Police ask for proof of bike ownership in Preston

richred_uk

One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is that this is happening in Preston, a city that just had a spate of bike thefts with violence - so I suspect it's a short term response to a particular local problem.

http://road.cc/content/news/45732-three-violent-thefts-bikes-preston-many-hours-police-say-incidents-not-linked

ooermissus

Wouldn't it be better for police to target people selling bikes? You can onto gumtree and find 20 similar bikes being sold over a period of time, by people with different names but the same mobile number, and with a variation of two or three crappy reasons for the sale ("Not taking it with me when I'm going to college etc.). Not difficult for the police to stop people who are obviously either stealing large numbers of bikes with a modern spec, or selling them on behalf of a serial thief.

jimmypippa

What's wrong with the police saying that if they see a man riding a child's bike, that they'll ask him for proof of ownership?

sketchley

jimmypippa wrote:

What's wrong with the police saying that if they see a man riding a child's bike, that they'll ask him for proof of ownership?

The assumption that the burden of proof is on the citizen. When legally it is not. And, about freedom to do as one wished (why shouldn't I be allowed to own and ride a childs bike) and being innocent until proven otherwise.

edenchristopher

Legally, you're right but in practice it's awkward stance to criticise the police for challenging individuals who they think might be up to no good.

RoadyForever

I welcome it, I can prove ownership on the spot via pulling the order confirmation up on my phone, or I could pop home and get bank statements. Bike theft is a real pet hate of mine and many others and casual attitude by most when they see bikes getting nicked and then saying it's there fault for buying an expensive bike??? I was actually advised by a police officer recently to not leave my new bike in a public place when I asked about bike marking, I hate to say it but that is my best bet right now.

Which reminds me, does anyone know a good and well recognised security marking scheme that works on carbon frames?

Andrew N

richred_uk wrote:

One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is that this is happening in Preston, a city that just had a spate of bike thefts with violence - so I suspect it's a short term response to a particular local problem.

http://road.cc/content/news/45732-three-violent-thefts-bikes-preston-many-hours-police-say-incidents-not-linked

My understanding from the discussion I had with Lancashire Police was that they were stopping cyclists in particular areas of Preston - Fulwood and surrounding areas was mentioned

Initialised

I think I have a photo of the frame number on my phone I guess that and SPD pedals and shoes would be enough. But I think in general it's a good idea to stop and check people who ride wrong or look wrong on the bike.

greg66_tri_v2.0

RoadyForever wrote:

I welcome it, I can prove ownership on the spot via pulling the order confirmation up on my phone, or I could pop home and get bank statements.

No you couldn't. Because popping home is not "on the spot".

So, you have to go home to get your bank statements. PC Plod says in that case he is going to confiscate your bike, and you can come and reclaim it later.

You're ten miles from home, with no money and in lycra and bike shoes.

Still welcome it?

[BTW: an order confirmation confirms you placed an order. It doesn't prove that you completed the order. For that you need a receipt.]

Initialised

If you're dressed for riding and riding properly why would they suspect you of bike theft?

They will be targeting people who look out of place or models that have been reported stolen.

Torvid

Initialised wrote:

If you're dressed for riding and riding properly why would they suspect you of bike theft?

They will be targeting people who look out of place or models that have been reported stolen.

wont this lead to CATILs (chav's and toerags in lycra)

although it would make hiding the bolt cutters harder.

mudcow007

true story

About 8 years ago me an a mate were standing at a Petrol garage with our bikes filling up with lucozade an other sugary goodness. When a Police car pulls up an the copper get out an says "where did you get them bikes"

to which we reply "Christmas presents"

His reply "oh well someone must love you then" an then he drove off

bearing in mind this was a few days after Christmas day i thought it was a bit odd

(I like the Police by the way i'm not having a go at them etc!!)

veronese68

ooermissus wrote:

Wouldn't it be better for police to target people selling bikes? You can onto gumtree and find 20 similar bikes being sold over a period of time, by people with different names but the same mobile number, and with a variation of two or three crappy reasons for the sale ("Not taking it with me when I'm going to college etc.). Not difficult for the police to stop people who are obviously either stealing large numbers of bikes with a modern spec, or selling them on behalf of a serial thief.

This wouild make more sense. Catching someone selling multiple bikes under different names they can show that the person is up to no good. They obviously know the bikes are stolen, why else use assumed names. If they catch someone riding a stolen bike they can claim all sorts of reasons for not knowing it's stolen. So probably harder to get a conviction.
However I suspect it's only a small percentage of cyclists that are actually being stopped. Spotting the unwitting but gullible enthusiast that has bought a bargain on Ebay may well be harder.

DonDaddyD

Several problems:

(i) This works on the assumption that the police officer can be convinced by your explanation that you own the bike. Selective/subjective opinion doesn't set a standard or consistent precedent. Therefore it will quickly become one rule for one person and another rule for someone else.

(ii) Why should I need to be "dressed for riding". I can wear what I want when riding. If I want to wear trainers and ride my bike that has SPD-sl I have the right and freedom to do so.

(iii) What if I cannot prove that I own the bike? I'm not required by law to carry proof of ownership. I'm not, by law, required to keep stored away any proof of ownership. Therefore I shouldn't have to live in fear that my bike will be confiscated because in someones opinion I don't look like someone who would own my bike.

(iv) What if I simply don't look the part? Riding through Camberwell on a £2000 bike in baggys and a T-shirt.

CiB

The idea is good; its implementation sounds lousy and overly officious. In the real world it'd be nice to think that the old copper's sixth sense would kick in and allow plod to quickly arrive at the right decision - i.e. on yer way squire, or cuff him quick and push the scrote down the police station steps, accidentally.

Acceptable evidence is deemed to be a photo of yourself astride your gleaming beast. Solved then - a pic of yourself added to the Me and My Commuting Bike thread on here, or upload one to your own web space / FlickR / MySpaceFacePlaceGoogle+Book and you're ok, assuming that Plod or yourself has the means to go on t'internet when he pulls you over as as dodgy looking cove on a too-nice-for-you-matey-boy bike.

nation

Initialised wrote:

If you're dressed for riding and riding properly why would they suspect you of bike theft?

They will be targeting people who look out of place or models that have been reported stolen.

Spoken like a person that has never been stopped, detained and searched for no reason.

The police do not exactly have a shining track record when it comes to appropriately exercising broad discretionary powers.

mudcow007

just thinking then i have also been stopped for "riding at night with a back pack on" I Had been working in a pub during my college days when i was stopped. The Policeman was polite though and just said "you don't get many people cycling at 3am around here"

to be honest anything that could possibly stop or discourage toe rags from stealing bikes is good in my view

if you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't be that bothered if Police want to talk to you

Kieran_Burns

mudcow007 wrote:

if you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't be that bothered if Police want to talk to you

You cannot even begin to comprehend how annoyed I get when I hear this line...

"if you have nothing to hide..."

FFS.

rick_chasey

mudcow007 wrote:

if you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't be that bothered if Police want to talk to you

Being stopped and searched is a pretty humiliating process.

CiB

Kieran_Burns wrote:

mudcow007 wrote:

if you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't be that bothered if Police want to talk to you

You cannot even begin to comprehend how annoyed I get when I hear this line...

"if you have nothing to hide..."

FFS.

Put me down for a +lots on that one. Slippery slope & all that. FFS indeed.

Bi50N

My bike is the wallpaper to my phone, and I have a few other pictures of it on there as well.

I would be pretty confident that that would be enough.

As to whether I would keep my temper is another thing if it happened to me, but I guess it really depends on how they target suspicious people.

I have seen people in London with bikes that immediately raise suspicion - e.g. someone in civvies with a very expensive road bike with the saddle far too low.

I think if common sense and due process is applied to the targeting, we shouldn't be too worried - after all isn't good targeting also known as 'detection?'

I feel this could be a useful skill for a Policeman to have - rather than say, hitting people with batons, tipping off the press and filling paperwork.

nation

Kieran_Burns wrote:

mudcow007 wrote:

if you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't be that bothered if Police want to talk to you

You cannot even begin to comprehend how annoyed I get when I hear this line...

"if you have nothing to hide..."

FFS.

Glad it's not just me then.

I'd also point out that in this instance it isn't "the police wanting to talk to you", it's "the police taking your property and more than likely leaving you stranded when you presumably have somewhere to be".

kieranb

Under what law are they allowed to take the bike?

I have built up all of my bikes so I don't have any receipts for any of them. I even sometimes cycle my bikes in ordinary clothing and shoes, imagine that!

sketchley

kieranb wrote:

Under what law are they allowed to take the bike?

I have built up all of my bikes so I don't have any receipts for any of them. I even sometimes cycle my bikes in ordinary clothing and shoes, imagine that!

My guess is they have ground to suspect you of handling stolen goods or worse theft then they can arrest you and confiscate the goods. If they don't have good reason to suspect then it wrongful arrest.

I have no idea what you constitute suspicion in this case.

Kieran_Burns

Sketchley wrote:

kieranb wrote:

Under what law are they allowed to take the bike?

I have built up all of my bikes so I don't have any receipts for any of them. I even sometimes cycle my bikes in ordinary clothing and shoes, imagine that!

My guess is they have ground to suspect you of handling stolen goods or worse theft then they can arrest you and confiscate the goods. If they don't have good reason to suspect then it wrongful arrest.

I have no idea what you constitute suspicion in this case.

'Loitering with intent to use a pedestrian crossing.'

'smelling of foreign food'

'Urinating in a public convenience or 'Coughing without due care and attention.'

Walking on the cracks in the pavement,' 'Walking in a loud shirt in a built-up area during the hours of darkness,' and 'Walking around with an offensive wife.'

il_principe

Wrath Rob wrote:

Too much mis-informed gumpf on here. Read the article!


Proof of ownership


Acceptable documentation
Acceptable documentation regarding ownership is a receipt, a photograph of the rider on the bike

Which genius thought this up?

So nick the bike. Snap a pic of you on the bike and you're done.

The whole thing is ridiculous.

cee

is it really all a storm in a teacup and just theatre of policing though?

in my experience...the police know exactly who the local scrotes are....they just rarely catch them in the act....

as someone else said....sounds like a good way to put a message out that people who look suspicious will be questioned, especially given the recent spate of bike thefts in those areas....or from people suspected to live in those areas......

so when bad boy johnny wants to ride around on the bike he has either just nicked, or indeed bought from someone who he knows nicked it.....then he is likely to get stopped and questioned about it....and probably have it confiscated.

I am pretty sure that most people on here could detail every last scratch, dent and ding on their bikes....and how and where they got there.

Kieran_Burns

cee wrote:

I am pretty sure that most people on here could detail every last scratch, dent and ding on their bikes....and how and where they got there.

Yes, I could; but there is absolutely no reason why I should

vorsprung

It's an interesting one. Do I have receipts etc for all my bikes?

The new Carbon one, yes
The Roadrat, don't think so
The Orbea, I did have all the stuff in a folder but I haven't seen it for years.

Maybe I should be a bit more organized

Are any of them insured? Nope. I do have an array of insurance grade locks however.

The Rookie

Do I have a receipt for a bike I built up from individual components?

No but I could tell them just about every nut and bolt on it, even how much it weighs for most of them!

I suspect in reality that the Police will be looking at 'body language' of people when stopped, and their immediate reply, of course that won't recover any bikes where the rider believes they are the owner having bought a bike stolen by someone else!

Simon