Standards of riding and fitness at trail centres

AMcK

+1 to cooldad above

I share the general annoyance of people stopping/blocking the trail, but find a kind word/pleasant chat, and a check they're okay does wonders.

Everyone was a noob once.

And back to the OP - who cares what people spend their own money on? They have their reasons, whether you agree with them or not.

stubs

If you have to be able to drive like Vettel and Hamilton etc before you can buy a nice flash car then Ferrari will be going out of business pretty quick.

Unfortunately I have 10 year old rusty Vauxhall Astra riding skills but fortunately I can afford to ride a very nice sporty german model.

So Bollocks to you, you snobby custards if I am on YOUR line or riding YOUR trail tough. You want somewhere to yourself build your own trail centre.

BlueAdvocate

This thread belongs on STW.

Holyzeus

BlueAdvocate wrote:

This thread belongs on STW.

Along with some of the posters

Northwind

BlueAdvocate wrote:

This thread belongs on STW.

Incidentally...

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/purist-mtber

I particularily like the tags.

HebdenBiker

There are so many straw man posts on here that I can't be bothered to respond to...well...any of them, but plenty of good points made too, by people responding to what I actually wrote, rather than what they imagine I wrote. Such as:

1. People may be on the trail for jumping/downhilling/skills practice, and not necessarily to set a new lap time. That's a fair point, that is.

2. (Some?) trail centres are over-hyped and the cycling press overstates the quality of bike required to ride them. So yes - you may not need a FS bike for the red route at Gisburn, but such a bike might make riding Grizedale or Dalby a lot more rewarding. I know from personal experience that this is true.

3. A couple of people have written "why do you have to "keep score" of the number of people you pass?" and that's a fair question. I don't keep score, but I am competitive and keen to improve, so I use my lap time, and my speed relative to others, as measures of my performance. I don't think there's anything wrong with this. Mountain biker in "wants to be faster" shocker.

4. Someone guessed that I come from a roadie background and that could account for my outlook on riding. That was quite perceptive. Actually I come from an XC racing background (I started MTB racing as a teensger in 1994), and later turned to triathlon. These days I'm a cycle commuter and a Sunday Roadie/Sunday MTBer, depending on which bike I feel like getting out on at the weekend.

So yes - competition and improvement has always been part of my reason to ride. Of course, it's not everybody's reason, however I have been surprised by how militantly anti-competitive some of the posts on this thread have been, as if being competitive in cycling is a sin that only "roadies" indulge in. Perhaps I'm out of touch and MTBing these days is a "leisure activity" rather than a "sport" to many, perhaps most.

I did say in my OP that in my view people can have any bike they like and ride it how they like, and I continue to think that. I was trying to invite a debate, I guess, about 1. whether, for some riders, the kit is more important than the riding, and if that's the case, why it would be so. 2. is going faster the aim of every cyclist? 3. does having an expensive bike make you go faster? 4. do cycling magazines overstate how much bike you need? etc etc etc I've enjoyed the debate and been given plenty of new perspectives to consider. That is, after all, the purpose of a forum, is it not?

Thanks all.

paul.skibum

1. Yes for some people the gear is more important than their own performance or ability - why because they believe it compensates for the skill shortcoming I guess? Some people like to have the best of whatever for whatever - best stereo, best computer etc whether or not they use it.
2. Faster is my aim, better = faster - every cyclist? Probably not from my experience.
3. Expensive bikes don't make you go faster but they might help!
4. Magazines promote products for manufacturers either intentionally favouring some through sponsorship or simply because its a good product - do you need the latest carbon 150mm FS for your local trail? Almost certainly not - you can ride pretty much anywhere on a 100mm HT if you are OK with it. I have ridden mine on black alpine trails, welsh trail centres, peak district loops and chiltern bridlepaths.

BlueAdvocate

Northwind wrote:

BlueAdvocate wrote:

This thread belongs on STW.

Incidentally...

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/purist-mtber

I particularily like the tags.

Those tags are great

stubs

BlueAdvocate wrote:

Those tags are great

Havent read that STW thread but yes the tags are funny why dont we have something like that. Though I think you might have to disable them on the crudcatcher or at least ban sheepsteeth from doing tags

mattyg2004

I hate it when people overtake you and make you feel like crap.

I mean I was pushing as hard as I could uphill last week and some jumped up little 12 yr old girl goes pumping past saying "hiya". I mean make a middle aged bloke with a beer belly on a scott spark 30 fell bad why don't ya.

Well thats me.

New into the game really I hate buying twice so thought I'd get a bike that would do me for what I want and thats to get fit. And should last me a fair few years.

What matters to me is everytime I go out I can get a little bit further before passing out.

To the OP were you born able to walk + Talk or did you you have to start off at the bottom.


Don't forget you were all beginners once


Anyhow first time at Gisburn today so If you see a fat man on a scott being pushed up a hill today by a mate say "hello"

stubs

mattyg2004 well said hope you have a good time Gisburn is a great ride

cloudynights

HebdenBiker wrote:

There are so many straw man posts on here that I can't be bothered to respond to...well...any of them, but plenty of good points made too, by people responding to what I actually wrote, rather than what they imagine I wrote. Such as:

1. People may be on the trail for jumping/downhilling/skills practice, and not necessarily to set a new lap time. That's a fair point, that is.

2. (Some?) trail centres are over-hyped and the cycling press overstates the quality of bike required to ride them. So yes - you may not need a FS bike for the red route at Gisburn, but such a bike might make riding Grizedale or Dalby a lot more rewarding. I know from personal experience that this is true.

3. A couple of people have written "why do you have to "keep score" of the number of people you pass?" and that's a fair question. I don't keep score, but I am competitive and keen to improve, so I use my lap time, and my speed relative to others, as measures of my performance. I don't think there's anything wrong with this. Mountain biker in "wants to be faster" shocker.

4. Someone guessed that I come from a roadie background and that could account for my outlook on riding. That was quite perceptive. Actually I come from an XC racing background (I started MTB racing as a teensger in 1994), and later turned to triathlon. These days I'm a cycle commuter and a Sunday Roadie/Sunday MTBer, depending on which bike I feel like getting out on at the weekend.

So yes - competition and improvement has always been part of my reason to ride. Of course, it's not everybody's reason, however I have been surprised by how militantly anti-competitive some of the posts on this thread have been, as if being competitive in cycling is a sin that only "roadies" indulge in. Perhaps I'm out of touch and MTBing these days is a "leisure activity" rather than a "sport" to many, perhaps most.

I did say in my OP that in my view people can have any bike they like and ride it how they like, and I continue to think that. I was trying to invite a debate, I guess, about 1. whether, for some riders, the kit is more important than the riding, and if that's the case, why it would be so. 2. is going faster the aim of every cyclist? 3. does having an expensive bike make you go faster? 4. do cycling magazines overstate how much bike you need? etc etc etc I've enjoyed the debate and been given plenty of new perspectives to consider. That is, after all, the purpose of a forum, is it not?

Thanks all.

many good points been made here, i do agree that mountain biking seems to be a lot about riding at trail centres and having big 5 and 6 inch bikes to ride them is best, riding to keep fit is put into the bracket that your a xc racer which is daft,not everyone wants to ride bmx tracks and jumps, ive been out with blokes on big bikes and tasty money the minute you take them up a techy rock garden there puffing and panting and putting feet down every second go to a trail centre and there off like whippets who's the better rider, you tell me?

mattyg2004

i'm thread Hijacking a bit. BUT

OMG.
We started on the Blue which very quickly turned into doing the red run. Wow some really stunning runs on the red. Got to the end of one run and my mates were almost on the floor laughing.

Apparently whilst at the top one of them was leaning on the post. The post with the black arrows.

Hully Gully wow amazing felt like sonic the hedgehog.

Anyhow top day knackered now.

ilovedirt

mattyg2004 wrote:

I hate it when people overtake you and make you feel like crap.

I mean I was pushing as hard as I could uphill last week and some jumped up little 12 yr old girl goes pumping past saying "hiya". I mean make a middle aged bloke with a beer belly on a scott spark 30 fell bad why don't ya.

Well thats me.

New into the game really I hate buying twice so thought I'd get a bike that would do me for what I want and thats to get fit. And should last me a fair few years.

What matters to me is everytime I go out I can get a little bit further before passing out.

To the OP were you born able to walk + Talk or did you you have to start off at the bottom.


Don't forget you were all beginners once


Anyhow first time at Gisburn today so If you see a fat man on a scott being pushed up a hill today by a mate say "hello"

True enough, but how else do you expect people to be able to pass you? I get a bit of a perverse pleasure from overtaking people, not in a malicious way, it's just nice to know I'm not totally unfit!

In response to the OP, most of the trail centres in north wales are relatively quiet as they're out of the way, and you'll mostly get experienced riders there (the marin, penmachno, coed y brenin), but I went to Llandegla for the first time a few weeks back. Jesus christ, I've never seen a trail centre so busy in my life! Lots of families and "all the gear, no idea" type riders. Fair play though, everyone starts somewhere, and it's good to see so many kids getting out on the trails! I think it was one of the nicer sundays for a while, so to be expected i suppose, given the proximity of llandegla to wrexham, chester, manchester, liverpool etc etc, it just took me by surprise how busy it was! I probably wouldn't go back in a hurry though partly because of the sheer number of people, and the fact that it's really not particularly challenging, again probably why so many beginners ride there. I guess mountain biking is just getting bigger, which doesn't have to be a bad thing. More riding spots for us!

geebee2

I bought my first mountain bike recently.

I'm not sure I bought wisely, I come from road biking, and for better or worse bought a fairly light (10.2kg) hardtail for £1099, quite a lot of money. But I was worried that by spending less, I might end up wanting to upgrade. Yes, I have WW tendencies.

I now think I could probably have cobbled together a bike for £200 or so, and probably made a bit of a mistake, but I'm happy with the bike I bought if not the amount I spent on it. I can well afford it, so not a catastrophe.

By contrast, my wife's bike only cost £60. Was a few years ago, built up by a friend, no suspension at all or disc brakes, but it works absolutely fine for her.

I suggest that everyone can ride what they want, regardless of ability. Provided they enjoy themselves, what's the problem?

GSP1984

I've been MTBing properly again for about 2 months. I used to ride loads when I was younger and lost touch with it.

In the first week of MTBing properlly again my girlfriend and I went to Llandelga for the weekend and we went round the red route... people were flying past us all over the place, such is life, they were probably thinking along the same lines as you.

After 2 months of riding 4 times a week which is roughly 70km offroad I have legs like Arnie and I very rarely get caught up bimbling around my local sherwood pines (crap sandy place by the way, but good for fitness training). Next year I even plan on finding out about competitions to challenge myself a little.

At the time I wanted to spend a reasonable amount of money to get something that wouldn't fall apart, so I bought riding 2011 Cube Acid... which subsequently fell apart.

I've just ordered an Orange Five Pro with a lot of upgrades and a frankly stupid RRP (which I didn't pay) to replace it.

The point is everybody has to start somewhere though, and some are more fortunate than other when they do start, again such is life. Noww everytime I go for a ride with my girlfriend I will have to slow right down from my normal pace, but I'll be on a £4k bike... with no doubt people like the OP thinking what an idiot.

Loose Loose

Markmjh

I'll be hitting gisburn this sunday. This will be my first decent ride off road since coming back to a mountain bike. So i will be the one that is riding nowhere near the ability of my Marin Attack Trail
But i will stop at the side of the trail when coughing a lung up and will try not to hold anyone up on the down bits!

Thewaylander

Markmjh wrote:

I'll be hitting gisburn this sunday. This will be my first decent ride off road since coming back to a mountain bike. So i will be the one that is riding nowhere near the ability of my Marin Attack Trail
But i will stop at the side of the trail when coughing a lung up and will try not to hold anyone up on the down bits!

See this is all i ask, stay out my way i stay out of yours, and if i'm feeling in a good mood i may say some random nice things as i pass or i'm over taken

Dobbs

I have been surprised by how militantly anti-competitive some of the posts on this thread have been, as if being competitive in cycling is a sin that only "roadies" indulge in. Perhaps I'm out of touch and MTBing these days is a "leisure activity" rather than a "sport" to many, perhaps most.

Quite the opposite. Many people think that MTBing should ONLY be a competitive sport. These people can be quite rabid, and would like to see more XC type races which consist of little more than riding around ploughed fields (and require fitness but very little skill).

I like to winch up the climbs and get my kick from cleaning tricky sections, not so much how fast I can go around a route. That may mean my riding is less fitness orientated but it does develop skill. You will not catch me throwing my bike on my shoulder just because it's quicker (I've seen this done at trail centres!). If that's "pure" MTBing then you can keep it.
I live for the descents, so whilst a whippet on a carbon HT may pass me on the ups, he won't on the downs.

Thewaylander

Dobbs wrote:

I have been surprised by how militantly anti-competitive some of the posts on this thread have been, as if being competitive in cycling is a sin that only "roadies" indulge in. Perhaps I'm out of touch and MTBing these days is a "leisure activity" rather than a "sport" to many, perhaps most.

Quite the opposite. Many people think that MTBing should ONLY be a competitive sport. These people can be quite rabid, and would like to see more XC type races which consist of little more than riding around ploughed fields (and require fitness but very little skill).

I like to winch up the climbs and get my kick from cleaning tricky sections, not so much how fast I can go around a route. That may mean my riding is less fitness orientated but it does develop skill. You will not catch me throwing my bike on my shoulder just because it's quicker (I've seen this done at trail centres!). If that's "pure" MTBing then you can keep it.
I live for the descents, so whilst a whippet on a carbon HT may pass me on the ups, he won't on the downs.

I haven't found almost anyone while i've been riding who thinks it shouuld ONLY be competetive, bar Njee(only kidding fella). most people i know saunter up save there energy, then ride as hard as they can down.

And in fact most people i know ahve 0 interest in the XC race circuit, some like the enduro and 12/24 event type things for the challenge, but find the whole XC race thing definately not for them.

Funny how people see completely different sides of the sports depending who they ride with regularly or where they ride

cee

Thewaylander wrote:

I haven't found almost anyone while i've been riding who thinks it shouuld ONLY be competetive, bar Njee(only kidding fella). most people i know saunter up save there energy, then ride as hard as they can down.

And in fact most people i know ahve 0 interest in the XC race circuit, some like the enduro and 12/24 event type things for the challenge, but find the whole XC race thing definitely not for them.

Funny how people see completely different sides of the sports depending who they ride with regularly or where they ride

Very much this....

we do the odd 'race', but its always either something like tour de ben nevis....10 under the ben, innerleithen enduro (looking forward to the light and dark enduro in november!), or endurance DH....

ITs for fun, to compete against our mates and generally see how much whisky we can drink the night before and still ride the next day!

bike-a-swan

Thewaylander wrote:

And in fact most people i know ahve 0 interest in the XC race circuit, some like the enduro and 12/24 event type things for the challenge, but find the whole XC race thing definitely not for them.

I wasn't really interested until I thought I might as well go and give one a try end of last winter. It helped that it was a good course, lots of swoopy down, up and along, and while an hour and a bit of trying not to cough your lungs up from going too fast doesn't sound like fun, it sure as hell encourages you to hit stuff faster than you might normally (even blind) knowing that if you don't there'll be someone breathing down your neck. It's amazing how quickly you get competitive once you pass someone/get passed! Sorely tempted by some more this winter.

That said, I wouldn't do it all the time.

Thewaylander

Have raced... i din't enjoy most XC courses are just not technical in my mind.

if i was really good enough i'd ahe a go at a DH race, but those race boys in DH are a league up, really fast over the big stuff

rhyko7

to the OP and everyone between

The whole point of trail centres is a place where everyone can ride and not much skill/fitness is required (Cwmcarn maybe an exception to that as the climb does require some basic fitness).

Don't get me started on dodgy bike set ups, why the hell would you want a stem longer than 80mm unless you are trying to set climbing or road records, then stacking spacers underneath to undo the damage done by the long stem, why why why

to the OP on fitness;
Most/not all the people that ride trail centres are fair weather athletes and weekend warriors, trail centres are designed not to be technical but still fun for all capabilities, dont be surprised that if you ride and exercise a lot that you are fitter than people who ride just on weekends.

Riding is about having fun, some people enjoy going hell for leather up/down, others enjoy a more leisurely ride, what ever floats your boat man. I ride with people who race around everything then others like to cruise up and then just race down. I really do not understand why some-one would not want to ride the descents fast, that is the fun part of riding i thought?

To me personally, trail centres are the last option i am lucky enough to live in S.Wales where the natural trails are amazing so tend not to bother with trail centres too often as i prefer more technical challenging / rewarding type of riding, but i do pop down the trail centre a couple times per month, and the beauty of trail centres is that they are all weather, best thing about cwmcarn is that you can do half the xc track then ride one of the many many DH tracks back to ground level and cruise back to the car park. im sure most trail centres are the same if you know the local area. there definately are lots of benefits of riding trail centres.

peace out go ride

geebee2

rhyko7 wrote:

Don't get me started on dodgy bike set ups, why the hell would you want a stem longer than 80mm unless you are trying to set climbing or road records, then stacking spacers underneath to undo the damage done by the long stem, why why why

Blimey, you have got me worried now. My bike was supplied with a 120mm stem, I reduced it to 100mm ( simply because I had a 100mm stem lying around ), as that seemed a better fit for me.

And yes, I have a couple of spacers in. I have tried the bike with and without, not much difference (I might yet take them out again), but on steep technical downhills, it feels a bit safer I think.

Am I completely crazy?

Holyzeus

rhyko7 wrote:

Don't get me started on dodgy bike set ups, why the hell would you want a stem longer than 80mm unless you are trying to set climbing or road records, then stacking spacers underneath to undo the damage done by the long stem, why why why

peace out go ride

I went from a 100mm stem to a 70mm one on the Cube, it transformed it on the singletrack.
Tried going from the standard 105mm on the Trance to a 90mm one, total disaster. I went back to the 105mm

Everyone's an expert...

Northwind

rhyko7 wrote:

Don't get me started on dodgy bike set ups, why the hell would you want a stem longer than 80mm unless you are trying to set climbing or road records, then stacking spacers underneath to undo the damage done by the long stem, why why why

Perhaps they like it? Perhaps they have a bike designed for it? Short stems are only mandatory if you're from the church of MBR. And stem spacers are nothing to do with stem length, nothing to do with "undoing the damage", and just for getting the bars to the position that the rider prefers.

GSP1984

Northwind wrote:

rhyko7 wrote:

Don't get me started on dodgy bike set ups, why the hell would you want a stem longer than 80mm unless you are trying to set climbing or road records, then stacking spacers underneath to undo the damage done by the long stem, why why why

Perhaps they like it? Perhaps they have a bike designed for it? Short stems are only mandatory if you're from the church of MBR. And stem spacers are nothing to do with stem length, nothing to do with "undoing the damage", and just for getting the bars to the position that the rider prefers.

Northwind of SV notoriety?

Small world!

Northwind

Guilty as charged You're an .Organist?

felix.london

rhyko7 wrote:

to the OP and everyone between

The whole point of trail centres is a place where everyone can ride and not much skill/fitness is required

+1 to this!

When I started snowboarding I would rely on the resorts in the Alps - lots of people of different ability with different kit all 'learning' together - as I improved and searched for new experiences I found myself riding off-piste/back-country most of the time.

I'm doing the same on the bike -pushing myself by exploring. If you're a park-monkey that loves hitting the really big stuff then the resorts/trail centres are where it's at.

My point is - I would/will never judge anyone by the kit they have or the place they ride. I've never been to a trail centre but ski resorts are full of people with more skill than me and/or better kit than me

They're where they're are - I am where I am. The trick is - Don't let it bother you

Now ride you monkeys!!