Do I need more power???

Mike67

Yes, I know you can never have enough but...

I'm doing cross this season and have been doing regular turbo sessions interpersed with rides whenever I get chance.

Turbo is normally a session of 2x20 and another one of 4x5 intervals and the rides are between 30 and 40 miles with around 2000 feet or so of climb, normally 1 per week.
The race is then on the Saturday.

Thing is during races I average around 166 BPM (my max is around 186 or so) so I'm putting effort in but struggling for pace (and seem to be getting slower )....with my breathing seemingly failing me first. I'm not sure if it's just pushing the heart rate too high though with breathing struggling shortly afterwards (if that's possible).

Am I just too weedy and need more leg power so my heart/lungs don't have to work so hard or do I need to improve cardio/vascular do you think.
Time wise I can't fit in more than I do now so is it just not enough and/or the wrong kind of stuff...or do I just keep plugging away and it'll come good eventually.

I know it may be 'how long the piece of string is' etc but any pointers what to target would be appreciated.

BeaconRuth

Sounds like you're doing about 4 hours a week? I'm afraid that's not much compared to many of the guys who'll be flying past you in cyclocross races. Expect the best guys to be training daily and even twice a day in some cases. Those who aren't doing that amount might be coming off a season of good-level road racing - so ask yourself what your basic fitness is like. Are you able to keep up with the local chaingang? Are you doing 20mph or so on your 30-40mile rides? At what level have you been riding/racing/training all summer?

Also, have a think about the nature of a 'cross race: 2x20mins and 4x5mins are probably not the best sessions for 'cross. I know the races are very 'full-on' but you do get bits of respite in between some really hard, intensive bursts for short climbs etc. There aren't many times, if any, when you get as much as 5 minutes worth of absolutely constant effort - instead you've got to go into the red and recover repeatedly. Repeated 10sec bursts might be more the thing, with, say, just 10sec recovery.

Ruth

Mike67

Thanks for the input Ruth

Too weedy it is then

I'm not looking to beat the big guys or girls...far from it...and fat chance
Just trying to figure out why my pace doesn't seem to be improving on the back of what I'm doing during the week.

As you say it's probably not enough, but not sure why I'm getting worse as surely any is better than none.

I'll give shorter sprint intervals a go and get some longer spells in on the turbo at least.

As for speeds etc...my average solo over that distance/climb is around 18mph. Summer was regular TTs with similar training levels, when I did improve...guess that's due to the more sustained efforts required.

Like I say..not looking to set the World alight....just get a bit better.

BeaconRuth

How do you know you are getting worse? (And, conversely, how will you know when you are getting better?) It's not always easy to get a clear picture of progress in 'cross because every course is different, different riders turn up and everyone rides differently on different courses too. In my case I can appear to be going relatively well one week on a straightforward course, only to arrive at a tricky technical course the next week and suddenly appear to go backwards relative to the competition. It's not my fitness that's at fault in the second week compared to the first! Unfortunately it's not like time trialling where it's much easier to measure progress, especially if you race regularly on the same course.

Like in most aspects of cycle sport, you've got to put a significant amount of additional work in to make noticeable progress. This is going to sound a bit harsh but........ if you're doing roughly the same amount of training as you've been doing all summer why should you see any improvement at all?

And forget the "too weedy" stuff. You've got to be pretty hard to even get out there and tackle a cyclocross race - don't do yourself down! 'Cross ain't for wimps!

Ruth

Monty Dog

My HR read out from CX is usually an average of 90%, anything that feels like a 'rest' was 85% and there were frequent spells in excess of 95% and therefore suggest that if you haven't been training at threshold, it probably explains why you feel it's hard. However, don't try to do more than 1-2 high intensity sessions in a week as you'll simply wear yourself out - if one of those is a race on Saturday then suggest you keep the other for Tuesday to give you enough recovery for race day.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Mike67 wrote:

As you say it's probably not enough, but not sure why I'm getting worse as surely any is better than none.

Putting aside the variations in the technical elements and courses, as Ruth says, if you are just doing the same thing all the time, then improvement will plateau.

When stagnation happens, to improve you need to change the training.

Now changing the routine is one thing (swapping sessions around, doing different types of interval sets etc) and might give you a bit of a hit for a while (which is a good thing), but ultimately to improve further you'll need to train more.

With races like cross, there's also the technical elements that need practice as well, and that takes time too.

Or you could buy a new bike. That always makes you faster for a week or two

sheffsimon

When I was racing cross (long time ago) I used to train with 3 or 4 others, doing a road circuit with 4 flat-out sprints in it, and we used to do 5 laps of that. Circuit was probably a mile and a half long.

We also used to train on a field, doing sprints up a grass bank, same number of efforts, each approx 10 seconds.

Old-school intervals, hurt like hell, but effective.

Mike67

Thanks folks.

Not sure the new bike idea would be that popular with Mrs B

Lots of information to take in there but as Ruth first mentioned and has been re-iterated, short intervals would replicate more closely what happens in a 'cross race. Last weekend for instance I reckon the longest full out effort was around a minute or so...uphill

It's spurred me on to try something different so thanks again.

I can only base my performance on the results of others around me who I 'normally' finish close to, then again, they may be training more and getting better.

This is all strictly midfield you understand ...just as competitve but not quite as fast as the front
My other measure of performance being how late on in the race I get lapped...I know all the top riders better from the back

VamP

Mike67 wrote:

It's spurred me on to try something different so thanks again.

I can only base my performance on the results of others around me who I 'normally' finish close to, then again, they may be training more and getting better.

This is all strictly midfield you understand ...just as competitve but not quite as fast as the front
My other measure of performance being how late on in the race I get lapped...I know all the top riders better from the back

I am in the same boat as you. Beware that lap length has a big influence on how long it takes the leaders to lap you, so again not a consistent method to evaluate yourself.

I have only started cycling this year, and this is my first CX season. I love it more than I thought was possible. My plan is to ride out this season doing more or less what I am doing. About 10 hours of training a week. One focused interval session mid-week. Gather experience. Improve technique.

Next year, I will build an annual training programme, aimed at delivering peak fitness for mid-CX season. My road season will be secondary.

Oh yeah, and I am saving up for some tubs.

GiantMike

From my 4 finishes this year I have finished between 20th and 30th, so I'm guessing that the nature of the course and differences in who else turns up may be having an effect.

Training wise, I do mid-week intervals (5 x 3-7 mins with proper recovery between each) and a long ride or 2. For such a short race I don't think there's much benefit to doing longer distances too often, I think you'd be better focussing on 'race-intensity intervals' where you will feel 'proper f*cked' at the end of the session.

There is a recommended CX-specific workout of 30 secs max power, 30 secs recovery and 30 secs running. For an hour. This apparently replicates racing. It doesn't replicate mine. Mine would be more like 2 mins flat out, 15 secs rest, 3 mins flat out, 30 secs rest, repeated for race duration. But it's difficult to keep up this intensity outside of races, hence the interval training as my preferred option.