Hardest Climb In The World

ugo.santalucia

turkeytickler wrote:

What would be the hardest of all the roads frequented by the pros?

Monte Zoncolan is a good bet.

holiver

That looks brutal. I don't think I could do it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Zoncolan

ugo.santalucia

holiver wrote:

That looks brutal. I don't think I could do it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Zoncolan

Not without dedicated gearing... a 34 x 32 might be enough, just.

ForumNewbie

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

They are short and manageable whereas longer alpine climbs are different kettle of fish.

Yes, my point is that if you (or if I ) find Hardknott hard, it's not because it is, but because we don't have the correct gearset to climb the road that someone has decided to make unnecessarily steep... fit a triple and it's a doddle. While if you have to climb for 50 Km up to 3500 mt elevation, with or without the right gears, it's bloody hard, even if the average is only 5%!

They are called mountains for a reason and in the Uk there ain't any. The highest paved road in Britain is 840 mt and the highest pass 670 mt

I think a lot of people on this Forum (me included) would find the likes of Hardknott Pass or Rosedale Chimney, with sections at over 30%, very hard - even with a triple.

ugo.santalucia

ForumNewbie wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

They are short and manageable whereas longer alpine climbs are different kettle of fish.

Yes, my point is that if you (or if I ) find Hardknott hard, it's not because it is, but because we don't have the correct gearset to climb the road that someone has decided to make unnecessarily steep... fit a triple and it's a doddle. While if you have to climb for 50 Km up to 3500 mt elevation, with or without the right gears, it's bloody hard, even if the average is only 5%!

They are called mountains for a reason and in the Uk there ain't any. The highest paved road in Britain is 840 mt and the highest pass 670 mt

I think a lot of people on this Forum (me included) would find the likes of Hardknott Pass or Rosedale Chimney, with sections at over 30%, very hard - even with a triple.

OK, but the thread is about the hardest climbs in the world and Hardknott is not one of them. If they did a PRO Tour race in the area with Hardknott and Wrynose before the finish, the winner would not be a pure climber, which is enough said, really... my money would be on Gerrans, Valverde or Gilbert rather than Quintana and Contador

keef66

ForumNewbie wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

They are short and manageable whereas longer alpine climbs are different kettle of fish.

Yes, my point is that if you (or if I ) find Hardknott hard, it's not because it is, but because we don't have the correct gearset to climb the road that someone has decided to make unnecessarily steep... fit a triple and it's a doddle. While if you have to climb for 50 Km up to 3500 mt elevation, with or without the right gears, it's bloody hard, even if the average is only 5%!

They are called mountains for a reason and in the Uk there ain't any. The highest paved road in Britain is 840 mt and the highest pass 670 mt

I think a lot of people on this Forum (me included) would find the likes of Hardknott Pass or Rosedale Chimney, with sections at over 30%, very hard - even with a triple.

I don't mind admitting that I couldn't get up Rosedale Chimney with a triple (30 chainring 25t largest sprocket) I'm getting on a bit though.

ForumNewbie

ugo.santalucia wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

They are short and manageable whereas longer alpine climbs are different kettle of fish.

Yes, my point is that if you (or if I ) find Hardknott hard, it's not because it is, but because we don't have the correct gearset to climb the road that someone has decided to make unnecessarily steep... fit a triple and it's a doddle. While if you have to climb for 50 Km up to 3500 mt elevation, with or without the right gears, it's bloody hard, even if the average is only 5%!

They are called mountains for a reason and in the Uk there ain't any. The highest paved road in Britain is 840 mt and the highest pass 670 mt

I think a lot of people on this Forum (me included) would find the likes of Hardknott Pass or Rosedale Chimney, with sections at over 30%, very hard - even with a triple.

OK, but the thread is about the hardest climbs in the world and Hardknott is not one of them. If they did a PRO Tour race in the area with Hardknott and Wrynose before the finish, the winner would not be a pure climber, which is enough said, really... my money would be on Gerrans, Valverde or Gilbert rather than Quintana and Contador

Fair comment about the thread title, although the thread seems to have moved on to whether or Hardknott is hard. When I was thinking of hard, I was thinking that is where a cyclist would be struggling or putting in a massive effort to actually turn the pedals as I think most of us mere mortals would be on a 30% section - although I appreciate the climbs are not long compared to elsewhere in the world.

If the pros included these climbs my money might well be on someone like Contador, Quintana or Nibali, bearing in mind that Nibali won TdF hilly stage 2 in Sheffield last year.

mididoctors

ugo.santalucia wrote:

OK, but the thread is about the hardest climbs in the world and Hardknott is not one of them. If they did a PRO Tour race in the area with Hardknott and Wrynose before the finish, the winner would not be a pure climber, which is enough said, really... my money would be on Gerrans, Valverde or Gilbert rather than Quintana and Contador

I bet you thats not true if the finish was in coniston rather than kendal

I remember quintana and dan martin dropping everybody on honister

mididoctors

mididoctors wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

OK, but the thread is about the hardest climbs in the world and Hardknott is not one of them. If they did a PRO Tour race in the area with Hardknott and Wrynose before the finish, the winner would not be a pure climber, which is enough said, really... my money would be on Gerrans, Valverde or Gilbert rather than Quintana and Contador

I bet you thats not true if the finish was in coniston rather than kendal

I remember quintana and dan martin dropping everybody on honister

mende is a hardnott like climb (infact easier) and that selects the climbers in the tour

ugo.santalucia

Patriotic but delusional... no British climb will ever feature in the top 100 hardest climbs in the world

There is a new point system... Hardknott is 450 points, Monte Zoncolan 1660... about 4 times as many... Angliru is 1540.. .Stelvio 1400 etc.

This is just a list of European climbs, which are not the hardest in the world

http://www.zanibike.net/motore.aspx

Grifteruk

I started reading this with interest but got a bit worried when ugo started talking about very long climbs being bloody hard even at a shallow (ish) gradient. Im off to maui in 3 weeks to cycle the 36 mile 5.6% gradient climb from sea level to 3400m elevation mt haleakala and suspect that'll be the hardest climb I ever do. With the pro record of jonny vaughters being 2hrs 36mins I suspect my 3.5-4hr planned time of constant climbing is worthy of being up there for consideration as a major challenge, although if I find it easy then clearly im fitter than I think 

ugo.santalucia

Grifteruk wrote:

I started reading this with interest but got a bit worried when ugo started talking about very long climbs being bloody hard even at a shallow (ish) gradient. Im off to maui in 3 weeks to cycle the 36 mile 5.6% gradient climb from sea level to 3400m elevation mt haleakala and suspect that'll be the hardest climb I ever do. With the pro record of jonny vaughters being 2hrs 36mins I suspect my 3.5-4hr planned time of constant climbing is worthy of being up there for consideration as a major challenge, although if I find it easy then clearly im fitter than I think 

Altitude is the main issue there, I suspect under 4 hours is unrealistic. If you have a VAM of say 1000 mt/h, which is that of a pretty fit guy, you can expect it to drop to 750 mt/h when you get to 2000 mt elevation... by the time you reach 3000 mt you will probably start suffering headache and you will be short of breath and your VAM will be halved at best... 400-500 mt/h... you then still have to go 400 vertical metres up, which might well take an hour... it's going to be tough and it will put your local steep bumps in perspective

holiver

Have fun!

mididoctors

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Patriotic but delusional... no British climb will ever feature in the top 100 hardest climbs in the world

There is a new point system... Hardknott is 450 points, Monte Zoncolan 1660... about 4 times as many... Angliru is 1540.. .Stelvio 1400 etc.

This is just a list of European climbs, which are not the hardest in the world

http://www.zanibike.net/motore.aspx

not sure if thats directed at me but I dont disagree however saying that the likes of hardnott would not create a selection of light climbers is in error I think.

ugo.santalucia

mididoctors wrote:

not sure if thats directed at me but I dont disagree however saying that the likes of hardnott would not create a selection of light climbers is in error I think.

It won't... short sharp climbs are not climbers territory, but rather suit riders like Gilbert, Valverde or Kwiatkowski, who can put down a higher power than a pure climber over the 10 minutes or so it will take them to climb Hardknott...

Tjgoodhew

Grifteruk wrote:

I started reading this with interest but got a bit worried when ugo started talking about very long climbs being bloody hard even at a shallow (ish) gradient. Im off to maui in 3 weeks to cycle the 36 mile 5.6% gradient climb from sea level to 3400m elevation mt haleakala and suspect that'll be the hardest climb I ever do. With the pro record of jonny vaughters being 2hrs 36mins I suspect my 3.5-4hr planned time of constant climbing is worthy of being up there for consideration as a major challenge, although if I find it easy then clearly im fitter than I think 

Have you done Teide in Tenerife. Its 26 miles and up to 2500m.

I did at Xmas this year and altho never really steep it was a real slog climbing the last 500m as the air started to thin a bit. It never got above 10% but it was over 3 hours of climbing with zero let up and the mental challenge of that is as tough as the physical one. Id love to try the one in Maui and just getting to the top would be a serious achievement regardless of time !!

Im not yet the most travelled cyclist but i simply cant imagine anything in the UK coming close to it

keyser__soze

Surely it all comes down to how you define the words 'hard', and possibly also 'climb'? Is it perceived effort given you can get up it without walking/getting off? Is it simple ability to get up it without unmounting and walking? For most posting/reading here Hardknott is undoubtedly a 'hard' (ie difficult for most posters here to get up without having to unmount) 'climb' (as in the road goes up), but that's a different sense of 'hard' from the Stelvio, Teide or Maui. We're in Road Beginners here, not Pro Race, so really how relevant is what is selective in pro racing to how 'hard' posters here find a climb?

cc78

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Patriotic but delusional... no British climb will ever feature in the top 100 hardest climbs in the world

There is a new point system... Hardknott is 450 points, Monte Zoncolan 1660... about 4 times as many... Angliru is 1540.. .Stelvio 1400 etc.

This is just a list of European climbs, which are not the hardest in the world

http://www.zanibike.net/motore.aspx

According to that list the toughest climb in the UK is the Bealach Na Ba, with 731 points: on a par with many medium-difficulty Alpine climbs (ie Cat 1 or 2 in the Tour). But it's nowhere near the top 100 in the world, or Europe for that matter.

Pituophis

Hardest climb in the world is any that I'm only halfway up! :oops:

bflk

Keyser__Soze wrote:

Surely it all comes down to how you define the words 'hard', and possibly also 'climb'? Is it perceived effort given you can get up it without walking/getting off? Is it simple ability to get up it without unmounting and walking? For most posting/reading here Hardknott is undoubtedly a 'hard' (ie difficult for most posters here to get up without having to unmount) 'climb' (as in the road goes up), but that's a different sense of 'hard' from the Stelvio, Teide or Maui. We're in Road Beginners here, not Pro Race, so really how relevant is what is selective in pro racing to how 'hard' posters here find a climb?

I agree. I have yet to give up on a climb and define a hard climb as one where I seriously start to have doubts about keeping going. Probably 20%+ and I would struggle. Don't live anywhere near Hardknott and pretty confident I wouldn't make it.

Arguing that only long Alpine climbs are 'hard' to me is like arguing that the Olympic 10000m is 'harder' than the 800m. Having raced both distances in the past, the 800m is far more painful.

ugo.santalucia

Keyser__Soze wrote:

Surely it all comes down to how you define the words 'hard', and possibly also 'climb'? Is it perceived effort given you can get up it without walking/getting off? Is it simple ability to get up it without unmounting and walking? For most posting/reading here Hardknott is undoubtedly a 'hard' (ie difficult for most posters here to get up without having to unmount) 'climb' (as in the road goes up), but that's a different sense of 'hard' from the Stelvio, Teide or Maui. We're in Road Beginners here, not Pro Race, so really how relevant is what is selective in pro racing to how 'hard' posters here find a climb?

I did few of the 9/10 and 10/10 in Simon Warren's book and none of them gets even close to an average solid climb in the alps... steep yes, but with a compact + 30 T at the rear piss of cake... however, if you only have 39 x 25... then things get pretty hard even on this island!

roger_merriman

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Keyser__Soze wrote:

Surely it all comes down to how you define the words 'hard', and possibly also 'climb'? Is it perceived effort given you can get up it without walking/getting off? Is it simple ability to get up it without unmounting and walking? For most posting/reading here Hardknott is undoubtedly a 'hard' (ie difficult for most posters here to get up without having to unmount) 'climb' (as in the road goes up), but that's a different sense of 'hard' from the Stelvio, Teide or Maui. We're in Road Beginners here, not Pro Race, so really how relevant is what is selective in pro racing to how 'hard' posters here find a climb?

I did few of the 9/10 and 10/10 in Simon Warren's book and none of them gets even close to an average solid climb in the alps... steep yes, but with a compact + 30 T at the rear wee-wee of cake... however, if you only have 39 x 25... then things get pretty hard even on this island!

Certianly that tallies with my experance, last year and bit I've been pottering around on the old MTB with properly low gearing, heavy it may be, but it flattens any short steep road climb, to a non event. put some sensible gears and most steep hills are very doable.

t4tomo

roger merriman wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Keyser__Soze wrote:

Surely it all comes down to how you define the words 'hard', and possibly also 'climb'? Is it perceived effort given you can get up it without walking/getting off? Is it simple ability to get up it without unmounting and walking? For most posting/reading here Hardknott is undoubtedly a 'hard' (ie difficult for most posters here to get up without having to unmount) 'climb' (as in the road goes up), but that's a different sense of 'hard' from the Stelvio, Teide or Maui. We're in Road Beginners here, not Pro Race, so really how relevant is what is selective in pro racing to how 'hard' posters here find a climb?

I did few of the 9/10 and 10/10 in Simon Warren's book and none of them gets even close to an average solid climb in the alps... steep yes, but with a compact + 30 T at the rear wee-wee of cake... however, if you only have 39 x 25... then things get pretty hard even on this island!

Certianly that tallies with my experance, last year and bit I've been pottering around on the old MTB with properly low gearing, heavy it may be, but it flattens any short steep road climb, to a non event. put some sensible gears and most steep hills are very doable.

And mine. Steepness can be overcome with the correct gearing and with the UKs relatively short climbs, whilst they can hurt, they are soon over. Which is no comparison to 2 hours slogging up Ventoux even though it never gets that steep, it the unrelenting nature of the big alpine climbs that make them more difficult.

Either way though, both give you that great feeling when you get to the top.

CPEX

For me Doi Inthanon in Thailand. Not far from Chiang Mai. The heat and the way it goes on and on made it really tough...not to mention gradients of over 20% in places. Just thinking about it makes me feel tired. I'm told there are some even more monstrous climbs in Asia that make alpine climbs look fairly straight forward.

keyser__soze

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I did few of the 9/10 and 10/10 in Simon Warren's book and none of them gets even close to an average solid climb in the alps... steep yes, but with a compact + 30 T at the rear wee-wee of cake... however, if you only have 39 x 25... then things get pretty hard even on this island!

What speed do you think you have to maintain on a twisting hill with crappy road surface on road tyres to keep balance? Once you're below 4mph keeping the bike upright starts to play into the equation. To do 4mph on a 30% slope (as sections of Hardknott are) at 75kgs requires 400+ watts (http://www.wired.com/2013/03/whats-the- ... road-bike/). That's a non-trivial amount.

ugo.santalucia

Keyser__Soze wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I did few of the 9/10 and 10/10 in Simon Warren's book and none of them gets even close to an average solid climb in the alps... steep yes, but with a compact + 30 T at the rear wee-wee of cake... however, if you only have 39 x 25... then things get pretty hard even on this island!

What speed do you think you have to maintain on a twisting hill with crappy road surface on road tyres to keep balance? Once you're below 4mph keeping the bike upright starts to play into the equation. To do 4mph on a 30% slope (as sections of Hardknott are) at 75kgs requires 400+ watts (http://www.wired.com/2013/03/whats-the- ... road-bike/). That's a non-trivial amount.

As usual... like all these climbs, the actual 30% refers to a tiny stretch in the proximity of a bend, it's never more than 10-20 metres top. If you look at the average over 1 Km... you get 15-16%, which is still extreme, but it's not 30%. 30% over 1 km would be probably impassable by bicycle, regardless of the gears.
I'm never overly bothered aboout road signage saying 1:4 or stuff like that. A 5 Km section at 10% is way harder than 50 metres at 25-30%.

That said, you can cycle at 3 mph without tipping over, in the absence of gale force wind and in the presence of appropriate gears.

Anyway... if you think the UK climbs are among the hardest in the world, well then that is your experience, who am I to say they are not (for you)?

keyser__soze

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Anyway... if you think the UK climbs are among the hardest in the world, well then that is your experience, who am I to say they are not (for you)?

I don't think anyone here is saying UK climbs are the hardest in the world, merely that a small selection can be considered 'hard' and anyone claiming otherwise is being rather snobby. Having done numerous notable climbs in the Dolomites (GPM 1 in the Giro) and several in the Lake District, I found a couple of the latter 'harder' than most of the former, which for me meant I was closer to cracking and having to dismount. You may well not consider that a definition of hard, but hey, each to their own. I'm sure there're hundreds of road across other countries (including Italy and France) that would have similar profiles to something like Hardknott and I'd find equally hard, so it's not a misguided patriotic thing. Happy to "agree to disagree" on this one

marcusjb

I'll stand up for Ugo on this.

Whilst UK stuff like Hardknott and so on are ferociously steep, if your gearing is good enough and you've got some strength, you'll get over them - even a slow rider like me gets up Hardknott in 20 minutes, the quick riders 12 minutes? Not sure what the Strava KOM is.

20 minutes of big effort. Shouldn't kill you even doing a few hills like that a day.

Then you go to the big mountains, you ride your first hour plus ascent and you think "this isn't so bad", you descend for 20 mins, you then hit your second ascent - now it starts to dawn on you that it is quite hard to ride up big mountains all day. By the third col, well - things have got really tough now.

Riding the cols etc. is such a different thing to riding in the UK and is so much harder as the day goes on. It's having to put out reasonably high power for an hour or more multiple times that is so much harder than a typical ride in the UK where you might tackle half a dozen short sharp efforts.

ugo.santalucia

Keyser__Soze wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Anyway... if you think the UK climbs are among the hardest in the world, well then that is your experience, who am I to say they are not (for you)?

I don't think anyone here is saying UK climbs are the hardest in the world, merely that a small selection can be considered 'hard' and anyone claiming otherwise is being rather snobby. Having done numerous notable climbs in the Dolomites (GPM 1 in the Giro) and several in the Lake District, I found a couple of the latter 'harder' than most of the former, which for me meant I was closer to cracking and having to dismount. You may well not consider that a definition of hard, but hey, each to their own. I'm sure there're hundreds of road across other countries (including Italy and France) that would have similar profiles to something like Hardknott and I'd find equally hard, so it's not a misguided patriotic thing. Happy to "agree to disagree" on this one

You've got the wrong gears. Fit a compact + 32 at the back and you'll go up Hardknott no problem. It's only a 300 mt slope... it's no big deal on its own
Which climbs in the Dolomites you rate easier than Hardknott?

ForumNewbie

Two UK sportives features in this list of the 5 toughest sportives in the world:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/r ... world.html
Hardknott Pass features at No 9 in the world on this list of World's toughest climbs:
http://totalwomenscycling.com/lifestyle ... d-38772/10

I don't how people can say that there are no tough climbs here in the UK.