Zebra, Pelican, Toucan, Puffin.

ready2burn

Ok everyone, the question of the day… What do you do when you arrive on your trusty steed at a pedestrian crossing?

I only recently turned to the dark art of cycling, and previously have always been very annoyed when a cyclist has gone straight through a red light at a pedestrian crossing or failed to stop when someone is clearly ready to cross on a Zebra, (not literally!)

But, after just 3 weeks of road cycling I had my first dilemma. I was on a short, fast, 18 miler, absolutely flying and on for a new PB (admittedly I have only done the course once before). There is one section of the course that involves a short sharp down followed by a ½ mile steady uphill. It’s pretty essential to get up a good lick on the down so you can really fly on the up. However, reminiscent of a scene from Trigger Happy TV (in fact Dom Jolly himself could not have scripted the event that ensued any better) at the very trough of the hill an old lady with a zimmer frame pressed the pedestrian crossing button!

After a few moments of moral crisis that I can only imagine bore an incredible similarity to how Paul Gascoigne felt when he got ‘that yellow card’ I decided that I would have to stop, and so did my noble duty. To cut a long story short I ascended the following hill much more like a Cavendish than a Samuel Sanchez.

So what do people do at ped crossings. I’m very inclined to stop but am much more frustrated about it now that I’m a roadie. What do people do? And before I get 30 replies from people vehemently denying that they have even considered crossing this taboo and that the very mention of it is a betrayal to the cycling world akin to Cheryl Coles unceremonious ditching from US Xfactor by Mr. Cowell I would say that, at least where I live, that approximately 60% of the time cyclist go straight over ped crossings (and quite often they are of the lycra clad, carbon ilk.)

So what do people really do? And if you are to embarrassed to admit that you have BROKEN THE LAW ill get the ball rolling. Sometime I park my car on the grass verge outside my house, despite it contradicting a local bye law!

pauldavid

Just whizz through for 10 points, 5 bonus points if your close enough to touch the old dear as you pass.

inkyfingers

If a light is red I stop. If there is somebody waiting to cross at a pelican crossing then I stop.

Not only is it the law, but it's also just plain sensible - imagine if you had jumped the red light and the old lady with a zimmer frame had crossed without looking, you'd have hit her and been responsible for her getting seriously injured, is it worth the risk just to knock a few seconds off your local loop time? I get really annoyed with how few people bother to stop at the pelican crossing in our village (both cars and cyclists), even more so since I became a father and think about my daughter using that crossing in a few years.

Phil_D

I don't really think you need any help working out what you ought to do at a zebra crossing that is being used by a pedestrian do you?

verylonglegs

So you are just asking for permission from the forum to break the law or am I reading that wrong? I obey the rules and stop personally just as I'd expect other road users to. What about car drivers, do you think they should be flexible too? You know, ignore those give way signs at junctions when a new PB for the drive home is on the cards...

Keith1983

I think the trick here is to apply a bit of common sense. If someone is on the crossing as you describe then clearly the right thing to do is to stop to allow them to cross. It probably wouldn't be the ned of the world if you did start to cross the crossing on your bike a few seconds before they reached the other side though. I think your decisions should be based on three things;

1. Affording the others the courtesy you expect to be treated with.
2. Obeying the laws of the road.
3. Leaving a good impression of cyclists in general.

If you can make your manouevres with these 3 in mind you'll not go far wrong.

EKE_38BPM

Keith1983 wrote:

...I think your decisions should be based on three things;

1. Affording the others the courtesy you expect to be treated with.
2. Obeying the laws of the road.
3. Leaving a good impression of cyclists in general.

If you can make your manouevres with these 3 in mind you'll not go far wrong.

Wot he said.

deptfordmarmoset

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Keith1983 wrote:

...I think your decisions should be based on three things;

1. Affording the others the courtesy you expect to be treated with.
2. Obeying the laws of the road.
3. Leaving a good impression of cyclists in general.

If you can make your manouevres with these 3 in mind you'll not go far wrong.

Wot he said.

Yes, that sounds right for the UK. It's worth remembering though that it's culture-specific. I bumped into this Amsterdam webcam the other day. http://www.terena.org/webcam/ - it's a bit like looking out of the window and watching the traffic go by in a different city. Loads of bikes but they simply don't stop when someone's on the pedestrian crossing, they go round them and nobody gets hurt or upset. In fact nobody seems to have to stop or brake because it's far closer to a shared space approach. The speed differentials between modes of transport are smaller than you'd expect to see in London.

The UK has a much more hierarchical system of priorities - an ''it's my turn so now I have right of way'' rather than 'Don't stop, there's room for all of us'' approach. And I think our cyclists would have to slow down closer to walking speeds for it to work. If you cycle over a pedestrian crossing while someone is crossing in the UK, it's looked upon as tantamount to queue-jumping, that great British no-no. In a shared space, however, it causes no problems at all.

Rouge Penguin

More and more posters are shocked they're not supported when their pb is ruined by a red light. It's common sense, if no one is there and clearly no danger to yourself and others its fine. Otherwise stop, its not like its a race.

Plus, surely its better to work up the hill and not cheat your way up it with speed?

Redhog14

Rouge Penguin wrote:

More and more posters are shocked they're not supported when their on is ruined by a red light. It's common sense, if no one is there and clearly no danger to yoursef and others its fine. Otherwise stop, its not like its a race.

Plus, surely its better to work up the hill and not cheat your way up it with speed?

+1

heavymental

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Keith1983 wrote:

...I think your decisions should be based on three things;

1. Affording the others the courtesy you expect to be treated with.
2. Obeying the laws of the road.
3. Leaving a good impression of cyclists in general.

If you can make your manouevres with these 3 in mind you'll not go far wrong.

Wot he said.

Yes, that sounds right for the UK. It's worth remembering though that it's culture-specific. I bumped into this Amsterdam webcam the other day. http://www.terena.org/webcam/ - it's a bit like looking out of the window and watching the traffic go by in a different city. Loads of bikes but they simply don't stop when someone's on the pedestrian crossing, they go round them and nobody gets hurt or upset. In fact nobody seems to have to stop or brake because it's far closer to a shared space approach. The speed differentials between modes of transport are smaller than you'd expect to see in London.

The UK has a much more hierarchical system of priorities - an ''it's my turn so now I have right of way'' rather than 'Don't stop, there's room for all of us'' approach. And I think our cyclists would have to slow down closer to walking speeds for it to work. If you cycle over a pedestrian crossing while someone is crossing in the UK, it's looked upon as tantamount to queue-jumping, that great British no-no. In a shared space, however, it causes no problems at all.

Thats an interesting webcam (not being funny!) good model for town centre planners.

CambsNewbie

I can't believe you 'had a moral crisis' when 'absolutely flying' and saw a pensioner with a zimmer frame about to cross the road when the red light was against you..

The 'fact' that where you live 60% of people may go straight through a red light in no way makes it acceptable.

Is it not possible to find a route where you can measure your progress that doesn't involve these moral crisis? If you can't, then you need to just accept that somedays even though you are flying, you are going to get held up. And as a previous poster said, use it as a challenge to work harder up that hill and gain the time back.

neiltb

knock a minute off your time for doing the right thing, it's only fair.

Rouge Penguin

Or just pull a massive wheelie, tyre slap the doddering oldie with a deft flick of the bars and fishtale the falling gravedodger off the road into a hedge. Once clear of the corpse, head down and cavendish sprint the rest of the way homw knowing you're going to arrive before you left. Deathbike 2011

zippypablo

Considering driving an emergency vehicle under blue lights allows you to go through a red light but not a pedestrian crossing then maybe let that influence your decision.

Mark Bom

Keith1983 wrote:

I think the trick here is to apply a bit of common sense. If someone is on the crossing as you describe then clearly the right thing to do is to stop to allow them to cross. It probably wouldn't be the ned of the world if you did start to cross the crossing on your bike a few seconds before they reached the other side though. I think your decisions should be based on three things;

1. Affording the others the courtesy you expect to be treated with.
2. Obeying the laws of the road.
3. Leaving a good impression of cyclists in general.

If you can make your manouevres with these 3 in mind you'll not go far wrong.

The above is spot on, but point number 3 is something I always keep in mind when I'm riding. Most non-cyclists have a negative view towards cyclists and I personally won't give them the benefit of confirming their views by riding like a c***!

esspeebee

The only time I'll consider going through on red is if there's perfect visibility either side of the crossing, I can see that everyone who was waiting has already crossed, and there's no queue of traffic to negotiate on the way. That and the standard gamble on amber which I occasionally misjudge, but again only when there's no traffic to restrict visibility.

ready2burn

CambsNewbie wrote:

I can't believe you 'had a moral crisis' when 'absolutely flying' and saw a pensioner with a zimmer frame about to cross the road when the red light was against you..

The 'fact' that where you live 60% of people may go straight through a red light in no way makes it acceptable.

Is it not possible to find a route where you can measure your progress that doesn't involve these moral crisis? If you can't, then you need to just accept that somedays even though you are flying, you are going to get held up. And as a previous poster said, use it as a challenge to work harder up that hill and gain the time back.

I was trying to make a satirical point - I have stopped and always will stop at per lights, i was just noting that it becomes more frustrating when you are against the clock. My point was more that i so often see people not stopping and i was interested to see what peoples stances are against it. Its nice to see that the majority of people on here will stop.... but i also like Keith193's 3 point idea. However, i must admit that in my experiences the percentage of 'jumpers' is far greater on the road than responders on this forum! So where are they hiding!?!?

ready2burn

Phil_D wrote:

I don't really think you need any help working out what you ought to do at a zebra crossing that is being used by a pedestrian do you?

No... but many others do!

2Phat4Rapha

Anticipation!

Cycle (and drive) not for just what's immediately in front of you but also for what's as far in front of you as you can see.

If you can see peds at or approaching lights at green, expect to have to stop even if you have quads like Sir Chris Hoy's.

Modify the speed of your approach just enough so that you're still moving as the lights turn back to green from a red. And if you get it wrong, well, you've got an audience so you can display your track stand! :roll:

CambsNewbie

ready2burn wrote:

CambsNewbie wrote:

I can't believe you 'had a moral crisis' when 'absolutely flying' and saw a pensioner with a zimmer frame about to cross the road when the red light was against you..

The 'fact' that where you live 60% of people may go straight through a red light in no way makes it acceptable.

Is it not possible to find a route where you can measure your progress that doesn't involve these moral crisis? If you can't, then you need to just accept that somedays even though you are flying, you are going to get held up. And as a previous poster said, use it as a challenge to work harder up that hill and gain the time back.

I was trying to make a satirical point - I have stopped and always will stop at per lights, i was just noting that it becomes more frustrating when you are against the clock. My point was more that i so often see people not stopping and i was interested to see what peoples stances are against it. Its nice to see that the majority of people on here will stop.... but i also like Keith193's 3 point idea. However, i must admit that in my experiences the percentage of 'jumpers' is far greater on the road than responders on this forum! So where are they hiding!?!?

I did suspect your original post may have had an element of tongue in cheek..

And I admit I may have been a tad harsh in my reply.. Just the thought of bike plus rider hitting pensioner at speed doesn't bare thinking about..

Also makes me realise how lucky I am. I can leave my house, do a 40 mile loop without a single set of traffic lights!

mouth

ready2burn wrote:

Phil_D wrote:

I don't really think you need any help working out what you ought to do at a zebra crossing that is being used by a pedestrian do you?

No... but many others do!

Depends on the definition of 'using' the crossing. If a pedestrian is stood at the side, waiting to cross, it is essentially the road users (including you the cyclist, or a horse and rider) decision as to whether you allow them to cross. It is up to the road user to negotiate and command their intentions through body language, eye contact and signalling. If they're already on the stripes then you have to stop. The biggest problem is that pedestrians seem to think that they have the right of way and can command the situation. You'd be surprised how many people give you the 'bird' when you drive a bus straight through the crossing because they think the driver is in the wrong.

A pelican (pedestrian light controlled), toucan (two can cross - cyclists and pedestrians), puffin (where the light controlling the pedestrian are on the same side rather than across the road, may also make use of sensors to eliminate an unnecessary red light for the road user). or indeed a pegasus (horse crossing - yes really. I've never actually seen one) crossing are all self explanatory really. Light on red, you stop, amber you start your slowing down procedure and stop before the red comes. flashing amber, proceed with caution and only if safe to do so.

The best one I came across was when I apparently drove through an "un-marked" pedestrian crossing. Who ever heard of one of them? The guy caught up with me at the next bus stop to ask me to explain my actions.

ready2burn

CambsNewbie wrote:

Also makes me realise how lucky I am. I can leave my house, do a 40 mile loop without a single set of traffic lights!

I am extremely jealous of that! Really you are so lucky!!!!

Too old for this

Speaking as a qualified driving instructor which includes being an advanced driver, the pedestrian ALWAYS has priority, if you think i'm mistaken i suggest you blow the dust off the highway code and have a look.

shouldbeinbed

Mouth wrote:

Depends on the definition of 'using' the crossing. If a pedestrian is stood at the side, waiting to cross, it is essentially the road users (including you the cyclist, or a horse and rider) decision as to whether you allow them to cross.

really?????? I thought it was pedestrians right and you had an obligation to stop unless it was totally unsafe to do so (too close to stop safely without hitting them or being hit yourself)


here you go

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070339

and a bit of advice on passing your test

http://www.2pass.co.uk/crossing.htm

shouldbeinbed

Zebra, Pelican, Toucan, Puffin.


Whiskey, Tango, Walnut Whip.

mouth

shouldbeinbed wrote:

Mouth wrote:

Depends on the definition of 'using' the crossing. If a pedestrian is stood at the side, waiting to cross, it is essentially the road users (including you the cyclist, or a horse and rider) decision as to whether you allow them to cross.

really?????? I thought it was pedestrians right and you had an obligation to stop unless it was totally unsafe to do so (too close to stop safely without hitting them or being hit yourself)


here you go

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070339

and a bit of advice on passing your test

http://www.2pass.co.uk/crossing.htm

looked at both links and all it says is "you MUST give way when a pedestrian has moved onto the crossing". says nothing about when they're waiting to cross.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070108 - reference to rule 19.

Too Old - pedestrian in road means you must make an allowance for them which normally does mean giving way in all fairness. this rule applies to the most vulnerable road user which could be a cyclist.

shouldbeinbed

Mouth wrote:

shouldbeinbed wrote:

Mouth wrote:

Depends on the definition of 'using' the crossing. If a pedestrian is stood at the side, waiting to cross, it is essentially the road users (including you the cyclist, or a horse and rider) decision as to whether you allow them to cross.

really?????? I thought it was pedestrians right and you had an obligation to stop unless it was totally unsafe to do so (too close to stop safely without hitting them or being hit yourself)


here you go

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070339

and a bit of advice on passing your test

http://www.2pass.co.uk/crossing.htm

looked at both links and all it says is "you?MUST give way when a pedestrian has moved onto the crossing". says nothing about when they're waiting to cross.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070108 - reference to rule 19.

Too Old - pedestrian in road means you must make an allowance for them which normally does mean giving way in all fairness. this rule applies to the most vulnerable road user which could be a cyclist.

You missed the bit. "you must slow down and stop at a zebra crossing if anyone is crossing or waiting to cross" then?

And "look out for pedestrians waiting to cross and be ready to slow down or stop to let them cross"

mouth

shouldbeinbed wrote:

Mouth wrote:

shouldbeinbed wrote:

Mouth wrote:

Depends on the definition of 'using' the crossing. If a pedestrian is stood at the side, waiting to cross, it is essentially the road users (including you the cyclist, or a horse and rider) decision as to whether you allow them to cross.

really?????? I thought it was pedestrians right and you had an obligation to stop unless it was totally unsafe to do so (too close to stop safely without hitting them or being hit yourself)


here you go

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070339

and a bit of advice on passing your test

http://www.2pass.co.uk/crossing.htm

looked at both links and all it says is "you?MUST give way when a pedestrian has moved onto the crossing". says nothing about when they're waiting to cross.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070108 - reference to rule 19.

Too Old - pedestrian in road means you must make an allowance for them which normally does mean giving way in all fairness. this rule applies to the most vulnerable road user which could be a cyclist.

You missed the bit. "you must slow down and stop at a zebra crossing if anyone is crossing or waiting to cross" then?

And "look out for pedestrians waiting to cross and be ready to slow down or stop to let them cross"

Look at the wording. I don't claim to be any kind of English teacher but even I can read between the lines:

This paragraph is lifted directly from the direct.gov link:

"Zebra crossings. As you approach a zebra crossing
look out for pedestrians waiting to cross and be ready to slow down or stop to let them cross
you MUST give way when a pedestrian has moved onto a crossing
allow more time for stopping on wet or icy roads
do not wave or use your horn to invite pedestrians across; this could be dangerous if another vehicle is approaching
be aware of pedestrians approaching from the side of the crossing"

The key phrase here is "be ready to slow down OR stop". The chosen wording is quite clear since in the next line it particularly high lights the word MUST

In this link: http://www.2pass.co.uk/crossing.htm reading the pedestrian section it seems to say " Remember that traffic does not have to stop until someone has moved onto the crossing". What's your opinion of this particular phrase? Looks quite clear to me.

The only problem with zebra crossings is that the pedestrian needs to be educated properly to make them safe for the road user.

shouldbeinbed

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on our respective interpretation of the words.

The pedestrian bit is totally contradictory to the road user bit. You also get the road user prohibited from overtaking stopped vehicles vs the pedestrian instructed to be wary for vehicles doing just that. Go figure?

I think you'd be more likely to fail a driving test or see flashy blue lights if you merrily sailed through a zebra crossing with people waiting than if you stopped.

The Ors

How do you measure your personal bests?

My bike computer stops timing when my rear wheel stops rotating. I like this way of timing because it removes all stops beyond my control, such as traffic lights, crossings, etc.

Essentially I am then only being timed against how fast I can cycle, so I can concentrate on pedalling harder & not worry about lights etc.

I get what you are saying about getting up a bit of speed ready for the hill though.