Killing the Innocent?

spen666

Suprised to see no debate on here about the killing of Troy Davis in the USA earlier today.



A case that reveals a lot of worrying aspects about the US criminal System



I have expressed my views here - "USA Hang Your Head In Shame"



It is not so much a debate about the death penalty but the fact that the punishment is carried out when there is so much doubt about his guilt.
7/9 witnesses have recanted and 3 jurors say they would have reached a different verdict if they knew then what they know now about the case.

rick_chasey

Death penalty is rubbish shocker!

veronese68

I don't know a huge amount about the case, only the bits I heard on radio news. But it does sound terrifying. I would have hoped that with everything that seems to have come to light they would have reviewed the case. It's not as if they can review it now, I think killing the bloke is generally considered as final. I don't agree with the death penalty as can you ever be completely certain beyond any doubt at all as to what happened without actually having been there and seen what happened with your own eyes?

Keith1983

The problem is that 99% of people that will make bold sweeping statements on here about the subject will know little or nothing about it. It does seem strange that there is all this doubt and they went ahead, but then I have seen none of the "evidence", I wasn't at the trial and I didn't know the bloke so my opinion is entirely irrelevant, as will everyone on here's be. We'll end up with another thread where people end up taking cheap shots at each other over their opinions and people getting offended by others comments that were more than likely made in jest. Then someone will come out with something genuinely offensive and the thread ends up being about comments that should or shouldn't be made on the internet. Rant over.

spen666

@ Rick - forget it is a death penalty case - but look at the question of guilt only not the punishment.

The fact someons punished on suchunreliable evidence.

7 out of 9 witnesses have recanted and sworn affidavits to the fact. Of the remaining 2, one of these is the alternate suspect, so he is not going to recant.

Even 3 jurors openly say they would have reached different verdicts.

A shocking indictment of the criminal system in the land of the free

Monkeypump

Keith1983 wrote:

The problem is that 99% of people that will make bold sweeping statements on here about the subject will know little or nothing about it. It does seem strange that there is all this doubt and they went ahead, but then I have seen none of the "evidence", I wasn't at the trial and I didn't know the bloke so my opinion is entirely irrelevant, as will everyone on here's be. We'll end up with another thread where people end up taking cheap shots at each other over their opinions and people getting offended by others comments that were more than likely made in jest. Then someone will come out with something genuinely offensive and the thread ends up being about comments that should or shouldn't be made on the internet. Rant over.

Spoilsport! I bet you tell people film endings when they're half-way through watching too!

rick_chasey

spen666 wrote:

@ Rick - forget it is a death penalty case - but look at the question of guilt only not the punishment.

The fact someons punished on suchunreliable evidence.

7 out of 9 witnesses have recanted and sworn affidavits to the fact. Of the remaining 2, one of these is the alternate suspect, so he is not going to recant.

Even 3 jurors openly say they would have reached different verdicts.

A shocking indictment of the criminal system in the land of the free

OK, American justice system is rubbish shocker.

This stuff happens all the time over there.

Did anyone see that Louis Theroux programme on Mami jails?

it's a different continent, with different values and rules.

Next you'll be complaining women in Arabia get a bad deal, legally.

spen666

Keith1983 wrote:

The problem is that 99% of people that will make bold sweeping statements on here about the subject will know little or nothing about it. It does seem strange that there is all this doubt and they went ahead, but then I have seen none of the "evidence", I wasn't at the trial and I didn't know the bloke so my opinion is entirely irrelevant, as will everyone on here's be[/b]. We'll end up with another thread where people end up taking cheap shots at each other over their opinions and people getting offended by others comments that were more than likely made in jest. Then someone will come out with something genuinely offensive and the thread ends up being about comments that should or shouldn't be made on the internet. Rant over.

suppose the people in Egypt and Libya had taken your defeatist attitude- they would not have iverthrown the dictators in their countries.

In the UK we would still have slavery etc.

It is public opinion that forces things to change

Look at things like the poll tax, it was public opinion that forced the Tories to scrap it

Don't be a defeatist
Nonsense Keith -

rjsterry

I was just reading about this. The writer - Megan Carpentier in today's Guardian - suggested that the significant fact is that such things are decided at a state level rather than a federal level, so the fact that lots of people outside Georgia have expressed their disgust at this sentence being carried out is beside the point when the death penalty has public support in Georgia.

Combine this with the fact that in the US, once someone is convicted, the burden of proof transfers to the person convicted (rather than remaining with the prosecutor), and it's easier to see how this came about.

Still a moral stain on a country that claims to be civilised.

spen666

@ Rick, so you just sit there on your arse and let injustices happen? Bet you'd be taking a different stance if it was someone you knew.

SAdly there are all too many injustices in the world, but doing nothing about them is going to change nothing.

Change can be brought about if we all act rather than taking a smug "I'm all right jack" attitude

GrahamN

not as widely reported , but this chap got the good news also last night

personally I think this one certainly deserved it


http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/217923/ ... d-dead.htm

rick_chasey

spen666 wrote:

@ Rick, so you just sit there on your ars* and let injustices happen? Bet you'd be taking a different stance if it was someone you knew.

SAdly there are all too many injustices in the world, but doing nothing about them is going to change nothing.

Change can be brought about if we all act rather than taking a smug "I'm all right jack" attitude

No it's rubbish. It always has been rubbish.

Singling out this one incident has the tendency to focus just on one issue.

American police & justice = rubbish.

Great for films and TV, but rubbish if you actually live there are aren't minted.

It's reasons like this that there shouldn't a death penalty. These reasons have long been given. There are many more.

Presumably you feel a closer affiliation with America than I do.

I'm a Europhile, and probably always will be. Spent 6 weeks on the east and west coast and it did very little for me, beyond putting the US culture we do get over here in the UK into a bit of context. I don't rate it as particularly enlightened or exemplary nation. No way.

For that reason, I lump this case in with all the other hundreds of cases of poor justice and mis-treatment that occurs across the world.

If it was the UK, I'd care, since it affects me. Probably the same with Europe, albeit to a lesser degree.

rick_chasey

If you're so concerned about states killing innocents, go check out the stuff that's going on in Yemen and Syria.

Funny how there aren't any topics from you about those.

(You're not, which is fine, but don't make out to be some hero. It's fine you only care about the Yanks, but just admit that you do).

tailwindhome

Death penalty is rubbish shocker!

Spen starts thread to promote own blog shocker.

DonDaddyD

America is a Country/Culture that believes almost feverishly that justice (i.e. someone must be punished for some wrongdoing) must be upheld at all costs.

They believe this with such zeal that they can overlook or simply cannot see that often their actions of dealing justice can, at times, be an injustice in and of itself.

I would argue that this approach has nothing to do with 'justice' and more to do with retribution (revenge and at worse vengence).

Whether morally that is right or wrong solely depends on what side of the culture matrix you fall. While we can criticise the American justice system, lets not forget the short comings in our own. I'm still not convinced Mark Duggan should have been shot.

Keith1983

spen666 wrote:

Keith1983 wrote:

The problem is that 99% of people that will make bold sweeping statements on here about the subject will know little or nothing about it. It does seem strange that there is all this doubt and they went ahead, but then I have seen none of the "evidence", I wasn't at the trial and I didn't know the bloke so my opinion is entirely irrelevant, as will everyone on here's be[/b]. We'll end up with another thread where people end up taking cheap shots at each other over their opinions and people getting offended by others comments that were more than likely made in jest. Then someone will come out with something genuinely offensive and the thread ends up being about comments that should or shouldn't be made on the internet. Rant over.

suppose the people in Egypt and Libya had taken your defeatist attitude- they would not have iverthrown the dictators in their countries.

In the UK we would still have slavery etc.

It is public opinion that forces things to change

Look at things like the poll tax, it was public opinion that forced the Tories to scrap it

Don't be a defeatist
Nonsense Keith -

I'm in no way defeatist and will stand up passionately for something I believe in. I just decide to have knowledge not rumour and sensationalist reports to back me up. I'm not condemning people for standing up in what they believe in, just for not knowing exactly what they're standing up for and why.

walkingbootweather

I know nothing about this case over than that which I have heard on the radio. Most correspondents did seem to think that this was shocking, but one correspondent, who appeared to have studied the case in great detail and appeared cognitive of all the facts broadly supported the decision. He claimed that contrary to the reports of 7 of the 9 witnesses recanting on their statements, they simply admitted that they couldn't remember all of the details - since this was 15 years later, that isn't that suprising. Also he claimed that there was an additional new witness that had provided evidence, but that had not been reported. This chap said that he didn't agree with the death penalty full stop, but that on the weight of evidence guilt was beyond reasonable doubt.

There have been numerous appeals, and this case has been examined in detail several times. Despite what the media and celebrities suggest, I'm not sure that we can say that an innocent man has been killed.

TuckerUK

I'm still not convinced Mark Muggan should have been shot.

There's a huge difference between Police marksman making a split second decision in the heat of the moment and taking a life, and a legal system which condemns people to eventual death after having time to review the facts in the cold light of day.

notsoblue

TailWindHome wrote:

Death penalty is rubbish shocker!

Spen starts thread to promote own blog shocker.

What, you mean you don't want to know the real Spen666 behind the posts?

notsoblue

Btw, execution still happens in the US because its immensely popular it would seem.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... icans.html

spen666

Rick Chasey wrote:

If you're so concerned about states killing innocents, go check out the stuff that's going on in Yemen and Syria.

Funny how there aren't any topics from you about those.

(You're not, which is fine, but don't make out to be some hero. It's fine you only care about the Yanks, but just admit that you do).

Actually Rick, you are wrong

I have posted on here and elsewhere regarding stoning ofpeople in the middle east and barbaric practices elsewhere

I regularly take part in campaigns and actions regarding such behaviour

The Troy Davis story is topical at present hence why I post about it.

To post about a case no one has heard of that isn't topical is not going to raise the issues on here as people will not be interested.

Also, because one cannot campaign on every injustice does not mean one should not campaign on any injustice

spen666

DonDaddyD wrote:

America is a Country/Culture that believes almost feverishly that justice (i.e. someone must be punished for some wrongdoing) must be upheld at all costs.

They believe this with such zeal that they can overlook or simply cannot see that often their actions of dealing justice can, at times, be an injustice in and of itself.

I would argue that this approach has nothing to do with 'justice' and more to do with retribution (revenge and at worse vengence).

Whether morally that is right or wrong solely depends on what side of the culture matrix you fall. While we can criticise the American justice system, lets not forget the short comings in our own. I'm still not convinced Mark Muggan should have been shot.

+1

rick_chasey

It's a bit like the chat I used to have during the Iraq war.

Before the war: Shouldn't be going to war, since war is bad for everyone concerned, bad stuff happens etc.

During the war: "OMG, did you read the paper? Innocent civilians are killed by soldiers"

My friend: Duh, that's why you were against the war - why are you surprised?

Me: Err...Yes...

DonDaddyD

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's a bit like the chat I used to have during the Iraq war.

Before the war: Shouldn't be going to war, since war is bad for everyone concerned, bad stuff happens etc.

During the war: "OMG, did you read the paper? Innocent civilians are killed by soldiers"

My friend: Duh, that's why you were against the war - why are you surprised?

Me: Err...Yes...

Er no, IMO the thing about the Iraq war that caused so much protest was the manner in which the war was started and the reason behind going to war. It is accepted that in war people die, as horrible as that is.

It's similar to this, while others have been sentenced to death and executed we aren't really discussing the morality of the death penalty (much like may protestors weren't discussing the morality of war). What we (well Spen666) are trying to discuss and what is questionable is the validity behind the sentencing (much like the validity of the Iraq war) and it is that validity or lack of which is shocking.

clarkey cat

"The Innocent Man" by John Grisham is a true-life account of how this kind of thing happens in the US. Its really interesting and absolutely terrifying that through a mixture of mismanagement, lies and self-interest you can find yourself being legally murdered.

Worth a read if you like getting your blood to boil.

rjsterry

spen666 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

America is a Country/Culture that believes almost feverishly that justice (i.e. someone must be punished for some wrongdoing) must be upheld at all costs.

They believe this with such zeal that they can overlook or simply cannot see that often their actions of dealing justice can, at times, be an injustice in and of itself.

I would argue that this approach has nothing to do with 'justice' and more to do with retribution (revenge and at worse vengence).

Whether morally that is right or wrong solely depends on what side of the culture matrix you fall. While we can criticise the American justice system, lets not forget the short comings in our own. I'm still not convinced Mark Muggan should have been shot.

+1

What the...?!

<pinches self>

spen666

Here are 10 reasons why the board – which decided on Tuesday to allow the execution to go ahead – has failed to deliver on its promise and why a man who is very possibly innocent will be killed in the name of American justice.

1. Of the nine witnesses who appeared at Davis's 1991 trial who said they had seen Davis beating up a homeless man in a dispute over a bottle of beer and then shooting to death a police officer, Mark MacPhail, who was acting as a good samaritan, seven have since recanted their evidence.

2. One of those who recanted, Antoine Williams, subsequently revealed they had no idea who shot the officer and that they were illiterate – meaning they could not read the police statements that they had signed at the time of the murder in 1989. Others said they had falsely testified that they had overheard Davis confess to the murder.

3. Many of those who retracted their evidence said that they had been cajoled by police into testifying against Davis. Some said they had been threatened with being put on trial themselves if they did not co-operate.

4. Of the two of the nine key witnesses who have not changed their story publicly, one has kept silent for the past 20 years and refuses to talk, and the other is Sylvester Coles. Coles was the man who first came forward to police and implicated Davis as the killer. But over the past 20 years evidence has grown that Coles himself may be the gunman and that he was fingering Davis to save his own skin.

5. In total, nine people have come forward with evidence that implicates Coles. Most recently, on Monday the George Board of Pardons and Paroles heard from Quiana Glover who told the panel that in June 2009 she had heard Coles, who had been drinking heavily, confess to the murder of MacPhail.

6. Apart from the witness evidence, most of which has since been cast into doubt, there was no forensic evidence gathered that links Davis to the killing.

7. In particular, there is no DNA evidence of any sort. The human rights group the Constitution Project points out that three-quarters of those prisoners who have been exonerated and declared innocent in the US were convicted at least in part on the basis of faulty eyewitness testimony.

8. No gun was ever found connected to the murder. Coles later admitted that he owned the same type of .38-calibre gun that had delivered the fatal bullets, but that he had given it away to another man earlier on the night of the shooting.

9. Higher courts in the US have repeatedly refused to grant Davis a retrial on the grounds that he had failed to "prove his innocence". His supporters counter that where the ultimate penalty is at stake, it should be for the courts to be beyond any reasonable doubt of his guilt.

10. Even if you set aside the issue of Davis's innocence or guilt, the manner of his execution tonight is cruel and unnatural. If the execution goes ahead as expected, it would be the fourth scheduled execution date for this prisoner. In 2008 he was given a stay just 90 minutes before he was set to die. Experts in death row say such multiple experiences with imminent death is tantamount to torture.

The Guardian

rick_chasey

DonDaddyD wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's a bit like the chat I used to have during the Iraq war.

Before the war: Shouldn't be going to war, since war is bad for everyone concerned, bad stuff happens etc.

During the war: "OMG, did you read the paper? Innocent civilians are killed by soldiers"

My friend: Duh, that's why you were against the war - why are you surprised?

Me: Err...Yes...

Er no, IMO the thing about the Iraq war that caused so much protest was the manner in which the war was started and the reason behind going to war. It is accepted that in war people die as horrible as that is.

It's similar to this, while others have been sentenced to death and executed we aren't really discussing the morality of the death penalty. What we (well Spen666) is trying to discuss and what is questionable is the validity behind the sentencing (much like the validity of the Iraq war) and it is that validity or lack of which is shocking.

Pretty sure you're not familiar with my chat as a teenager. :!:

prawny

Didn't spen have a go at someone the other week for starting a thread about the Tour of britain because it had nothing to do with commuting?

DonDaddyD

rjsterry wrote:

spen666 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

America is a Country/Culture that believes almost feverishly that justice (i.e. someone must be punished for some wrongdoing) must be upheld at all costs.

They believe this with such zeal that they can overlook or simply cannot see that often their actions of dealing justice can, at times, be an injustice in and of itself.

I would argue that this approach has nothing to do with 'justice' and more to do with retribution (revenge and at worse vengence).

Whether morally that is right or wrong solely depends on what side of the culture matrix you fall. While we can criticise the American justice system, lets not forget the short comings in our own. I'm still not convinced Mark Duggan should have been shot.

+1

What the...?!

<pinches self>

Oi!

RC wrote:

Pretty sure you're not familiar with my chat as a teenager.

I have no idea what you mean.

Sewinman

The most important aspect of this case is that the man is now dead. If the system has failed in some way, as it would seem, he will still remain dead and the injustice can not be undone. One of many reasons why capital punishment is wrong.