Killing the Innocent?

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Comments

  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Sewinman wrote:
    The most important aspect of this case is that the man is now dead. If the system has failed in some way, as it would seem, he will still remain dead and the injustice can not be undone. One of many reasons why capital punishment is wrong.

    I disagree, as the man on LBC said, there are some circumstances (in his case he was looking at it through the eyes of a parent) where I would think it appropriate for a person to forfeit their right to life when they have deprived another person of theirs.

    For me the biggest issue is being absolutely sure that the accused is guilty of the crime. If there is doubt in the judgement then you cannot say it is just or fair. If there is doubt in the system then the death penalty is wrong - which is what we have with this case it seems.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    The most important aspect of this case is that the man is now dead. If the system has failed in some way, as it would seem, he will still remain dead and the injustice can not be undone. One of many reasons why capital punishment is wrong.

    I disagree, as the man on LBC said, there are some circumstances (in his case he was looking at it through the eyes of a parent) where I would think it appropriate for a person to forfeit their right to life when they have deprived another person of theirs.

    For me the biggest issue is being absolutely sure that the accused is guilty of the crime. If there is doubt in the judgement then you cannot say it is just or fair. If there is doubt in the system then the death penalty is wrong - which is what we have with this case it seems.

    It should not be the states job to satisfy a parent's need for revenge.

    How can you be 'absolutely sure' about anything? That is not the test that a jury is asked either - they are asked 'beyond reasonable doubt'. There is still doubt with every conviction. The fact is that if the state murders someone there is no come back, which is ridiculous in a system that is ripe for human error.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Sewinman wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    The most important aspect of this case is that the man is now dead. If the system has failed in some way, as it would seem, he will still remain dead and the injustice can not be undone. One of many reasons why capital punishment is wrong.

    I disagree, as the man on LBC said, there are some circumstances (in his case he was looking at it through the eyes of a parent) where I would think it appropriate for a person to forfeit their right to life when they have deprived another person of theirs.

    For me the biggest issue is being absolutely sure that the accused is guilty of the crime. If there is doubt in the judgement then you cannot say it is just or fair. If there is doubt in the system then the death penalty is wrong - which is what we have with this case it seems.

    It should not be the states job to satisfy a parent's need for revenge.

    How can you be 'absolutely sure' about anything? That is not the test that a jury is asked either - they are asked 'beyond reasonable doubt'. There is still doubt with every conviction. The fact is that if the state murders someone there is no come back, which is ridiculous in a system that is ripe for human error.

    I don't think you can so casually dismiss a persons view of justice as revenge until your placed in that situation or have experienced that societies/cultures interpretation of 'justice'.

    The states job, in part, is to maintain society. In some societies life is only repayable with life. I am not so lofty as to tell them that their views and values are wrong.

    There are cases where it is 100% certain that person A committed crime B.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    The most important aspect of this case is that the man is now dead. If the system has failed in some way, as it would seem, he will still remain dead and the injustice can not be undone. One of many reasons why capital punishment is wrong.

    I disagree, as the man on LBC said, there are some circumstances (in his case he was looking at it through the eyes of a parent) where I would think it appropriate for a person to forfeit their right to life when they have deprived another person of theirs.

    For me the biggest issue is being absolutely sure that the accused is guilty of the crime. If there is doubt in the judgement then you cannot say it is just or fair. If there is doubt in the system then the death penalty is wrong - which is what we have with this case it seems.

    It should not be the states job to satisfy a parent's need for revenge.

    How can you be 'absolutely sure' about anything? That is not the test that a jury is asked either - they are asked 'beyond reasonable doubt'. There is still doubt with every conviction. The fact is that if the state murders someone there is no come back, which is ridiculous in a system that is ripe for human error.

    I don't think you can so casually dismiss a persons view of justice as revenge until your placed in that situation or have experienced that societies/cultures interpretation of 'justice'.

    The states job, in part, is to maintain society. In some societies life is only repayable with life. I am not so lofty as to tell them that their views and values are wrong.

    There are cases where it is 100% certain that person A committed crime B.

    It is revenge though isn't it, we all know that.

    Go on then - give a 100% certain case. You can never discount corruption of the system, so even if it appears 100% certain, it may not be.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,377
    I don't think it's really Spen. Someone's hacked his account. The real Spen would never agree with DDD.

    BTW, I agree with your post too, re: the system seeming to be more interested in retribution than prevention or, dare I say it, rehabilitation.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • SimonAH
    SimonAH Posts: 3,730
    I have always been a massive Americaphile, grew up in Chicago as it happens. Right now I don't think I'd even take another holiday there - for about a hundred reasons.

    The habit that the country has of incarcerating it's unemployed and executing it's mentally ill is, whilst odious, lower down the list than most.
    FCN 5 belt driven fixie for city bits
    CAADX 105 beastie for bumpy bits
    Litespeed L3 for Strava bits

    Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Sewinman wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    The most important aspect of this case is that the man is now dead. If the system has failed in some way, as it would seem, he will still remain dead and the injustice can not be undone. One of many reasons why capital punishment is wrong.

    I disagree, as the man on LBC said, there are some circumstances (in his case he was looking at it through the eyes of a parent) where I would think it appropriate for a person to forfeit their right to life when they have deprived another person of theirs.

    For me the biggest issue is being absolutely sure that the accused is guilty of the crime. If there is doubt in the judgement then you cannot say it is just or fair. If there is doubt in the system then the death penalty is wrong - which is what we have with this case it seems.

    It should not be the states job to satisfy a parent's need for revenge.

    How can you be 'absolutely sure' about anything? That is not the test that a jury is asked either - they are asked 'beyond reasonable doubt'. There is still doubt with every conviction. The fact is that if the state murders someone there is no come back, which is ridiculous in a system that is ripe for human error.

    I don't think you can so casually dismiss a persons view of justice as revenge until your placed in that situation or have experienced that societies/cultures interpretation of 'justice'.

    The states job, in part, is to maintain society. In some societies life is only repayable with life. I am not so lofty as to tell them that their views and values are wrong.

    There are cases where it is 100% certain that person A committed crime B.

    It is revenge though isn't it, we all know that.

    Go on then - give a 100% certain case. You can never discount corruption of the system, so even if it appears 100% certain, it may not be.

    No. You're probably looking at Justice as seeking moral compensation for the family or victim/s of said crime. Unbound that leads to the American system which amounts to an eye for an eye.

    I think Justice is a servant of the law. In that we have laws that must be upheld, break them and you are personally punished in a Just and fair manner. Adhereing to that is what helps maintain society and that is a duty of the State.

    To use your logic, if we go down the road of "no death penalty because you cannot be 100% sure" then you could argue no sentancing because you can never be 100% sure.

    As I said the death penalty exists in America before this person was tried and executed, it will exist afterwards. It's their laws, who are we to judge? What is important is that the system is fair and just and if people are executed when there is a significant measure of reasonable doubt then you cast doubt of the whole system. - That for me is the significance.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • jds_1981
    jds_1981 Posts: 1,858
    Shouldn't society be aiming for rehabilitation, not punishment?
    FCN 9 || FCN 5
  • jimmypippa
    jimmypippa Posts: 1,712
    Shocking.

    The innocence project

    "Innocent until convicted, then guilty even if the conviction was shown to be unsafe"

    And no clemency because State Governors want to be seen to be tough.
    http://www.bikehike.co.uk/mapview.php?id=6404
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    jds_1981 wrote:
    Shouldn't society be aiming for rehabilitation, not punishment?

    No. Some people cannot be rehabilitated. If that were the case we wouldn't send people to prison. Besides which, American Society and Law accommodates for the fact that not everyone can be rehabilitated. Hence the death penalty.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game

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