Cotic Soul - Why So Good?

ilovedirt

supersonic wrote:

The carbon 456 is a great frame, passes the toughest CEN tests, and the rest will follow this eventually. Even if they charge £800, still a hell of a lot cheaper than a ti frame.

At the end of the day though, it's all about the geometry, I wouldn't buy a carbon frame is the geometry was wrong, regardless of how light/strong it is. With the carbon 456, i wouldn't buy one because for that money, there are frames out there with better geo (for what I'd like).

supersonic

Of course if you don't like the geo you wouldn't buy it, but I wouldn't call it a universal problem with this frame. It is right for very many!

Northwind

ilovedirt, what do you want it to do?

The Spiderman

Sonic is defintely on to something and I think even with big players like Giant this is beginning this already.

Have a look at this year`s Giant TCR ,XTC and XTC 29er "composite" models for proof.
Basically its trickle down carbon technology form their higher level Advanced and SL carbon range,almost half their range are carbon now and they are offering carbon at the same level as some mnaufacturers aluminium offerings.

If the world`s biggest manufacuter is pushing more carbon,it can only lead to better economies of scale and carbon becoming cheaper.

I remember when aluminium was new and considered exotic!

ilovedirt

Northwind wrote:

ilovedirt, what do you want it to do?

Mainly just the top tube being very long, even with a short stem it's a little bit too long for the gravity bike that it's marketed as (or at least to me)

Si1988

The Spiderman wrote:

Have a look at this year`s Giant TCR ,XTC and XTC 29er "composite" models for proof.
Basically its trickle down carbon technology form their higher level Advanced and SL carbon range,almost half their range are carbon now and they are offering carbon at the same level as some mnaufacturers aluminium offerings.

If the world`s biggest manufacuter is pushing more carbon,it can only lead to better economies of scale and carbon becoming cheaper.

I remember when aluminium was new and considered exotic!

The bike tech world seems to make progress similar to that of the tech world. Ie. Intel and AMD know what theyre going to be selling you in 4 years time, they just wait for it to slowly trickle through, I daresay slowing down advancement and evolution in the technology to maintain this cycle and their business model.

I imagine that's what Giant and the likes are doing as we speak. They could probably afford to ship out their entire range 3 years from now in carbon, but why would people buy the top end bikes if there isnt a hugely discernable difference from the bottom?

It'd be nice to see the big companys react to a product like the 456c, it would create more choice for those in the know, but for the vast majority of people buying into the tech, they probably dont know the competition is even there.

On an aside, with the exception of on-one's 456, is anyone aware of any company that makes frames with identical geometry in all three flavours currently? I know it would be affected by HOW they put together each of the frames, but would be interesting to see a steel vs Ti vs carbon showdown of this sort.

ratty2k

Northwind wrote:

I wish Cy'd design a harder-core hardtail to go toe to toe with the Ragleys etc, I'd probably buy that.

BFe...?
http://www.cotic.co.uk/product/BFe

ddraver

OT - Blimey, where have you been Ratty?

Northwind

Fair dos ilovedirt, I can see how that could be annoying. Bike does feel a little long. Though weirdly doesn't climb like you'd expect from a long hardtail...

ratty2k wrote:

BFe...?
http://www.cotic.co.uk/product/BFe

Nah, geometry's the same as the Soul, it needs a big fork to slack it off. Whereas the Blue Pig from Ragley has great super-slack geometry but weighs as much as an anvil. I'd pay good money for a slacker Soul if it could keep the agility and overall excitable-labrador feel of the Soul.

styxd

Nah, geometry's the same as the Soul, it needs a big fork to slack it off. Whereas the Blue Pig from Ragley has great super-slack geometry but weighs as much as an anvil. I'd pay good money for a slacker Soul if it could keep the agility and overall excitable-labrador feel of the Soul.

The best bit about the Soul/BFe is the geometry, its perfect (although obviously not with 160mm forks, but why would you want them)

blablablacksheep

this is a interesting topic.

At first i was 100% set on buying a FS bike(canyon xc7) but after seeing some of the hardtail rides around my local i truely believe a good hardtail frame can handle pretty much as good as a FS bar jumping ofc

Question is which frame, like sonic said carbon is becoming cheaper but i think many people have that idea of "its carbon if i hit a rock the frame KOed GG"

this may be a untrue but it remains in peoples minds.

Steel i believe does bring up the "springy feel" but is it really "springy" or just imagination of the rider?

I watching this topic closely as currently i stuck on the question of steel hardtail 853 /on-one 456 carbon or a typical ALO canyon AL8.......

atm it does seem like steel is over priced compared to carbon and ALO, given with a steel bike i cannot get the same value compared to the other two....so is the so called "springy feel" worth the extra £200 odd quid for a build?

bails87

Depends. put 2.4" tyres and 150mm of travel on a bike and I don't know how much 'spring' will be left

Northwind

styxd wrote:

The best bit about the Soul/BFe is the geometry, its perfect (although obviously not with 160mm forks, but why would you want them)

No such thing as perfect... Soul has brilliant, balanced handling but once things get properly steep and quick, that's not such an asset. BFe's tough enough for pretty much any use you could imagine but still has the same geometry so people end up sticking big forks in, which makes it pretty tall but also, when you hit something and compress the fork, there goes your slackness.

Soul's the best allround hardtail I've ever had but the Mmmbop had it beat fair and square on the descents. So I'd like the lightness and build quality and some of the lively character of the Soul, with overall geometry I'd be happier to take downhill racing. (no, not a Blue Pig X, still pretty weighty)

Closest I've found to that, is a C456 with an angle reducer headset in. But that makes for a longer bike.

delcol

northwind
have you ever looked at chromag frames. steel with good geo, dont know how they fare in the weight department cpmpared to ragley and cotic.

big hitter is the stylus
http://www.chromagbikes.com/frames/stylus
and mid tav is the apeture
http://www.chromagbikes.com/frames/aperature

supersonic

5.65lbs for the Aperture.

6.6lbs for the Stylus.

Soul is 4.4lbs, BFe 5.4lbs.

This sort of reinforces my earlier point, people are going to look at the 3.5lbs 456 in carbon and take the massive weight saving.

blablablacksheep

the only issue i think with carbon is the amount of beating it can take,

You tend to hear these stories of carbon bikes having small dents turning into a good night frame problems.

So with this in mind Carbon does seem like it needs more attention and TLC, but in the long term it does seem like the winner given the weight and stiffness you getting for your money.

chromag look pretty good, there was a video posting of one of their HTs doing a downhill course which looked insane.

ratty2k

ddraver wrote:

OT - Blimey, where have you been Ratty?

here, there, nowhere...

And Sonic, I know its relative, but come on 2lb 'massive'? I could shit more than that after a night on curry and beer.
Carry a bit less fluid, a lighter jacket etc and you'd have made the same 'massive' difference.

ddraver

ah i ve missed your scary avatar!

Northwind

ratty2k wrote:

Carry a bit less fluid, a lighter jacket etc and you'd have made the same 'massive' difference.

Or do both and save even more :? You need to carry a litre less water to make that difference, that's a lot. And weight on the bike is not the same as weight on the body.

ddraver

Gah! I never said that!

Northwind

Double gah! And edit!

bails87

blablablacksheep wrote:

the only issue i think with carbon is the amount of beating it can take,

You tend to hear these stories of carbon bikes having small dents turning into a good night frame problems.

So with this in mind Carbon does seem like it needs more attention and TLC, but in the long term it does seem like the winner given the weight and stiffness you getting for your money.

http://www.carboncyclerepairs.co.uk


to



Small dents eh......

ratty2k

Northwind wrote:

ratty2k wrote:

Carry a bit less fluid, a lighter jacket etc and you'd have made the same 'massive' difference.

Or do both and save even more :? You need to carry a litre less water to make that difference, that's a lot. And weight on the bike is not the same as weight on the body.

Maybe not, but to the vast majority of riders, is 2lb in weight going to make that much difference? I doubt it, who really cares if you are a few seconds slower up a climb- unless you're racing I cant see it being the be all and end all....
Get a frame you like the handling of, I've owned a C456, and sold it fairly quickly... Front was very light on climbs (i found) and the mech hanger arrangement bent very easily on the first ride out after a stone hit the mech whilst on a farm track.
I aint an on-one hater either, had plenty of their frames over the years.
My BFe feels much better to me to ride than the C456 and is heavier, but I'm not too worried...

ilovedirt

Northwind wrote:

Fair dos ilovedirt, I can see how that could be annoying. Bike does feel a little long. Though weirdly doesn't climb like you'd expect from a long hardtail...

Yeah, if it had a slightly shorter TT, it would be perfect for me for a bit of trail thrashing. However it's still a decent bike, especially for the outlay.

supersonic

When people are debating 10s of grams with stems and rims, I'd say a 1000 of them is pretty big!

ratty2k

yer, but those debating how to shave a gram here and there mostly need to get a life!
I've seen people asking about aluminium backed brake pads because they are lighter... FFS!
I still say that to the vast majority of riders, 2lb will make little to no difference to their riding. If you aint racing, then 10th's of a second dont matter neither do full seconds either TBH, you are supposed to be enjoying a ride with mates!

noggsy

Is the Soul that great, better than all the others, I'm not so sure.

I had a Soul and a 456 at the same time and although different in ride characteristics I didn't think the difference was enough to justify the (at the time) £250 difference in frame costs. Sometimes I preferred the Soul sometimes the 456. In the end the Soul went as that's the bike I could get more money for.

I now have a aluminium Whyte 905 which I prefer over the pair of them.


all IMO

Northwind

Yup- and lighter bikes are fun! I can stick my 25lb C456 places I can't put my 35lb full suss, it's a lot more agile. Nothing to do with 10ths of a second or faster climbing, just about the handling of the bike. And when you can get it with no disadvantage, well, why not?

Not talking about geometry here obviously, just comparing like with like- a carbon Cotic could be lighter than a Soul, as compliant as a Soda, and stronger (for most purposes) than a BFe. Then you could swap the dropouts and have a Simple, if you're a spaz

njee20

To me carbon is the ultimate frame material. The forming here allows you to do things that are impossible with metals, can be made with better strength/weight ratio then any metal: and with prices tumbling will be the material of choice for almost all high end frames soon. Why pay £1300 for a ti frame when you can get a stronger, lighter carbon one for half the price?

Titanium used to be the high end material of choice, but today I just can't think of a good reason for it to stay there.

I think that summed it up perfectly to be honest!

Whilst I suspect other manufacturers will cotton onto the carbon long-travel hardtail (a la c456) it's quite a UK specific niche, so don't expect to see Specialized et al chomping at the bit for what is a very limited market.

blablablacksheep

canyon are making a 29" carbon which sounds very interesting, best of both worlds.

I think Ti will allways be around tbh as it does absorb a lot of the little bumps that the other materials dont seem to absorb so it makes for a great hardtail frame.

But for most riders Ti is out of their reach bar the few cheap ones like rock lobster ect,so carbon does seem the logical choice for most hardtail use.