Bike Fit leads to frustrating confusion.

Ezy Rider

so would you say the correct course of action is get the 54cm which has precisely the 543mm top tube the fitter said i needed ? but will the extra 18mm in the seat tube not play a significant role ? fitter said seat tube 522 , the 54cm bike is seat tube 540mm and could the seat end up way too low ?

Ezy Rider

Evil Laugh wrote:

You are not providing enough information for anyone to advise you reliably.

I give up.

what more can i give you ? :shock:

smurfylicious

Ezy Rider wrote:

could the seat end up way too low ?

Not unless they glue the seatpost in place before selling it to stop you from raising the seat. Try sitting on it before you buy, but as you said you wanted a 'racing comfort fit' my advice remains the same. Get the top tube right!

Anyway, I get the impression that you may not have been entirely happy with the fitting so don't base an expensive purchase on one fitters measurements/opinion. Have you tried this yet:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=FIT_CALCULATOR_INTRO

At least it's free (although some of the measurements are a little tricky and you really need a helper and to do it really carefully, probably more than once). Failing that there must be plenty of other fitters, some already recommended in this thread.

merak

I advised you to get the 54 because it's a better fit for top tube length for you and that matters more than seat tube, particularly if you not looking for a large seat to bar drop. I'd rather have that than an overly long stem. But in fact, agonising over two frames that are 1cm different makes no sense at all - they are too close to mean that one will be good and the other bad. Most stock bikes have frame sizes 2 - 3cm or more apart so you are focused on the wrong things here.

I take my advice back. I think now that you shouldn't buy any frame at all at the moment until you have a bike set-up that you have ridden for a while and that you are comfortable with and once you have that you can work with the geometry of the contact points to get your ideal frame. But it sounds like you're not accustomed to or hate a normal stretched out road position so until that's sorted buying a frame from China is a recipe for disappointment. None of your thinking makes sense - if you go for a bike fit you have to ride the new position for at least a few days before you decide if it's good for you. Also it makes no sense to say on the one hand that you hate the position the fitter has given you but then on the other hand use the fitters' advice like a gospel to try and determine the frame you want. I think you should slow down.

BTW, other people have suggested the fitter is incompetent, but you haven't said anything to make me think he has done a bad job - if your personal dimensions are as you described them, then his advice is close to what I'd expect.

merak

Ezy Rider wrote:

so would you say the correct course of action is get the 54cm which has precisely the 543mm top tube the fitter said i needed ? but will the extra 18mm in the seat tube not play a significant role ? fitter said seat tube 522 , the 54cm bike is seat tube 540mm and could the seat end up way too low ?

18mm is less than an inch - and you haven't said whether that ST length is with 170 or 175 cranks. If the latter and you fit 170s the difference is down to half an inch.In any case it's neither here nor there and easily accomodated in the saddle adjustment. You haven't told us what the fitter suggested seat to bar drop is, but my expectation is that you'll have spacers to play with.

But in any case, I think you should stop now, because you've become thoroughly confused, and you should ride the fitter's set-up for a week and see what you think then.

Ezy Rider

merak

when the fitter did the tweaks , he was doing them on a 56cm which was never going to be a good fit. i agree that you are right about holding off splashing cash at the minute. the stretched out position is not comfortable for me, i like it relaxed, a bit more upright and suitable for all day in the saddle if you know i mean. the way the 56cm is set up, 10 mins would do me. i know of another fitter,does the recordings and is more intensive than the guy i used today, im not bringing my bike, he uses a rig and im going to ask him to measure me on something replicating a bike that i can duplicate and cut out the guesswork. at the end of that, i should be sitting on something with dimensions which i know will work for me.

what do you think of this course of action.

Ezy Rider

regarding seat to bar drop, i have the chart here now, the way it is currently set is way way too low for me :x says 25mm from top of saddle to head set and the hoods feel way down and too far away and my arms are locked solid, very uncomfortable and with 175mm cranks , my knees come up far too high

this is depressing me i must look like a clown riding a circus bike :x

smurfylicious

merak wrote:

I think now that you shouldn't buy any frame at all at the moment until you have a bike set-up that you have ridden for a while and that you are comfortable with.................................................

+1

Slow down a bit and reflect on it. Presumably you're thinking of spending a lot of cash. The last thing you want is to buy something that later turns out to be not quite right.

merak

Ezy, there's more to a good fit than instant comfort. If you're going to ride all day you don't want to be sitting bolt upright catching the wind with your shoulders and putting all your weight on the saddle - I exaggerate to make a point. My advice would still be to ride the fitter's set up for a while before you chuck more money at another fit. But if you are going to do it on instant feel why not fettle your current bike until it feels right to you and take it from there.

Why do you think the 56cm frame is ridiculously large for you? - what about it is preventing you getting into a good position - remember there are only three contact points on the bike: bum, hands and feet and I bet you could get your ideal position on the 56 - you might have a short stem, you might have your saddle rammed forward on the rails, you might not have a huge amount of seatpost showing, you might have to remove the spacers on your stem or put some in or flip it, so it might not be a long term solution, but you could do it. I think you are giving frame size too much crirtical importance - it's important of course, but 1 cm more or less is not going to be a deal breaker. What wil be a deal breaker is if you insist on an unusually short or upright position that a normal sporting road frame can't accomodate. Is the Chinese frame a racing frame, a club frame, a touring frame? What is its head tube length? Again, I encourage you to pause and work with your current bike to be sure of what you need before you order from China

merak

Ezy Rider wrote:

regarding seat to bar drop, i have the chart here now, the way it is currently set is way way too low for me :x says 25mm from top of saddle to head set and the hoods feel way down and too far away and my arms are locked solid, very uncomfortable and with 175mm cranks , my knees come up far too high

this is depressing me i must look like a clown riding a circus bike :x

Ezy, 25mm from seat to headset doesn't seem right that's a very low seat and would not be a measurement that you would use in determing a frame size as it's dependent on frame - 25mm seat to bar maybe? Have you tried rotating the bars towards you a bit which will bring the hoods higher and closer?

The 175/170 crank thing will make very little difference (less than half an inch) to how high your knees come up - but the 170 will feel more comfortable to spin for your leg length.

Forget about how you look - it's how you feel that matters - few of us look like Fabian Cancellera on the bike.

Wheelspinner

Hate to chuck in another variable BUT... the whole debate about changing stems to effectively adjust the top tube length is silly. The geometry of the bike is designed so that the saddle setback behind the centre line of the crank axle is correct for the size of the frame, otherwise you will not get a decent handling or efficient climbing frame. One reason TT bikes are so crap to climb on is the steep seat tube angles, with the rider way forward on the bike - great for aero, but useless for climbing and handling. They steer like pigs.

Stem length is only to fine tune the reach, and MUST be considered in conjunction with the handlebars you use, since they all have different reach and drop dimensions too. Otherwise, forget stem length altogether. If the frame doesn't fit properly, changing stems might make a small improvement in comfort, but it still doesn't fit.

You can also use seatpost with more/less setback to fine tune your position, or slide the saddle forward/back a few mm in the clamp.

With that in mind, frame top tube length is certainly more important. Get the right one to start with, THEN worry about the position tuning.

Crank length is very personal I find. Some folks claim to not notice any difference between 170, 172.5 and 175. My experience is that it makes a subtle, but noticeable difference. I'm 184 cm and longish legs and happily use 175. I've had 172.5 which was ok, but used a set of 170 on one frame as a trial and they were awful, felt like a kids trike. I'd be inclined to accept the fitters suggestion that shorter cranks will certainly help you given your dimensions.

hopper1

They should have set up a 54/ 53cm bike in the shop for you to trial (on a turbo), this would have given you a better feel, than the fitter trying to 'shrink' the bike you already have.
Just try sitting on a few bike in that size range, see how they feel...

thegreatdivide

As above, a 175mm crank for a 29" inside leg is pretty extreme to be honest. That's for the big boys. I have a 29" inside leg and have always ridden using a 170mm. Had a proper fit last month and that was their calculation too.

merak

@wheelspinner +1, but I think the downside of compensating for short top tube with stem has been mentioned a few times by varrious posters.

@hopper I can see your point, but I think Ezy does need to ride his best riding geometry for a while to be sure he's used to it and he's happy with it, which won't happen in a fitting session itself. It looks like his best TT length is on a bike around 54cm (although I acknowledge TT lengths vary for a given frame size depending on bike geometry), so 56cm is not outrageously far away - it's not as if they are trying to get him onto a 61cm frame.

Some of the problem here is that he's a rather unusual shape (long torso, short legs) plus he wants what seems from his posts to be a very upright and short position, so a standard road fit bike might not suit him - anyway, these complications are confusing him (and everyone else too it seems, who is trying to give him advice - I for one am confused ; hence my advice to him not go ahead with the purchase until he has sorted out what really suits him).

I have another piece of advice now which is to join a club and use all the free advice of experienced roadies that can actually see him to help him get his position - at least they'll be able to see him riding and be able to give instant feedback and they can show him how they get their positions. Many club riders will be only to happy to help. But trying to do this blind on the forum isn't really working.

Evil Laugh

Ezy Rider wrote:

Evil Laugh wrote:

You are not providing enough information for anyone to advise you reliably.

I give up.

what more can i give you ? :shock:

You haven't really explained why you went for a fit, was your trek comfortable before?

What did the fitter change that made the bike feel so much worse? Did he lower the bars, fit a longer stem? What size/angle stem are you using now/before, how did it feel? What reach and drop bars are you using? What is your ideal saddle height from bb? Again, did he fit you on the bike or just crunch some numbers in a fitting program?

Unless your current bike has a very small headtube, getting a smaller frame could give you even more of a drop to bars, which you are complaining about on a frame that's apparently too big. You really need to consider this too as you could end up with a bike that, for the position you want, is only comfortable with a shedload of spacers and a riser stem. It sounds like you need a bike with a massive headtube but it's all guesswork without more of the above info.



Like lots have said I think you really need to get your fit right on your current bike before buying another. It WILL fit you re contact points and then you have a point of reference to order a new frame.

I would advise you either get your fit sorted either via this fitter you used or going somewhere else that is reputable wrt fitting on your current bike and let them advise you on a Chinese frame or forget the Chinese frame and go to a decent LBS who will let you try a load of bikes and work with you to get the right frame and give you after sales care wrt your fit.

I don't think you have enough of a grasp on things to be able to work this out yourself. You may get it right but you could quite easily buy something unsuitable by the sounds of it.

cedargreen

I'm similar height and proportions and I ended up going custom because I wanted to really nail the fitting thing.

I think a 56cm frame is probably too big for you, and if so, no amount of fiddling with stem sizes is really going to overcome this. As a couple of posters here have pointed out, changing stem etc should be for fine tuning.

My frame is 55cm top and 53cm seat (actually 51cm from bottom bracket to centre of top tube as it's a slightly sloping frame); my guess is you need something similar.

It should be possible to find a frame like this without going custom. Part of the problem here is that there doesn't seem to be an agreed way of measuring frames. In the good old days when all frames were steel and had horizontal top tubes you could simply compare seat tube lengths, the only question was whether the frame was measured from the centre of the bottom bracket to the centre of the top tube, or from centre to centre.

Now, with sloping top tubes of varying angles and even curving top tubes, actual seat tube length is all but irrelevant.

I would ignore manufacturesrs stated size, take a tape measure and look for a frame with an equivalent top tube (ie length of a horizontal line from head tube to seat post) of around 55cm, and an actual seat tube length of 53 cm or less, and have a sit on a few bikes. And take as long as necessary to get the right size, which matters more than anything else.

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

Is the simple answer to go and test ride some bog standard bikes to get a feel for what you want, go to an Evans sit on and ride a Roubaix or Sectuer (seems this the the style of bike you are after) if you like, ebay your bike and buy the one that was most comfortable.

I knew instantly the right bike for me, having tested a few out in various shops.

Serveral times people have asked what prompted the visit to a bike fit?

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

+1 on not ordering a frame mail order based on the diamensions given nor on the advice of a bike fit, IMO you will not know until you have been on it and ridden

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

+1 on not ordering a frame mail order based on the diamensions given nor on the advice of a bike fit, IMO you will not know until you have been on it and ridden

iesous77

Ezy Rider wrote:

it was a pro bike shop and i selected the racing comfort fit, turns out it is anything but comfortable and i think the fit was a waste of my money to be honest.

out of curiosity, if you wanted a upright position why did you get a racing fit?

on a side note just stick with it for a while like everyone has said. I just got a new bike which was bigger than my last, it felt very odd at first and then 2 rides later it felt better than before.

indjke

OP, take 54cm frame!
I'm 5'9" too and riding Trek 1.9 of 54 size with 543 mm ETT and 110 mm stem. Love it much. Great fit. My only problem - 175 mm cranks. Going to replace them onto 170mm ones...

Ezy Rider

are you finding your knees coming up too high as well, id love to see pics of you on that bike to see how it fits you

johncp

Ezy Rider wrote:

so would you say the correct course of action is get the 54cm which has precisely the 543mm top tube the fitter said i needed ? but will the extra 18mm in the seat tube not play a significant role ? fitter said seat tube 522 , the 54cm bike is seat tube 540mm and could the seat end up way too low ?

My bike has an adjustable saddle height.........

Sarcasm apart, you are getting very hung up on exact frame sizes, when, as people have said, you can get the the bars/saddle etc in the same relationship to each other on two different frames by judicious tweaking of stem length etc

ChrisSA

merak wrote:

Ezy Rider wrote:

regarding seat to bar drop, i have the chart here now, the way it is currently set is way way too low for me :x says 25mm from top of saddle to head set and the hoods feel way down and too far away and my arms are locked solid, very uncomfortable and with 175mm cranks , my knees come up far too high

this is depressing me i must look like a clown riding a circus bike :x

Ezy, 25mm from seat to headset doesn't seem right that's a very low seat and would not be a measurement that you would use in determing a frame size as it's dependent on frame - 25mm seat to bar maybe? Have you tried rotating the bars towards you a bit which will bring the hoods higher and closer?

I have just checked the output of my Road Race Comfort, and it shows 25mm from top of saddle to centre of bars at stem. Whereas the Road Race Sport is some 80mm and a hell of a lot more comfortable (for me).

Does it look like this:

kingrollo

IMO crank length is rarley critical - I can't imagine you being perfect on 170 - but totally unsuited on 175 !

Top tube fit is perhaps a different matter again imo this determines if the big is to big or two small. If its two small - you can just by a longer stem - and youre done. To big and your stuggling.

I am 5ft 8 - and have a 535 top tube - with a 110 stem. i would think his assumption of a 543 top tube about right. When in doubt go for the smaller bike - as I have said you can fit a longer stem to get round it.

Personally - I would get a dirt cheap frame either from ebay , ribble , px - don't worry about material - stick your existing kit on that - and see how you feel. Once you are happy and comfy - thats the template for your new bike.

I would also see if you can borrow an MTB - ride that(totally different position) - if you still get pain - it maybe you are carry an injury - which cycling triggers - and until the injury is resolved - bike fit isn't an issue.

I am off the bike injured at the moment - so if you don't sort it - we can always go to the pub and get p*ssed !

Ezy Rider

ChrisSA wrote:

merak wrote:

Ezy Rider wrote:

regarding seat to bar drop, i have the chart here now, the way it is currently set is way way too low for me :x says 25mm from top of saddle to head set and the hoods feel way down and too far away and my arms are locked solid, very uncomfortable and with 175mm cranks , my knees come up far too high

this is depressing me i must look like a clown riding a circus bike :x

Ezy, 25mm from seat to headset doesn't seem right that's a very low seat and would not be a measurement that you would use in determing a frame size as it's dependent on frame - 25mm seat to bar maybe? Have you tried rotating the bars towards you a bit which will bring the hoods higher and closer?

I have just checked the output of my Road Race Comfort, and it shows 25mm from top of saddle to centre of bars at stem. Whereas the Road Race Sport is some 80mm and a hell of a lot more comfortable (for me).

Does it look like this:

chris, that reach of 686mm , what height are you ?

for me it was 655mm and im 5 ft 9 inches.

that seat to bars drop of 80mm you mentioned terrifies me, ar$e in the clouds and face on the ground posture sounds frightening to me

merak

80mm seat to bar drop (and more) is not untypical for a road set-up and it's extremely comfortable and aero foir those who it suits; but I would agree with fitter that something around 25mm would be more suitable - but you're finding even that uncomfortable and it seems you'd prefer no drop or maybe even some rise. Now you're getting outside the normal range of road geometry which you'll only be accomodate with a big stack of spacers or a riser`stem or both. The smaller the frame you buy, the worse this problem will be. To reiterate, since your body proportions are not common and since the position you're trying to achieve is very upright (and short) for a road bike, then you really need to figure out what works for you before bunging the Chinese a wad of cash. Have you thought about my advice to go out with a club?

Ezy Rider

applying your way of thinking merak

like i said, the fitter advised for me

seattube 522mm top tube 543mm

and it boils down to a 53 or 54 frame choice that i want to ride in comfort without ar$e in the skies

the 53 offers seattube 529mm and toptube 539mm

the 54 offers seattube 540mm and toptube 543mm



spoke to a seasoned biker yesterday and he said top tube is king , seat tube has plenty of range , he said definitely the 54, which would you have gone for , im 5 ft 9 shortie and 29 inch inside leg.

merak

Ezy Rider wrote:

spoke to a seasoned biker yesterday and he said top tube is king , seat tube has plenty of range , he said definitely the 54, which would you have gone for , im 5 ft 9 shortie and 29 inch inside leg.

If that's a question I've said 54 from the outset but the difference between 53 and 54 is neither here nor there, nor are you looking for a conventional road position. What does matter is that you get a position that you are completely comfortable with over a period of time and then find a frame and fitting kit that will replicate that before you commit money.

Ringo 68

Ezy Rider wrote:

applying your way of thinking merak

like i said, the fitter advised for me

seattube 522mm top tube 543mm

and it boils down to a 53 or 54 frame choice that i want to ride in comfort without ar$e in the skies

the 53 offers seattube 529mm and toptube 539mm

the 54 offers seattube 540mm and toptube 543mm



spoke to a seasoned biker yesterday and he said top tube is king , seat tube has plenty of range , he said definitely the 54, which would you have gone for , im 5 ft 9 shortie and 29 inch inside leg.

As a novice to road bikes I learnt this lesson the hard way. All the charts had me as a 56cm frame (5' 11"+ and 32"+ inside leg)
I went for a large Boardman as it was meant to be a 55.5cm frame without looking at the top tube length which was a pretty long 57cm.
The bike was too long for me but luckily Halfords swapped it for the next size down which was perfect.