Women competing in Men's competition

rebs

This appears to be much of a hot topic lately.

I don't watch much womens racing but know enough to recognise the usual suspects in these races. I think womens cycling is always going to be much smaller in terms of prize/coverage then Mens race. these reasons alll have their good and badd factors.

But if several women wish to be treated in equal terms as the Men. Would their be any scope for woman to move over to Men's teams if they are indeed strong enough?

If this would happen. Would any women who currently race stand much of a chance to even compete? Short answer tells me no this would not happen but I'm interested to hear other views on the subject.

LeicesterLad

I am not a sexist person, and appreciate that Women have a case to be receiving equal rights in many walks of life, i do not wish to offend anybody but...

The Women are not, and will never be, strong enough to keep up with the men. and that is that.

cougie

There are a lot of good women around, but the best women aren't as strong as the best men. Simple as that.

andy_wrx

No-one told Beryl Burton that...

Liquorice Allsort anyone ?

sfichele

The above is not quite true! And you shouldn't be completely dismissive of the women.

In her time, Beryl Burton, was on a par with many of the men, beating some of them hands down in the long endurance events.

It was her experience that in short races the women couldn't perform equally with men due to strength. But in the longer races the gap was much closer.

Gypsum_Fantastic

andy_wrx wrote:

No-one told Beryl Burton that...

Liquorice Allsort anyone ?

He he he he good answer.

I may be wrong but isn't it true that, on average, men have larger hearts and wotnot that women therefore stronger / faster?

I relise that comparing men / womens cycling records is largely useless for confirming the above due to doping murkying the waters not to mention the fact that "average" individuals rarely hold records.

Any ideas?

jonginge

sfichele wrote:

The above is not quite true! And you shouldn't be completely dismissive of the women.

In her time, Beryl Burton, was on a par with many of the men, beating some of them hands down in the long endurance events.

It was her experience that in short races the women couldn't perform equally with men due to strength. But in the longer races the gap was much closer.

BB was awesome, holding the 12hr record for a while.

If you look at most athletics (incl. cycling, swimming) records the men are about 10% quicker than the women. That goes from 100m running sprints all the way up to Ironman triathlons, 24hrs etc.

RichN95.

If women could compete with men they would. But they can't, so they don't.

Daz555

If the women could perform at a similar level, why not. As they don't however, there is little point in them competing alongside.

KieranHardman

In rowing, the national teams for the men and women often train together, although you end up with the womens quad racing the mens double etc in order to normalize the times. This doesnt make the womens racing any more boring than the mens as it depends who you are racing. I think jsut before the 2008 olympics the Womens Quad raced an open mens event at a local regatta against good club standard rowers. They lost by a decent amount despite being Olympic Silver medalists.

The fact they lost to a few mens club crews didnt detract from the fact their event was one of the closest most exciting finishes at the Olympic regatta and was a better race than some of the ones we won.

BikingBernie

cougie wrote:

There are a lot of good women around, but the best women aren't as strong as the best men. Simple as that.

The best women aren't as strong as a decent second cat! I know this has already been covered, but the figures speak for themselves. For example, Emma Pooley, even if she is right at the theoretical top end, power to weight ratio wise, for female athletes, at 50kg she can't be putting out more than 280 Watts at threshold, a figure that ties in well with her performances in short time trials. A decent second cat should be putting out 320 watts plus at threshold, so whilst Pooley would have the advantage on a long climb, in a RR she would be seriously disadvantaged. When the elite women compete against the men they are restricted to 2/3rd category races and still can't win, as was shown when the British women's team rode the Ras, a 2/3rd cat RR, just before Nicole Cooke won the Olympics. The best female rider was Cooke in 5th place, behind three second cats and a third cat. When I was racing I was only a middling second cat and even I could do a '10' around a minute faster than the women’s competition record etc.

Of course there are some exceptions, such as Beryl Burton who could churn along in a ‘12’ with the best of them, but in most cycling disciplines, there seems to be a much bigger gap between the women and the men than in most sports. This is possibly due in part to the lack of depth and breadth in women's racing, with the top women being big fish in rather small ponds. The fact that road racing in particular is a unique blend of endurance and outright power is probably also important. Again, look at Burton who, despite her ability to time trial, was hardly ever able to get away on her own as she just couldn't develop enough short term power, and that was racing against other women.

BikingBernie

JonGinge wrote:

If you look at most athletics (incl. cycling, swimming) records the men are about 10% quicker than the women. That goes from 100m running sprints all the way up to Ironman triathlons, 24hrs etc.

In bike racing, where wind resistance is central and the power needed to overcome it rises with the square of the speed, the difference in threshold power outputs between the men and the women is certain to be more than a simple comparison of the times suggest. For example, compare the men’s competition record for 25 miles (45.57) with that for the women (51.50). That is a 13% difference but the power needed to ride at 32.6 Mph average, as opposed to 28.9 Mph, is a lot more than 13%. The men also tend to be bigger and so need to put out more power at the same speed than a smaller female rider.

KieranHardman wrote:

I think jsut before the 2008 olympics the Womens Quad raced an open mens event at a local regatta against good club standard rowers. They lost by a decent amount despite being Olympic Silver medalists.

And like road racing, isn't rowing predominantly a power-orientated sport?

jonginge

I said about
The 51:50 you quote is a bit out of date:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/u ... ord-22890/

cougie

aah Dammit. I forgot about Beryl Burton. Stuipid me.

But just look at the TT record times - 10, 25, 50, 100, 12hr 24hr. I cant be bothered to, but the mens times are better than the womens.

Oh and I've beaten a female GB rider in club events - so clearly they aren't as strong. I'd have bugger all chance against a bloke GB rider.

Rule74Please

Alter this quote to fit

"If you're good enough you're old enough"

james-m-h

maybe have a female domestique as all she needs to do is go back and forth but i doubt that in a bunch sprint or on a heavy mountain day even the BEST ladies in the world woul even get on the podium

phil s

james-m-h wrote:

maybe have a female domestique as all she needs to do is go back and forth but i doubt that in a bunch sprint or on a heavy mountain day even the BEST ladies in the world woul even get on the podium

Not trying to offend you but are you new to watching cycling? "all she needs to do is go back and forth" - have you any idea of the wattage required to do this?

cookiemonster

Andy Coogans power profiling chart below rates middle world class women between domestic pros for ftp (~5.5 w/kg) and 5 minute power, and cat 2's at 5s power (18.5 w/kg) out to 1 minute.

Kind of answers why Beryl Burton could do what she did, but also why a top pro women could get dropped at a E123 crit at Hog Hill!

jon

mouth

If they're good enough and competitive enough then why not? Can't see it though. Take the Worlds for example. Look at how the women's race dealt with the finish after a shorter ride. In the instance of a GT, they wouldn't stand a chance IMO.

Disclaimer: This is just my opinion and wouldn't like to be lambasted by any female forumites.

BikingBernie

JonGinge wrote:

I said about
The 51:50 you quote is a bit out of date:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/u ... ord-22890/

No, McGregor's 51.50 competition record still stands as that ride was disallowed.

andrew_s

JonGinge wrote:

If you look at most athletics (incl. cycling, swimming) records the men are about 10% quicker than the women. That goes from 100m running sprints all the way up to Ironman triathlons, 24hrs etc.

BikingBernie wrote:

in most cycling disciplines, there seems to be a much bigger gap between the women and the men than in most sports

In Ironman, the difference is currently about 7% (7h44 vs 8h18), with both records set in the same event so under the same conditions.
Looking at the 3 splits, in swimming the difference is about 3.5 min (7.5%) the cycling (180km ITT) difference is 29min (11%) and the marathon difference is 4min ( 1.3%).

So, if you are exceptional, the 10% ratio can be beaten, but not in cycling.

estampida

I have raced a couple of women

cum 1st time, every time - oh yeah :twisted:

BikingBernie

cookiemonster wrote:

Andy Coogans power profiling chart below rates middle world class women between domestic pros for ftp (~5.5 w/kg) and 5 minute power, and cat 2's at 5s power (18.5 w/kg) out to 1 minute. Kind of answers why Beryl Burton could do what she did, but also why a top pro women could get dropped at a E123 crit at Hog Hill!

Don't forget that the men also tend to be much bigger than the women, so the difference outright power is even greater, which is significant on the flat if not a long climb. Wasn't Backstead once recorded as averaging over 1000 watts over some of the cobbled sections in Paris-Roubaix?

andrew_s wrote:

In Ironman, the difference is currently about 7% (7h44 vs 8h18), with both records set in the same event so under the same conditions. Looking at the 3 splits, in swimming the difference is about 3.5 min (7.5%) the cycling (180km ITT) difference is 29min (11%) and the marathon difference is 4min ( 1.3%).

So, if you are exceptional, the 10% ratio can be beaten, but not in cycling.

This would seem to tie in with what I have said about cycling, and especially road racing, being a very power-orientated sport, like rowing, something that puts the women at a greater disadvantage than in some other sports.

james-m-h

phil s wrote:

james-m-h wrote:

maybe have a female domestique as all she needs to do is go back and forth but i doubt that in a bunch sprint or on a heavy mountain day even the BEST ladies in the world woul even get on the podium

Not trying to offend you but are you new to watching cycling? "all she needs to do is go back and forth" - have you any idea of the wattage required to do this?

Well im fairly new started this year, and no offense taken but surly if she only needed to do it over a short time and thered usually be someone to draft just a sujjestion and no i dont know the wattage what is it??

clanton

Cycling wise it seems womean can't beat (the top) men. They certainly can in other disciplines thoiugh such as extreme distance running and extreme distance swimming - in both of these the current record holders are i believe women.

jonginge

andrew_s wrote:

JonGinge wrote:

If you look at most athletics (incl. cycling, swimming) records the men are about 10% quicker than the women. That goes from 100m running sprints all the way up to Ironman triathlons, 24hrs etc.

BikingBernie wrote:

in most cycling disciplines, there seems to be a much bigger gap between the women and the men than in most sports

In Ironman, the difference is currently about 7% (7h44 vs 8h18), with both records set in the same event so under the same conditions.
Looking at the 3 splits, in swimming the difference is about 3.5 min (7.5%) the cycling (180km ITT) difference is 29min (11%) and the marathon difference is 4min ( 1.3%).

So, if you are exceptional, the 10% ratio can be beaten, but not in cycling.

Interesting stuff. Chrissie Wellington is phenomenal.

FWIW I wasn't really saying it's 10% bang on in every sport, I've just noticed that it's about that for some records. eg 100m running sprint: ~9.5s to 10.5; track cycling flying 200m: ~10s to 11; 800m run: ~1:41 to ~1:53; marathon: ~2:03 to ~2:15* etc

@BikingBernie Fair enough on Shaw's ride. Out of interest (but a lack of desire to google) what was the reason for the ride being disallowed?

* world best time

hangeron

james-m-h wrote:

maybe have a female domestique as all she needs to do is go back and forth but i doubt that in a bunch sprint or on a heavy mountain day even the BEST ladies in the world woul even get on the podium

and run the hoover around the team bus whilst making up the sandwiches for tomorrows musettes

james-m-h

hangeron wrote:

james-m-h wrote:

maybe have a female domestique as all she needs to do is go back and forth but i doubt that in a bunch sprint or on a heavy mountain day even the BEST ladies in the world woul even get on the podium

and run the hoover around the team bus whilst making up the sandwiches for tomorrows musettes[/quote

well im glad you said it

Tusher

Fascinating figures, thanks.

My tuppence worth is that I would like to see a women's race on the same day, on the same (closed) roads as the men's race. They could start 30 minutes behind, and a super fast woman may even catch the grupetto, which would make it all the more interesting.

BikingBernie

Tusher wrote:

My tuppence worth is that I would like to see a women's race on the same day, on the same (closed) roads as the men's race. They could start 30 minutes behind, and a super fast woman may even catch the grupetto, which would make it all the more interesting.

But the only way that would happen was if she borrowed one of the marshal's motor bikes, so she would probably be disqualified.

Anyhow, it seems clear that the BCF feel that it is 'fair competition' to put up the elite women against second category, and even just third and fourth category males.

Regional A

Eligibility: open to Senior and Junior male 2nd, 3rd and 4th category and Senior and Junior female riders of all categories

Distance/Time:

- Single Day Event: minimum 80 km.

- Circuit Race: minimum time 50 minutes.

Regional B

Eligibility: open to Senior and Junior male 3rd and 4th category riders and Senior and Junior female riders of all categories

Distance/Time:

- Single Day Event: maximum 90 km.

- Circuit Race: minimum time 40 minutes.

Elite / 1st / 2nd cat women are also allowed to ride National cat B events. Anyone know if any have ever done so? No one seems to think that it would make any sense to allow even the elite women to start a national cat A event.

Keith1983

clanton wrote:

Cycling wise it seems womean can't beat (the top) men. They certainly can in other disciplines thoiugh such as extreme distance running and extreme distance swimming - in both of these the current record holders are i believe women.

Have you any evidence of this?


I have nothing against women competing with the mens field. There will clearly be some sports that suit men better than women and vice versa. It seems there are some "technical" sports where women would be on a level playing field so to speak, although a woman with a beer belly and beard throwing darts just doesn't seem right!