Getting away from the 'norm'.

briantrumpet

davylear wrote:

Wow, what a fiery thread.

Dare I ask how Cannondale goes down as they seem to have escaped comment so far.

Norm doesn't ride a Cannondale.

Chip \'oyler

SLX01 wrote:

ready2burn wrote:

This company seemingly make some of the most beautiful bikes i have ever seen!!

http://www.comtat.co.uk/

If money was no object i would certainly get one... and i bet you wouldn't see that many on the road either.

And bashing Trek and Specialized is like saying... 'phhft all i ever see is people with iPods. you can get an mp3 player for cheaper with the same storage'.... well may be, but people buy iPods for a reason. They work brilliantly, the company is fantastic, there is great customer service, and they look good. But i suppose working on your logic this is sinful!

Welcome to the Forum

You can get a similar frame for $330 from China

http://www.flyxii.com/products_1.asp?menuid=308&id=547

No you can't. Comtat's new frames are all handbuilt in Italy. The one you posted is nothing like them.

SLX01

Chip \'oyler wrote:

SLX01 wrote:

ready2burn wrote:

This company seemingly make some of the most beautiful bikes i have ever seen!!

http://www.comtat.co.uk/

If money was no object i would certainly get one... and i bet you wouldn't see that many on the road either.

And bashing Trek and Specialized is like saying... 'phhft all i ever see is people with iPods. you can get an mp3 player for cheaper with the same storage'.... well may be, but people buy iPods for a reason. They work brilliantly, the company is fantastic, there is great customer service, and they look good. But i suppose working on your logic this is sinful!

Welcome to the Forum

You can get a similar frame for $330 from China

http://www.flyxii.com/products_1.asp?menuid=308&id=547

No you can't. Comtat's new frames are all handbuilt in Italy. The one you posted is nothing like them.

How is a frame hand built in Italy nothing like a frame hand built in China apart from its factories post code?

rolf_f

SLX01 wrote:

How is a frame hand built in Italy nothing like a frame hand built in China apart from its factories post code?

The Chinese one comes out of a mould - Comtat are doing bespoke so those certainly don't come out of a mould. Probably they are all made by hand. Doesn't necessarily make the bike better in terms of handling/weight etc but at least you are paying for something that the cheap frames can't claim even if it is somewhat intangible. Compare that to a high end moulded frame and what you get actually get for your money there beyond branding becomes harder to determine.

inseine

I'm sure the Italian made frames come out of a mould. They are not made from tubes.

kev77

this discussion is terrible

Escadrille Ecosse

All carbon fibre frames are hand made and all come out of a mould or moulds. You can't make a hollow composite structure without using moulds of some sort. Even is the CF frame is made up from tubes, the tubes are made in a mould. Although if someone makes a CF frame up from separate tubes, like a welded metal structure, then they don't have a clue about working with composites to best effect.

rolf_f

inseine wrote:

I'm sure the Italian made frames come out of a mould. They are not made from tubes.

I think it would cost a lot more than 2k to make a made to measure monocoque.

Escadrille - you need to read up on carbon frame design unless you think you know more about how to make carbon frames than the likes of Colnago or Time

Escadrille Ecosse

Rolf F

Escadrille - you need to read up on carbon frame design unless you think you know more about how to make carbon frames than the likes of Colnago or Time Wink

@Rolf, wouldn't dream of trying to make a decent bike frame (or cr*ppy one for that matter), out of CF or anything else. My point was more about how the composite technology works. I have built a couple of cars out of composites though

rolf_f

Escadrille Ecosse wrote:

I have built a couple of cars out of composites though

Now you're just showing off

SLX01

Escadrille Ecosse wrote:

All carbon fibre frames are hand made and all come out of a mould or moulds. You can't make a hollow composite structure without using moulds of some sort. Even is the CF frame is made up from tubes, the tubes are made in a mould. Although if someone makes a CF frame up from separate tubes, like a welded metal structure, then they don't have a clue about working with composites to best effect.

Exactly my point, thank you!

inseine

Rolf

I think it would cost a lot more than 2k to make a made to measure monocoque

Without sounding rude, I don't know what this means and I'm not sure you do either. You seem to be confusing hand made with made in a mould. Italy or china carbon bikes are hand laid up in a mould, in all but a very few cases. Not sure what 2k made to measure monocoques has to do with it

rolf_f

inseine wrote:

Rolf

I think it would cost a lot more than 2k to make a made to measure monocoque

Without sounding rude, I don't know what this means and I'm not sure you do either. You seem to be confusing hand made with made in a mould. Italy or china carbon bikes are hand laid up in a mould, in all but a very few cases. Not sure what 2k made to measure monocoques has to do with it

Well you are sounding rude. And I'm not confusing anything with anything taa very much. There is a big difference between a bike hand built from separate tubes and something layed up in a mould. The frames that Comtat make can be spec'd as made to measure. To make a monocoque to measure, you would have to construct a mould to match the dimensions of the bespoke build. This is extremely expensive which should be fairly obvious. As such, frames like Comtat are now selling are hand made using separate components in a manner analogous to how steel frames are made - either with visible lugs or not - though the results look similar to monocoques.

From what I heard (no idea of how accurate it is but no reason to think not unless someone else knows better) you can get a bespoke monocoque frame from Italy for about £10k.

My monocoque Ribble might say handcrafted on it but it is nowhere near as handcrafted as my lugged Look.

It's pretty straightforward really.

inseine

Fair enough, I just looked at the combat site and their top frames have pre formed tubes and wrapped lugs. Doesn't mean other frames arent hand made but there's obviously a different skill level involved in hand wrapping.

rolf_f

inseine wrote:

Fair enough, I just looked at the combat site and their top frames have pre formed tubes and wrapped lugs. Doesn't mean other frames arent hand made but there's obviously a different skill level involved in hand wrapping.

And of course, if they are truly bespoke, all sorts of issues arise over curved stays and different wheelbases etc. The Comtat frame shapes are fairly simple compared to a lot of monocoques. Anyone trying to make a Ribble Gran Fondo bespoke would have a hell of a time consuming job on their hands just on the seattube/top tube join alone!

ariba

DorsetKnob wrote:

Battaglin C11 - All Italian - Never ever seen another one!

Giovanni Battaglin is the only rider other than the great Eddy the Cannibal to win
both the Giro & Vuelta in the same year - now that is cool.

I think I own the only one of these in London also - never seen another. (I did see a Battaglin Start a couple of weeks ago). So in 18 months - i've seen two other Battaglins in London.

Does this count as cool?

Chip \'oyler

inseine wrote:

I'm sure the Italian made frames come out of a mould. They are not made from tubes.

You're wrong. They are made using the same manufacturing techniques as Viner's, tubes with hand wrapped joints.

Escadrille Ecosse

Rolf F wrote:

Escadrille Ecosse wrote:

I have built a couple of cars out of composites though

Now you're just showing off

yea you're right :oops: I'll get my coat

a full monocoque type design will be lighter/stronger but if it doesn't fit, what the heck.

inseine

You're wrong. They are made using the same manufacturing techniques as Viner's, tubes with hand wrapped joints.

I know, I said I'd got that one wrong several posts ago :oops: :oops: :oops: