its own rules to support you when it suits you? You shouldn't be able to pick and choose at the bits of society you want. You're either in, and you pay for it or you are out.

So in your world anyone with a planning dispute is living outside of society and has no legal rights?

Maxticate

Sewinman wrote:

So in your world anyone with a planning dispute is living outside of society and has no legal rights?

Point to the bit where I said that, or referred to planning disputes, or even to legal rights in general.

W1

notsoblue wrote:

Maxticate wrote:

Is it not hypocritical to wish to live outside of society in general but then choose to use its own rules to support you when it suits you? You shouldn't be able to pick and choose at the bits of society you want. You're either in, and you pay for it or you are out.

But its totally within their character. Travellers are by their very nature counter-cultural. Its no surprise that when they do get involved with regulations in this manner they push it to breaking point if they don't get what they want. My point is that people who demand for law be broken to teach those who break the law a lesson are hypocrites...

Who's demanding that?

What I think has happened in these particular circumstances is that the council pussy footed around trying to avoid being seen as anti-traveller. So they didn't "get heavy" early, but rather diligently listened to and allowed various appeals etc etc, whereas what should have been done is the rather simpler planning fashion of appeal, rejection, enforcement - done. That's how you or I would be treated. Otherwise why don't all planning issues take 10 years to resolve? In this case the law has been found to be broken - as it was when this all started.

There is a general fear of the travelling community by the authorities - there are police forces who will not enter traveller sites.

My view is that the policing of the London riots followed a similar thought process - too scared of being labelled as racists or brutal to go in hard and early, with the result that the eventual enforcement took much longer and involved many more people and much more expense.

Sewinman

Maxticate wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

So in your world anyone with a planning dispute is living outside of society and has no legal rights?

Point to the bit where I said that, or referred to planning disputes, or even to legal rights in general.

I inferred that that is what you meant by living outside of society i.e. they had chosen not to obey planning laws and therefore chosen to ignore that part of living in a society. So what are you referring to then when you say they are living outside of society?

rick_chasey

http://www.jrf.org.uk/publications/prov ... ous-spaces

notsoblue

W1 wrote:

Who's demanding that?

Gazzaput. And you suggest similar measures below.

W1 wrote:

What I think has happened in these particular circumstances is that the council pussy footed around trying to avoid being seen as anti-traveller. So they didn't "get heavy" early, but rather diligently listened to and allowed various appeals etc etc, whereas what should have been done is the rather simpler planning fashion of appeal, rejection, enforcement - done. That's how you or I would be treated. Otherwise why don't all planning issues take 10 years to resolve? In this case the law has been found to be broken - as it was when this all started.

There is a general fear of the travelling community by the authorities - there are police forces who will not enter traveller sites.

My view is that the policing of the London riots followed a similar thought process - too scared of being labelled as racists or brutal to go in hard and early, with the result that the eventual enforcement took much longer and involved many more people and much more expense.

This is what I mean: "hard and early", "get heavy". You keep claiming that its political correctness or liberal sensitivities that are preventing the authorities from what you suggest to be the right thing, when in actual fact its the law or simple logistics. The riots couldn't have been dealt with more efficiently by using rubber bullets or water cannons, and these travellers couldn't have been dealt with better by simply ignoring process and bulldozing their houses.

Rioters, anarchists, travellers, they're all outliers on our normality curve. You only serve to devalue the societal framework we all appreciate if you break rules to "deal" with them.

Whats happening now with regards to police action to allow bailliffs in is perfectly fine. More money has been spent than should have been, but that happens sometimes. Thats life. People always try to game the system. And in this case the system does appear to be winning.

MonkeyMonster

jeez louise I haven't read all the comments but quite frankly its an almost identical foray into wot I think of you and your views as the last one with W1, Sew and NotSoBlue...

It's the internet, you all lose.

It's a bike forum ffs, not speakers corner.

notsoblue

MonkeyMonster wrote:

jeez louise I haven't read all the comments but quite frankly its an almost identical foray into wot I think of you and your views as the last one with W1, Sew and NotSoBlue...

It's the internet, you all lose.

It's a bike forum ffs, not speakers corner.

Ignore the thread?

Clever Pun

Has their been and vids of white middle class kids with dreads getting tasered yet?

that's what this thread needs... more taser.

lost_in_thought

Clever Pun wrote:

Has their been and vids of white middle class kids with dreads getting tasered yet?

that's what this thread needs... more taser.

The lighter way to enjoy eviction?

Clever Pun

lost_in_thought wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

Has their been and vids of white middle class kids with dreads getting tasered yet?

that's what this thread needs... more taser.

The lighter way to enjoy eviction?

and why not...

I'm sure biondino is screaming "racist" somewhere

Oh and before anyone starts it's not the eviction I give a flying fu<k about it's the activists getting a shoeing that raises a smile

lost_in_thought

Clever Pun wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

Has their been and vids of white middle class kids with dreads getting tasered yet?

that's what this thread needs... more taser.

The lighter way to enjoy eviction?

and why not...

I'm sure biondino is screaming "racist" somewhere

Yup. See twitter.

Clever Pun

I saw that, and was having absolutly nothing to do with that particular clusterfuck

jonginge

I stayed well away

Anyway, moretaser. Good name for a band?

lost_in_thought

I was disappointed at the lack of ranting to be honest, frankly I'd expected better.

I think we should get brun to adapt the malteser logo into moretaser. We'll make a fortune selling tshirts.

jonginge

wikipedia wrote:

The Australian version also contains the line: "Made in Australia... ...exported to the world."

:shock:

greg66_tri_v2.0

Meh.

Wait for nightfall, then apply a light smattering of machinegun fire, and the site should be clear by daybreak.

What's all the fuss about?

jonginge

Your method won't work. Have you not seen predator? They were travellers

Soak site in water, deploy sharktopus?

greg66_tri_v2.0

JonGinge wrote:

Your method won't work. Have you not seen predator? They were travellers

Soak site in water, deploy sharktopus?

Like.

Perhaps with The Mighty Kong running a flanking manoeuvre.

The Real Radioactiveman

Best way to get them down would be for everyone to withdraw from the site for a brew and leave some assorted gnomes,garden furniture,farm machinery within the protestors eyeline. Wait til they climb down from their stolen scaffold fortress and then bulldoze the spot while they have their backs turned

Failing that an accident involving a generator a cable and the scaffold fortress .

Seriously though I cant believe the naivety of people that think these people are oppressed. I am sure there are nice ones but where the flufff do you get the money to drive round in a nice audi/merc/bmw and pay for everything with big wedges of cash? If I got every bit of tax back since I was 18 I couldnt live like they do and I am paid pretty well these days.

They get it from charging your nan £5000 for painting her driveway balck and calling it tarmac then frog marching her to a cashpoint everyday for a week.

PS I read all the thread btw , particular interest due to the high proportion of "travellers/gypsies/organised criminals/fraudsters) in my area.

W1

notsoblue wrote:

This is what I mean: "hard and early", "get heavy". You keep claiming that its political correctness or liberal sensitivities that are preventing the authorities from what you suggest to be the right thing, when in actual fact its the law or simple logistics. The riots couldn't have been dealt with more efficiently by using rubber bullets or water cannons, and these travellers couldn't have been dealt with better by simply ignoring process and bulldozing their houses.

If it were "the law or simple logistics" which caused the long running dispute then each and every planning application would take 10 years to resolve. Of course that isn't the case. The fact remains that this has gone on for a decade - why? Because of namby-pambyism right at the start. You or I would not be afforded the same treatment, I can assure you.

I'm not proposing that laws are broken or due process isn't followed to deal with this problem. On the contrary, I'm suggesting that additional leniency was given to the travellers - in effect the exact opposite of what you think my position is.

sketchley

Newspapers this morning saying most travellers left the site before yesterday and those that remind less than a quarter were non-violent. All the problems and issues came from protesters who were not and never were residents. You have to ask yourself were the protesters actually protesting and trying to make a point of did they just fancy a ruck with the police?

Aerozine50

Well given that this bunch of itinerants have now been moved on, the local crime rate will fall, lead will be left on church roofs and railway lines and cabling companies will have less to fear from the scrap metal fairies. Also the real land works companies can get on with their legitimate jobs, as opposed to the cowboys who go around tarmacing drives.

An easier option would have just been to have used a Paveway 4 LGB I think and do society a favour.

Dons Asbestos coveralls and awaits incoming counterbattery fire.

Paul