Recovery drinks and weight loss

JimboM

Hi all

I'm just starting cycling to help me lose a bit of weight and after doing a bit of reading it would appear that a recovery/protein drink directly after training can assist with this. (I'm not expecting miracles from the drink but I need all the help I can get)

However I suspect there is an exercise point below which the shake won't help and may even add to weight gain? Any ideas on how long you need to be exercising before a recovery drink becomes worthwhile ?

Also I'll probably go with a homemade powder as suggested on

http://jibbering.com/sports/recovery.html

Does it matter how dilute you make the drink ie with 50g of powder does it make a difference if I use 250ml or 1000ml of water etc

Thanks

Jim

BeaconRuth

JimboM wrote:

However I suspect there is an exercise point below which the shake won't help and may even add to weight gain?

Absolutely. If you're exercising for only a short time, not expending a huge amount of energy and continuing to eat your normal diet as well, then it's possible that you will be increasing the net balance of calories in/calories out - which won't help with the weight loss!

So the important question is, how hard/long are you training?

Any ideas on how long you need to be exercising before a recovery drink becomes worthwhile ?

Personally I never bother - you can get good-quality recovery nutrition from normal food. At times when I've done, say, 200 miles a week at an average of 18mph I've not bothered with specific recovery products - but that's not to say I don't take a lot of care to get the best post-ride nutrition.

Ruth

SBezza

As Ruth has said, if the training period is not long, or that intense a recovery drink can add extra calories not needed.

One of the ones I use is about 300 calories, so you need to think about how much you have actually done work wise. A 10 mile TT for me uses about this much in terms of energy used, so shows what sort of intensity and time is required to burn just 300 calories.

I use a recovery drink for the sheer convience, but as Ruth says you can get the same from a decent diet, just need to think about when you eat following training and how much you eat

If you are training/exercising just for weight loss, I would forgo the recovery drink, as it is unlikely it would be required, but only you know how hard you actually training. For weight loss you want to train regularly most importantly and ideally cut calories, trust me it is a long process and requires commitment.

ozzy1000

I don't know.... i'm not an expert... but.... recovery drinks replace calories and protiene so that you can recover quicker so that you can ride again the next day and limit fatigue...

if you want to loose weight you need to work with a calorie debt so that you ingest less than you burn. say you ride for an hour and burn 600-800 calories, getting home and downing 300 in a recovery drink is going to knock off some of the potential for wieght loss...

I guess it depends on how tired you feel after the rides as to whether you want to use a recovery drink or not... I've been trying to loose weight lately and I've ditched using recovery drinks unless I think i'm going to be really tired after a ride.

the best way to loose wieght is to be hungry all the time, count your calories and ride you bike loads. for the last two weeks I've been really hungry!! and lost 2.5kg! by calories restricting I was expecting to feel tired and unable to ride but if anything my riding has dramatically improved in the last week! I'm flying up hills now I eat about (in calories) 300 for breakfast, 400 for lunch, 700 for dinner. I've drunk zero alchohol and if i get desperately hungry I might have and extra apple .... thats my baseline food, i need a bit of extra blood sugar for rides so on top of this i eat a pre-ride snack and then the usual nibbling of bannannas when riding to keep me going.

all in all with riding and ride nutrition incorporated i'm in a big calories debt. i thought it would be hard buts its really not that bad, i just drink tonnes of water. I'm currently 12.5stone, i'm going to carry on doing this until i get just under 12 stone, then I'll back off a bit... I was 13.75 stone in april

SBezza

ozzy1000 wrote:

I don't know.... i'm not an expert... but.... recovery drinks replace calories and protiene so that you can recover quicker so that you can ride again the next day and limit fatigue...

You can do this with normal food though, that is what Ruth was saying. Unless you are training really hard a couple of times a day, they probably are not required in all honesty, as the damage done to the body is probably pretty limited for most riders, and unless you have done very long rides, you are unlikely to have used up much glycogen that needs replacing immediately.

Not too sure being hungry all the time is the best way to lose weight, eating less calories than you burn is probably the best and most sustainable way. I would suggest 500 per day is a sensible limit. If you get too hungry and are not disiplined enough, it is very easy to reach for the wrong foods and thus eat more calories in the end. There are various ways to skin a cat, but I did the above with loads of exercise and lost 40+kgs in around 18 months to 2 years.

AidanR

Unless you are training hard for something specific, and need every little performance boost you can get, my advice would be to stay away from "sports nutrition". Eat real food - plants and meat. If it comes in a pack and has more than about 3 ingredients, it's not food. If it is advertised as healthy, it's not food. Actual food doesn't need fancy packaging and advertising to tell you what it is.

Be prepared to lose weight slowly. You will be a bit hungrier than normal (don't use that as an excuse to snack, just acknowledge that it is normal to be hungry) but don't go into crazy calorie deficit. What you want is something sustainable - too many people think of diets as something they go on for a few weeks to lose some weight and then they can go back to eating like they did before. You should eat in a way you'd be happy to for the rest of your life.

This is quite a good article:

http://strengthrunning.com/2011/08/perf ... d-lessons/

ozzy1000

SBezza wrote:

ozzy1000 wrote:

I don't know.... i'm not an expert... but.... recovery drinks replace calories and protiene so that you can recover quicker so that you can ride again the next day and limit fatigue...

You can do this with normal food though, that is what Ruth was saying. Unless you are training really hard a couple of times a day, they probably are not required in all honesty, as the damage done to the body is probably pretty limited for most riders, and unless you have done very long rides, you are unlikely to have used up much glycogen that needs replacing immediately.

Not too sure being hungry all the time is the best way to lose weight, eating less calories than you burn is probably the best and most sustainable way. I would suggest 500 per day is a sensible limit. If you get too hungry and are not disiplined enough, it is very easy to reach for the wrong foods and thus eat more calories in the end. There are various ways to skin a cat, but I did the above with loads of exercise and lost 40+kgs in around 18 months to 2 years.

jeezzz!! 40kg+!!! thats incredible! well done! I was being slightly facetious when saying 'being hungry all the time', I just mean that calorie counting and restricting has left me bloody hungry!! i find nibbling my lunch over a couple of hours takes the peak out of midday hunger.. and then theres no harm in the odd emergency piece of fruit

SBezza

If you want to avoid hunger pangs, eat lean protein, it is alot more filling than an apple, and drink plenty of water, that will fill you up as well

amaferanga

Only time I ever bother with recovery drinks is after a race. For training I just make sure I have some proper food after a hard session so usually aim to have lunch or dinner fairly soon after a ride.

So I agree with others - if you're cycling for weight loss then ditch the recovery drink (things like Frijj have 500kCal or more which is about as much as some people will burn in an hour).

AidanR

SBezza wrote:

If you want to avoid hunger pangs, eat lean protein, it is alot more filling than an apple, and drink plenty of water, that will fill you up as well

If we're talking satiation of macronutrients, don't neglect fat. Protein may be king for satiety per calorie, but fat ain't far behind. Carbohydrate is a poor third, and that includes so-called healthy wholegrains, not just the obvious stuff like sugar. Trying to fill up on carbs is tempting, not least because they're cheap, but it isn't wise.

markwb79

I have found that using a protein drink is a good way to count/control the number of calories that I am consuming.

I use this after my commute each morning.

AidanR

Personally I would never drink my calories. All of the calories with very little of the bulk that aides that feeling of being full. And the calories are usually sugar.

SBezza

Protein drinks contain very little sugar if any, recovery drinks are different however, as they contain sugars as well as protein. Must admit they fill you up quite nicely for very few calories.

AidanR

Yeah, protein drinks are a bit different in that respect, but if their claims of being quickly digestible are true then they aren't going to be as filling as solid food. Plus they're really expensive!

As I said before, if you need every performance edge you can get then they have their place. But I don't think that's the case for most of us.

SBezza

AidanR wrote:

Yeah, protein drinks are a bit different in that respect, but if their claims of being quickly digestible are true then they aren't going to be as filling as solid food. Plus they're really expensive!

As I said before, if you need every performance edge you can get then they have their place. But I don't think that's the case for most of us.

Surprisingly they are very filling, and not that expensive to be honest, chicken/turkey and the like are not cheap at all, with protein powder 20grams of high quality protein is about 50p.

amaferanga

AidanR wrote:

Yeah, protein drinks are a bit different in that respect, but if their claims of being quickly digestible are true then they aren't going to be as filling as solid food. Plus they're really expensive!

As I said before, if you need every performance edge you can get then they have their place. But I don't think that's the case for most of us.

Not if you just buy protein powder from Myprotein and mix it with milk or water.

AidanR

That's true, Myprotein is pretty good for that kind of stuff. Some of it tastes properly foul though! I sometimes use EAA after weights for convenience, but generally I'd rather just eat an egg or preferably have a meal immediately afterwards.

mmacavity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

At about 1:01:10

Robert H. Lustig on High Fructose Corn Syrup

Cleat Eastwood

mmacavity wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

At about 1:01:10

Robert H. Lustig on High Fructose Corn Syrup

ooh, that was really interesting. nice post

mmacavity

http://nutritionwonderland.com/2009/05/ ... od-or-bad/

shockedsoshocked

AidanR wrote:

Yeah, protein drinks are a bit different in that respect, but if their claims of being quickly digestible are true then they aren't going to be as filling as solid food. Plus they're really expensive!

As I said before, if you need every performance edge you can get then they have their place. But I don't think that's the case for most of us.

Protein/Recovery shakes aren't intended to replace solid food, however you have a very limited window after exercise where you receive a greater benefit from anything you ingest if it is able to be digested quickly enough.

For weight loss though, if you're exercising everyday, and taking the calories from the shake into account, I see no issue with it. Plus, they may even stop the ravenous feeling I personally used to get when I first started exercising and ultimately raid the cupboards/fridge/other peoples cupboards and fridges and actuallly put something beneficial into your body.

jgsi

I wonder sometimes where we are all heading with the miracle recovery drinks et all.the mags are full of their adverts.. ok after a race or hard long ride...I will succomb and have a choco milk shake flavour recovery sports drink as a pickup and reward almost.. but whatever happened to a hard boiled egg and pint of milk .. I wonder?
I dont doubt for 1 second the efficacy of the recovery drinks which are dutifully force fed to eg track riders after each event to keep 'em topped up by their coaches...

AidanR

It's really not that limited a time window. Go for a ride, get back, quick shower and cook a simple dinner - no faffing and you'll be fine. I can't help but suspect we've been told we must eat instantly as a way of selling us more of these products.

shockedsoshocked

There's no global conspiracy to force people to buy recovery drinks. However, the literature is out there.

http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?sta ... as_sdt=0,5

fuzzynavel

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

mmacavity wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

At about 1:01:10

Robert H. Lustig on High Fructose Corn Syrup

ooh, that was really interesting. nice post

That was pretty good....I knew that HFC was bad but now I know the relative pathways and that it causes insulin resistance and inflammation..
thanks

AidanR

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

There's no global conspiracy to force people to buy recovery drinks. However, the literature is out there.

http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?sta ... as_sdt=0,5

No, there's not a global conspiracy to force people to buy recovery drinks. But there is a global conspiracy to encourage people to buy recovery drinks - it's called marketing.

Let's take a look at a couple of the studies you linked to, and some recovery drinks marketing chosen by order it occurred when I Googled it.

Timing of nutrient ingestion:

Chocolate Milk as a Post-Exercise Recovery Aid, Karp JR et al. wrote:

The resynthesis of glycogen between training sessions occurs most rapidly if carbohydrates (CHO) are consumed within 30 min to 1 h after exercise (9, 13, 17). Indeed, delaying carbohydrate ingestion for 2 h after a workout can reduce the rate of glycogen resynthesis by half.

Maximuscle blurb. wrote:

Drink within 20 minutes to optimise nutrient uptake, restore energy and repair faster, and boost your next performance.

Clearly if your window is half an hour to an hour, you can cool down, stretch, shower and cook a meal with no negative effect on your recovery. If it's 20 minutes, you'll need something quick and easy on hand - a recovery drink. Where'd they get 20 minutes from? No idea, because they don't quote a source.

Other notable things are:

Nutrition for post-exercise recovery, Burke LM. wrote:

Provided adequate carbohydrate is consumed it appears that the frequency of intake, the form (liquid versus solid) and the presence of other macronutrients does not affect the rate of glycogen storage.

So no, it doesn't have to be a recovery drink

And a gem from a ForGoodnessShakes study (which unsurprisingly showed that having one of their recovery drinks helped you recover better than having no food post-workout, just water):

We’ve been asked is 24 athletes a good sample size for a sports clinical trial? It is actually a fairly large sample size for a sports clinical trial. This is due to the nature of sports clinical trials. The athletes have to commit a lot of time, as well as undergo some very rigorous intense exercise, in this case muscle damaging exercise as well as invasive measurement including have blood taken, so 24 is a strong number of athletes. Other clinical trials that have been published have used significantly less athletes, Lucozade’s 33% claim used 9 recreational football players. Other published trials have used: 7, 11, 7, 10, 6, 9, 15; by comparison 24 is significantly more robust as a sample size.

(emphasis mine)

That's a pretty woeful standard of scientific investigation. You have to take these studies in their context. Some will have been paid for by the firms that use their claims - that is a clear conflict of interest. Others will be far more unbiased, but marketing departments will pick and choose studies that suit their needs, take results out of context and then exaggerate them, taking tentative conclusions and presenting them as undisputed fact.

This is not conspiratorial, it's just the way the world works.

shockedsoshocked

I undetstand marketing completely.

SBezza

For us that use these drinks after racing, I am sorry but you can't get home, washed, cook a meal, eat it and the body actually digest it within 1 hour. In fact I wouldn't still do this after a hard ride, it would still be over 1 hour between finishing the ride and actually eating, so a recovery drink kickstarts the process and a couple of hours later I will eat.

If people don't want to use recovery drinks, then fine, but to suggest eating normally does as good a job, well I will take advice from studies, as for me optinal recovery is the key aspect for me. Most people probably don't need then, but that is the same with energy drinks as well.

AidanR

By all means use them if you want to, and as somebody who races you're probably in the small minority who would actually benefit from them. But I would point out that food is also portable.

SBezza

You are correct food is very portable, but the last thing I want to do after a race is actually eat, and same after a hard training session, I always leave it a couple of hours between them as I can't really eat properly. Getting a drink down is very easy though.

AidanR

Fair enough. I've never had that problem personally.

I go by the general principle that the less that food is messed with, the better it is for you. So grass-fed beef is better than industrially-fed beef is better than hamburger meat is better than bargain-basement hamburger meat. So the idea that you can take foodstuffs, highly process them and put them into a drink, then market that drink as something better than the actual food is anathema to me.

I appreciate that it might act faster on your body (although the evidence appears mixed at best on this), and contain an "optimally designed" ratio of macro- and micro-nutrients. But if I may draw a slightly contentious analogy, I see it a bit like PEDs - they may give you a short term gain at your detriment in the long run. I'm not saying, of course, that recovery drinks are PEDs (though the line between sports nutrition and PEDs has been known to be fuzzy!).