Indicators

shouldbeinbed

I'm of the indicate when theres something to indicate to school of thought but that requires people to look properly before making the decision, not often done by the amount of SMIDSY comments when it goes wrong. or the d**khead postie that ran me off the road the other morning.

but those that don't indicate when there is soemthing to indicate to, should have body parts cut off and fed to them. it really winds me up.

rick_chasey

But why is always indicating somehow mutually exclusive to not paying attention?

Surely you can, and should, do both?

Too old for this

Indicators are fitted to a vehicle for a reason, in my opinion it is just lazy and shows a lack of attention to detail. but what do i know.
Bill
DSA ADI

Mr Plum

Some interesting opinions on this. As an example, what's the opinion on this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCQB7guYgPE

No indication so I assumed she was going straight over given the position of the car and lack of any indication. As I'm about to shoot up the inside to turn left she starts turning left as well so I brake fairly hard and follow her around the corner.

It's pretty difficult to miss me in my DayGlo yellow commuting/raving jersey 8)

ride_whenever

Need more of this (NSFW language)


:twisted:

jonny_trousers

That advanced motorist theory sounds absolute bobbins to me. By that same token disobeying traffic lights should be acceptable, providing you have made a full and thorough assessment of who or what is around you first. It shows a lack of concentration to allow the traffic light to decide when you can and cannot go, right?

Non of us are infallible. We all suffer momentary lapses of concentration. If we can get into the habit of indicating as a matter of course then we are at least giving our fellow road users an idea of what we have planned.

In my experience, the lack of indicating at junctions down my way comes down to lazy, stupid, inconsiderate driving only.

DonDaddyD

I drive.

I indicate when driving and when cycling. I find it a matter of increasing my personal safety.

Indicating usually results (whether in reality or psychologically it gives reassurance) in the vehicle behind backing off and giving room, time and space to perform my maneuver.

I understand the logic that you should be first aware of what is around you in order to know who you are indicating to. Should still indicate though.

But that's just me.

rick_chasey

It's simple.

Always pay attention.

Always indicate.

daniel_b

I think the damage is already done, around here, so many people do not indicate at all, and although I see it more in motorists, I also see an annoying amount of cyclists not bothering either.

To me it is basic courtesy for your fellow road users, and people just don't seem to care anymore, "as long as I'm ok making my way to work/home, other people can take a hike" seems to be the attitude.

It's a change that I have noticed more and more in the last 10 years I would estimate - when I started driving in 1996, the vast majority of people indicated at every turn, and at roundabouts, nowadays i would say the non indicating fraternity amount for 50% of the people around here, and MrChuck's GF's approach to indicating seems to be the one in favour for the masses.

I followed a guy the other day, two right hand turns at two consecutive roundabouts (Both with two alternative exits), followed by a left and he did not feel the need to indicate where he was going to go at all at any point.

Smacks of complete lack of care/awareness of others to me, drives me :twisted:

The other reason, for me anyway, to indicate when you might not think it is necessary, is the rule that says you only need to indicate when it is of benefit to others, ie if someone else is around.
We're all human, what happens if we miss that someone else (In our blindspot, dark clothes or we simply make a mistake), and just swerve into them as a result - indicating at least gives that person we might not have seen, a fighting chance to take measures and potentially avoid an accident.

walkingbootweather

Guys, I passed my driving test many years ago and have done lots of driving in all sorts of environments in the UK and abroad. I spent 3 years at Uni in London, driving most days (before I got back into bikes), have driven in Rome, Paris, Budapest, around US, across chunks of Central America and right across the Rub' al Khali in all manner of vehicles. Like most people (well men at least) I considered myself to be a pretty decent driver.

Seven or eight years ago I signed up for an Advanced Driving Course and discovered that I wasn't quite as good as I thought I was. The techniques taught for advanced driving can be quite different from what you learn to pass a regular driving test, and it took me a while to adapt, but I'm now firmly convinced. Many of the bad habits that had crept into my driving (and I see regularly exhibited by others) were addressed (including a tendancy to indicate and pull out without properly appreciating what other road users might be doing). Interestingly the one area of my driving that my instructors felt was consistently good, even before advanced training, was observation, and predicting potential danger. I put this down to time on the bike, and I suspect many people here share this 'sixth sense'.

Many examples have been quoted where people have wrongly failed to indicate - clearly this cannot be condoned, but I would advocate further training and re-testing of all drivers. Allowing someone to pass a test at 17 then continue to drive unassessed, developing lots of faults and bad habits, for the next 60+ years seems crazy to me.

I wouldn't suggest to anyone that they should simply stop indicating, but I do believe that the very best drivers do have a much better perception of what is going on around them, and moderate their driving accordingly, and yes this will include only indicating when there is someone to indicate too.

In my view the most competent cyclists will also use clear signals to make their intentions clear in traffic, but will remain able to react to other road users actions. However when manouvering in quiet areas they won't wave their hands about but will keep both hands on the bars.

bails87

walkingbootweather
I mostly agree with what you're saying, but it's possible to indicate and look. the vast, vast majority of people I see doing stuff without indicating are doing it in 'close' traffic, or on RABs. They're not really looking, AND they're not indicating. I'd rather they looked, but I'd much rather they did both!

As an example, I was on the motorway the other day, in the lane 3. I'd just overtaken a car in the middle lane, I checked over my shoulder, checked my mirrors, then indicated, checked again then started to move. I glanced over my shoulder as I was moving and had to move back into the outside lane because a car in lane 1 had moved out into lane 2 without indicating, and I assume without looking properly, otherwise the driver would have seen me indicating.

I took action to avoid a collision, (including checking my mirrors and blind spots quickly before moving back over. You never know if a motorbike will have already started squeezing through the opening gap) the other driver was utterly oblivious to the fact they'd nearly caused a collision at 70mph.

Once drivers are at a level where the only fault in their driving is 'unnecessary' indicating, then work on only doing it when necessary. But given the standards of driving we typically see, someone indicating when they don't really have to is pretty low down on the 'solvable' causes of collisions (i'd have thought, maybe not). The problem you're describing is down to people not looking, they do that regardless of if they're using their indicators.

Mr Plum

walkingbootweather wrote:

I wouldn't suggest to anyone that they should simply stop indicating, but I do believe that the very best drivers do have a much better perception of what is going on around them, and moderate their driving accordingly, and yes this will include only indicating when there is someone to indicate too.

That's quite a big assumption that you've seen absolutely everything that's going on around you. I'd argue that the very best drivers have a great perception of what's going on around them yet still indicate because they're aware of the possibility they've not seen something that will be effected by their action of not indicating.

Agent57

I always indicate when I'm driving, even if I don't think there's anyone to see it - there's always the chance I've not noticed someone.

I don't always indicate when I'm on my bike; depends what I see when I look behind me. If I'm on the A56 and there's traffic, I'll indicate. If I'm on a minor road and there's no traffic, I probably won't.

jonny_trousers

Not indicating as a way to show you are a more observant driver is complete and utter cobblers; I don't care what the institute of flat caps and suede driving gloves says. If you want to turn left then indicate to me that you are planning to do so (the clue's in the title). It's really not hard!

TuckerUK

We moved up to Norfolk from South London/Surrey a few years ago, and indicating is entirely optional in this county, in fact, I think it's actively discouraged...certainly seems that way!

walkingbootweather

Let's look at this another way.

When crossing at a Pelican do you:

a) always push the button to cross
b) never push the button and just wait for a gap in the traffic
c) assess the situation and push the button only when there is no obvious gap in the traffic?

Do you iron your pants:

a) always
b) never
c) when you are out on the pull and someone might see them?

bails87

No-one irons their pants....surely :shock:

And pushing the button causes other traffic to stop, it has a (minor) 'inconveniencing' effect on other people..

Indicating doesn't inconvenience anyone, not yourself, not other traffic.

I see what you're saying, but what is the harm in indicating? It doesn't slow down your journey, it doesn't take any concentration away from driving.

Not indicating when you should=A Bad Thing
Not indicating when there's no-one else within a mile of you=Not good or bad.
Indicating when there's no-one else within a mile of you=Not good or bad.
Indicating when you should=A Good Thing.

As I've said before, I think it's an irrelevant point anyway, if you don't indicate when there's no-one around, then no-one will see you indicate, so it doesn't matter. It's 'if a tree falls in the forest and there's no-one there...' territory. But if I see someone do something right in front of me without indicating that could be the equiavlent of a tree falling down while I'm trying to climb it.
Time for another anecdote, on the way to work this morning, the road moves to the left. Someone went 'straight on' and so cut across from lane 1 to lane 2, right in front of me (with headlights on) without inidicating.

That's the kind of thing that bugs people, and that's what's dangerous. So few drivers are at the level of attentiveness where they can decide what's going on around them with 100% reliability that it's best for everyone if they indicate too much and wear out a £2 bulb 3% sooner than don't indicate and hit a cyclist that they hadn't spotted, when an indicator would have warned the cyclist that the car was about to pull out.

Yet another anecdote: driving along a country road at 50mph, there's a side road on the right, a car is waiting to pull out, no indicators showing, so he's either going straight on or he's indicating right (and I can't see that side of his car). Maybe half a second away from the junction the car suddenly pulls out, I poop myself, slam the brakes on, expecting a crash, except matey boy's going left, he just didn't think he had to indicate :roll: That could have gone very badly wrong, someone could have ploughed into the back of me, with no ABS/ESP etc I could have ended up in a tree.

rick_chasey

Walkingboot.

Why is always indicating and being aware mutually exclusive?

walkingbootweather

bails87 wrote:

No-one irons their pants....surely :shock:

You'd be surprised. In my youth I certainly had 'pulling pants', which as it happened were remarkably unsuccessful. On the rare occassions I 'got lucky' I always seemed to be wearing the oldest, tattiest undergarments known to humanity. Trust me, burds also have underwear that they are happy to be seen in, and underwear that they are most certainly not happy to be seen in.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Walkingboot.

Why is always indicating and being aware mutually exclusive?

They are not.


The point I'm trying to make is that surely it is better to assess every situation and plan or react accordingly rather than to simply do something automatically.

Am I the only cyclist that have had a near miss only for the driver to excuse himself with "Didn't you see me indicating?", or to be involved in a SMIDSY, even though the driver had made an automatic cursory glance in my direction? I'm sure there are many drivers who indicate and are aware, but there are also many that simply 'go through the motions' or believe indicating gives them the right to make an manouver, and these can be even more dangerous than those who don't indicate when they should.

I have no desire to be a spokesman for the 'flat caps and suede driving gloves brigade', and before I attended additional training I shared the view that indicating 'just in case' was the thing to do. My driving style has definately changed since having advanced training (I think for the better), and I would encourage anyone to give it a try. There is a lot more to it than deciding to indicate or not. If I hadn't mentioned it perhaps many of you wouldn't know that advanced drivers are taught not to indicate, because whenever you have seen them on the road, they have probably also seen you and have therefore made the necessary signals.

In answer to the many anecdotes of drivers that have failed to indicate when they should, I repeat these are bad drivers, and should not be viewed in the same way as good drivers who indicate only when necessary.

If this thread makes people give more thought to what they do, and why they do it, then that is all good.

bails87

walkingbootweather
Very sensible (apart from ironing your pants )

I know the bad drivers aren't the same as an 'advanced' driver indicating when not necessary, but so many drivers have a problem with 'always indicate' that giving them discretion would become 'never indicate'.

And I've avoided being hit due to a driver indicating when I was on the bike. He didn't look, but he flicked his indicator on as I passed him, and pulled out at the same time. If I hadn't have seen the indicator it would have taken a second longer to realise what he was doing and get out of the way.

Obviously the better situation is for him to look, but for all he knew I was a bus or a fire engine, he was convinced it was clear or he wouldn't have pulled out. If you say to people like that "if you're sure it's clear, then don't indicate' then they still won't look and they won't indicate. You're a responsible, sensible adult who gives a toss about your fellow road users, but plenty of people aren't and they can't cope with doing what you're taught on a normal driving lesson, let alone advanced ones.

walkingbootweather

bails,

Not sure anyone who knows me would recognise your description of me as a responsible, sensible adult, but thanks anyway.

Yes there is some shocking driving on our roads which is one of the reason why I think it would be a good thing to have regular formal assessments and a suspension or additional training offered to those that drop below acceptable standards. But this is probably a subject for another thread......

Mr Plum

walkingbootweather wrote:

I'm sure there are many drivers who indicate and are aware, but there are also many that simply 'go through the motions' or believe indicating gives them the right to make an manouver, and these can be even more dangerous than those who don't indicate when they should.

I think this is the crux of the issue - poor driver training in the first place. People are taught to 'go through the motions' to pass their test. They're rarely told why they should go through those motions and it's something they're later left to find out for themselves once they have a full license and learn how to driver properly. Unfortunately some people never learn how to drive properly...

I take issue with your next (and previous) point though - It's pretty arrogant to believe that you're driving level and observation abilities are infallible - it seems pretty ignorant as well. In my eyes it's a worse crime to assess the situation and arrive at the active decision to not indicate because you believe that there's no one around you that will be effected by that action, than someone who's just being lazy and occasionally doesn't indicate when there's not a lot of traffic about. I'm not talking about just 'going through the motions' for the sake of it.

scrumpydave

I'm still bemused by this. I really can't think of a situation where not indicating offers any kind of advantage. No one here advocating strict indicator use is suggesting that it is a valid alternative to being aware of your surroundings.

walkingbootweather

Mr Plum wrote:

It's pretty arrogant to believe that you're driving level and observation abilities are infallible - it seems pretty ignorant as well.

Thank you for sharing you opinion, and I'm sorry if you think me arrogant and ignorant. Feel free to read back though the thread, but I don't think you'll find that I have claimed anywhere that my driving level or observations are infallible. Indeed, I have acknowledged that both were flawed in ways that I hadn't appreciated and do maintain that they have been improved through further instruction.

I'm just a cyclist that now drives a lot less than I used to, and once attended an advanced driving course, I certainly wouldn't claim to be as talented a driver as some of the professionals who have taught me.

The view I have endeavoured to put across is that are held by the majority of the most highly trained motorists in the country; for all I know you may be right and they are all wrong. I don't intend to argue about this, but would encourage anyone to attend an advanced driving taster session, listen to what is said and form their own opinions.

I think my work here is done, I've got some ironing to do.....

Mr Plum

walkingbootweather wrote:

Mr Plum wrote:

It's pretty arrogant to believe that you're driving level and observation abilities are infallible - it seems pretty ignorant as well.

Thank you for sharing you opinion, and I'm sorry if you think me arrogant and ignorant. Feel free to read back though the thread, but I don't think you'll find that I have claimed anywhere that my driving level or observations are infallible. Indeed, I have acknowledged that both were flawed in ways that I hadn't appreciated and do maintain that they have been improved through further instruction.

I'm just a cyclist that now drives a lot less than I used to, and once attended an advanced driving course, I certainly wouldn't claim to be as talented a driver as some of the professionals who have taught me.

The view I have endeavoured to put across is that are held by the majority of the most highly trained motorists in the country; for all I know you may be right and they are all wrong. I don't intend to argue about this, but would encourage anyone to attend an advanced driving taster session, listen to what is said and form their own opinions.

I think my work here is done, I've got some ironing to do.....

Sorry, I should have been more clear or rephrased the part of my post that you've quoted. I did not mean you personally, but 'you' as in anyone, as in hypothetically speaking it would be "pretty arrogant to believe that you're driving level and observation abilities are infallible..." because surely only someone who believes this would make the decision to not indicate if they have not seen anything around them that would be effected by that action? It was that point that I was trying to make, it wasn't meant to be taken personally.

walkingbootweather

No problem Mr Plum,

I'm just bitter and twisted that you have currently made 4 more posts than me (3 after I have made this one) and (allegedly) have a better crease in your pants :shock:

SimonAH

Look. It's really very simple.

You're all on bicycles, some of you will have also racked up some miles on motorcycles and ergo (as a matter of self preservation) we can assume that you probably have a more heightened awareness of hazards especially relative speed to other vehicles and the road surface condition than most tin box pilots out there.

However you are not infallible. It is just one tiny movement of the hand. Please use your bloody indicators.

jonny_trousers

Last time I was knocked off it was because some prat decided to swing a left without indicating. He claimed he hadn't seen me behind him and he may well have been telling the truth, but It was his fault that I was knocked off as, had he indicated his intention to turn left I would have had time to react. It's simple really.

Mr Plum

walkingbootweather wrote:

No problem Mr Plum,

I'm just bitter and twisted that you have currently made 4 more posts than me (3 after I have made this one) and (allegedly) have a better crease in your pants :shock:

Ha, I'm not bragging, ask the missus...