Hill Training for Dummies

CakeLovinBeast

OK, so since getting my bike, I've not really taken on much in the way of hills, despite living in Devon. On my commute I tend to opt for the slightly longer commute (38 mile round trip, as opposed to 32) with less up-and-down and because I'm semi-reliant on my bike for transport, then I tend to wuss out of tackling anything too scary at weekends in case I damage myself (or put myself off).

With that in mind, a couple of weekends ago, just before a family holiday to Center Parcs, I set off to ride up Haytor to see what the pro's would be doing. I made it up without stopping, albeit as a panting sweaty mess, and also needing to use the granny on my triple. No excuses - I'm simply not hill fit, even with 50-39-27 up front, I still need absolutely all the gears to make it. Then last night I decided on the hilly way home (the road over Haldon from Clapham for anyone near Exeter) and that hill kicked my backside. It's only short (about 1.6 miles), but it kicks and then kicks again on the way up, to nearly 17% (according to BikeHike) at one point. Determined to not use the granny, I ended up having to stop at one point to recover.

So what I really want to know is, what's the best way to tackle some proper hill training. I realise that just by riding more of them that I can improve, but given that I live in such a hilly area, then I'd like to attempt something a little more targeted. Is it simply a question of finding a suitable hill and riding it until I want to cry, or is there some kind of method that I should be looking at?

Cheers for any help in advance...

ut_och_cykla

Personally I'd use the granny if you need to - and keep going as long as poss - no stopping. Eventually you will be able to change up or even do without the granny gear but just riding to failure every time is soul destroying and not very' real life ' related because even if you have to cycle at walking pace it will still be faster/easier than walking - trust me - I know - been there done that

Rule74Please

Find hill ride up
Ride down - ride up faster

repeat 20 times once a week and you'll get better

Perfect practice makes perfect

milese

38 mile commute? Every day? No matter how you cut that in Devon there must be some hills in there!

No idea if it relates to you, but losing body mass helps a lot!

Also agree that you should use whatever gears you need to to get up hills, trying to go in an easier gear at a more steady pace might help, mentally if nothing else. Once you are confident that you can get up, start worrying about getting up quickly!

simon_e

Rule74Please wrote:

Find hill ride up
Ride down - ride up faster

repeat 20 times once a week and you'll get better

Perfect practice makes perfect

20?!? You must be taking the p*ss. Four or five is plenty.

If you just want to get a bit better then have a day off the bike and on the following day do a hilly ride. Take an energy drink to top you up, if the hills are steep you may not want or be able to digest solid food adequately in between. Find a route with a series of climbs, take each one nice and easy. Next week try to do the same route quicker. As you improve then ride some harder routes.

If you're keen to really improve your climbing ability then do hill repeats. But not 20.

Find a road with a steady gradient that you can ride without stopping for at least 5 minutes. Doesn't matter what gear you need. You have a granny ring, so use it if you need to, it doesn't cost any extra. A longer, shallower gradient might be psychologically better than seeing a wall in front of you, and you can always practice on steeper or longer climbs as you improve - and you will.

Time yourself up it but don't go all-out, you should be working hard but not on the verge of dying / throwing up / the world goes black, that's too hard (since you want to be able to do it again).

Trundle back down, gather yourself, take some deep breaths and do it again. If your 4th or 5th time gets to 20% slower than your first then it's time to stop, the fatigue will mean you won't benefit from doing any more. If you reach the 20% point sooner then you're probably trying too hard in the first interval.

It's worth the effort - riding well on climbs is extremely rewarding :-)

Rule74Please

Nope 20

and each should be faster than than the last (or best effort)

How do you think the good climbers become good - Pain is your friend or

"You don't stop when you're tired you stop when the Gorilla is tired"

amaferanga

Rule74Please wrote:

Nope 20

and each should be faster than than the last (or best effort)

How do you think the good climbers become good - Pain is your friend or

"You don't stop when you're tired you stop when the Gorilla is tired"

B o l l o c k s

Really, really crap advice

celbianchi

Rule74Please wrote:

Nope 20

and each should be faster than than the last (or best effort)

How do you think the good climbers become good - Pain is your friend or

"You don't stop when you're tired you stop when the Gorilla is tired"

Pathetic advice.
I race the hill climb season as an add on to the road season. I race them right up to and including the nationals.
I do 2 specific hill sessions a week, (on top of other training). The first session see 5 or 6 reps of 3-4 mins at 360-400 watts with 5 mins recovery.
The second session sees 3 reps at around the same intensity with the same recovery.
both of these sessions are within rides of around 2 hrs of toherwise steady riding.

Doing 20 hill reps is not useful advice.

Eyorerox

If you are doing a set wattage does it matter if you climb or just ride on the flat?

celbianchi

Eyorerox wrote:

If you are doing a set wattage does it matter if you climb or just ride on the flat?

I guess probably not from a sheer training effect, but I think training on the 10% average gradient slopes that British HC's are run on helps you familiarise yourself with the different style of riding that riding intervals at around 120% FTP up hill demands than doing them on the flat e.g more out of the saddle stuff and the impact this has on the arms as well as legs.
Plus - I am one of those people who find it easier to maintain the target wattage on a hill than on the flat.
I also think it helps you from a mental persepctive if you know you are doing a 5 interval hill repeat session of 4 mins per interval then it is going to hurt and for me the hardest one of the set is starting number 3, knowing that you're not even half way through the buggers yet.
I do the intervals at a lower intensity than a one off all out race effort.

jgsi

No it doesnt really.. hill climbing just needs a bit of common sense technique thrown in, but pushing the pedals down hard to get watts up is the same whatever.
I reckon OP is perhaps not just hill unfit but 'unfit' in a more general sense and just needs to keep that 5 times a week commute going to build up a solid base.

Herbsman

You sit in a slightly different position when you climb a hill compared to when you ride on the flat. I'd bet that it does matter, even if only a slight amount.

And, well. I got beaten by seven guys in a road race recently, but only by a slight amount.

jgsi

Herbsman wrote:

You sit in a slightly different position when you climb a hill compared to when you ride on the flat. I'd bet that it does matter, even if only a slight amount.

And, well. I got beaten by seven guys in a road race recently, but only by a slight amount.

thats the common sense bit, I referred to ...
were you beat on a hil then?

Garz

Rule74Please wrote:

Nope 20

and each should be faster than than the last (or best effort)

How do you think the good climbers become good - Pain is your friend or

"You don't stop when you're tired you stop when the Gorilla is tired"

Isn't it:

You don't quit when you're tired you quit when the gorilla is tired

fastercyclist

There is something different between flats/hills even if you keep the watts the same. You use your cardio system much more on a hill, no don't ask me why. You just do, no psuedo-scientific "but it's just the same!" attempts to link watts on flat to up a hill can change that.

If you want to get good at hills then you have two options. Hill repeats, which are bad. Because they mean you don't get much time/distance done during your hill training. Or go for long hilly rides (easy in Devon) - that way you get your normal distance training plus the same amount of hills.

I wouldn't worry too much about being in the triple, one of the classic mistakes I see other people making is trying to cycle uphill in too high a gear.

petejuk

Talking about wattage on hills is only good if you have a means of measurement. If you haven't got that means then may I suggest using a heart rate monitor. What I've found helpful is using a longish (5 min plus) gradual hill and ride it as close to your standard comfortable pace where you can still hold a conversation. Concentrate in spinning a comfortable gear, get right back on the saddle and keep your head up, sucking in as much air as possible. Keep as comfortable as you can and include this hill in your regular rides as often as possible. Once you're confident with this one, find a more challenging one (either steeper or longer- not both initially) and apply the same theory to that. I find starting in the saddle and spinning helps but as the hill get longer, I vary between in and out of the saddle.
By doing this you are training your mind as much as your body that hills are not to be feared, nor are they something that must be got out the way with as soon as possible but something that you are in control over.

Slack

Forget specifiic hill training. All you need to do is work on your general aerobic conditioning to improve the efficiency and output of your heart and lungs. This takes time and patience.

fuzzynavel

celbianchi wrote:

Rule74Please wrote:

Nope 20

and each should be faster than than the last (or best effort)

How do you think the good climbers become good - Pain is your friend or

"You don't stop when you're tired you stop when the Gorilla is tired"

Pathetic advice.
I race the hill climb season as an add on to the road season. I race them right up to and including the nationals.
I do 2 specific hill sessions a week, (on top of other training). The first session see 5 or 6 reps of 3-4 mins at 360-400 watts with 5 mins recovery.
The second session sees 3 reps at around the same intensity with the same recovery.
both of these sessions are within rides of around 2 hrs of toherwise steady riding.

Doing 20 hill reps is not useful advice.

I would say there is a little bit of sense in Rule74 please's..."hit the hills and keep hitting them" approach....for the untrained cyclist it is all about practice to get the technique, general fitness and muscularity sorted. For a trained cyclist like CelBianchi a more structured approach is necessary to maintain development in the riding abilities....
Another reason for hitting hills over and over is that the UK doesn't have much comparable to long alpine climbs so we have to make do with what we've got.

CakeLovinBeast

Apologies for the hit n run thread posting, and thanks to everyone who's taken the time to answer. Based on the variety of the answers and the fact that I don't train with HR or power meter, then I think at this relatively early stage I'm probably best off just doing more hills!

mustol

WIth regards to using your granny ring - use it! I've got a triple and use whatever gear I need to to maintain a decent cadence - particularly on longer climbs. My smallest gear (30-26) is reserved for when it really gets tough e.g. climbing Haytor into the teeth of a gale, but I find that on long climbs of 5%ish gradient, I'll use someting like 30-21 and I can settle into a good rhythm. I'll use bigger gears on the shorter climbs or to do a bit of a surge if I'm feeling good. You're better off leaving a bit of gas in reserve than blowing up halfway up!

One of the reasons (other than his obvious hill climbing talent) that Cobo pulled away from the other contenders on the Angliru stage of the Vuelta was that he had the smallest gear (34-32 I believe).

oscarbudgie

in addition to all the other advice, lose as much weight as you can. And then a bit more!

Pigtail

oscarbudgie wrote:

in addition to all the other advice, lose as much weight as you can. And then a bit more!

I thought hills were ok, but have recently had two difficult experiences that has made me realise they need more work. I'm coming to the conclusion somewhat reluctantly that losing some weight has to be part of the solution.

boneyjoe

Its often helpful to have something to aim for - eg sign up for a hilly sportive or charity ride - and then you can focus your training towards that goal. The event itself will also give your strength and fitness a boost, and hopefully provide the motivation to keep working at it. Otherwise, popping your yes out and breathing out your ears isn't generally that much fun!

In the run-up to the summer race season, I include hill intervals every couple of weeks with about 5/6 efforts of 3-4 min duration, combined with a couple of very long and hilly rides to help build stamina in the legs. Might do more if I had the time...

And yes, do use the granny ring. Unless you're a TDF contender, its often best to start a climb in what might seem like a fairly easy gear, which you can then maintain or push up as it continues, rather than go hell for leather at the start only to blow out half way.

Muffintop

As a realitive newbie - about a year and a half cycling with 2 sportives under my belt - I've found hill training is more in the mind, than on the hill. I'm guessing you're a bit like me - looking more to be fit and healthy with a comfortable ride than kill yourself every day. It's better you get up the hill slowly in one than have to stop. There's no shame in using your granny gear, repeats are good though more little and often than killing yourself. You'll have a good base with your milage already, so you can do it, just need to take these first few times easy.

However if a hill is perticuarly tricky and you repeatedly have to stop before the top when you're just on your daily route, it might be worth driving out there, doing a warm up and going up with fresh legs (just getting to the top without stopping is enough). If you have to stop, go back down and start again, making sure you have reserves to push past the place you fell over at (or is that just me?)

Any I've had to stop on going up a hill (my chains come off, or it's been a 'sneak hill' and I've turned the corner in the wrong gear (and end up bloody because I've not been able to unclip to get my foot down)) I've gone back down then climbed my way back up passed the point I've stopped. Even if it's taken me several attepts to get up the hill, I've always gone back down then cycled past the point I last stopped. If you can do this a couple of times over an hour then fab. Keep time if you can, though don't try to set any records this first time. Psycologically it's better you get to the top of the hill without stopping than getting a third up in your biggest cog.

Also, don't get out the seat unless you have to - untill you can comfortably get up that hill in the seat - then think about pushing more. You're beating the hill first, then you can concentrate on the style it's done in. When you manage it with energy to spare (which will happen in no time) then start moving up the gears in spaced intervals (10 meters to go, 20 meters to go, after the last bend)

If you have the time, interval training will help if fatigue is a problem as you spin your way up (really easy low gear and then peddling as fast as you can spinning your legs away). Also some weight training for the legs will help (also do some core and arm work, it will surprise you how much better you feel when these are strong) - squats or dips for the thighs - this will help with your power when you move up your gears.

Sorry if this is telling you stuff you already know. But this is how I made hill work easier for me (indeed, I've gone a bit mental and now make a point of finding HORRIBLE HILLS and making my friends cycle up them, I think I'm loosing my popularity).

Also, on the whole 'loosing weight' thing, take it with a pinch of salt (and a slice of cake). In my circumstance, clinically I'm a stone over weight but for a female I have 20% body fat and I have yet to find a hill I can't climb. IMO (and I'm probably not going to win any friends) the weight issue is banded about alot in cycling (not neccessary in these forums - don't know enough about this place yet) to the point of mental illness. Cycling (to an extent) is supposed to be hard, otherwise anyone could do it.

simon_e

Great post by Muffintop.

I'd add that if you feel you want to lose weight then shedding pounds can be beneficial if you are overweight, but losing a few kilos won't make you fly up the hills - they are still just as steep and it is still hard work!

Finding a purpose to go out and do intervals so you stick to your plan is a big part of your success. It can be difficult to motivate yourself, so clear, attainable goals and a bit of structure are great.

aw1808

Hills have to be your best friend , the more you avoid them the harder they are . Im not a small bloke and find hills hard but find that you just have to get on with them and go up in any gear you can.

Im not the quickest at going up hill and my mates fly up hills past me but encourage me to keep it going which helps .

However i get a great sense of achievement when i have got to the top of the hill and i normaly pass all the people on the way down .... gravity !!

symo

I have gone from being not bothered about hills to finding a hill here in Fleet (after living in N'abbot) that I can do four or five trips up on an 8% gradient. The thing is the hills in Devon come in every flavour, short & sharp or long shallow drags. My advice is find a hill that pushes your HR, do it and repeat as often as you can in a session.

I wouldn't try Holnes Cross or Haytor for it though!

bobtbuilder

oscarbudgie wrote:

in addition to all the other advice, lose as much weight as you can. And then a bit more!

WHS^^^

I've been cycling for more years than I care to remember (25+) and have always enjoyed hills despite not being very good at them. Over the years I have tried a variety of hill repeats, intervals, etc but the single biggest improvement has come by losing 3 stone in weight since March. It's remarkable how much quicker I can get up hills or how I can get up them in a harder gear than before.