does changing the wheels make a difference ??

coman1985

will changing the wheels and tyres have a major effect on my bike i have a carrera 2011.

I imagine the wheels are the heavy end of the spectrum as i was suprised to find out the forks are steel... thought they would of at least been alluminium...

anyway im doing lil bits to this bike as its going to be a winter project and so all i have to do next year is change my frame...

but people are saying changing my wheels will save me a matter of 400 grams when a fork is going to save me bout 800 grams and i am noticing my bike is heavy comapred to everyone elses

merak

The most significant mass is rotating mass. Nothing wrong with steel forks. I'd rather have reasonable steel than aluminium forks - better ride. You'll get far more bang for your buck upgrading wheels than upgrading forks. The Carrera is relatively heavy because the frame is heavy and the finishing kit is heavy and changing the fork is not going to make a significant difference. But a wheel/tyre upgrade will be worthwhile

unixnerd

I went from 1900g wheels (I'll bet yours are more than that) to 1500g Pro-Lite Braccianos (190 from Ribble), best money I ever spent. Bike is more responsive, accelerates better and climbs much better.

Steel is a good fork material as it bends and absorbs bumps. Get the wheels but keep the old ones for when you sell the bike and get a more expensive one (you will one day, trust me we all do - it's addictive). Even 2000 quid bikes can come with heavy wheels these days.

cougie

http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/WPP ... b-wheelset

these are a good buy. And the Prolites sound a bargain at £190.

mouth

I read somewhere that combined weight for the wheels on my TdF weigh something like 3500gms including tyres, tubes and cassette. Significant weight saving to be had.

coman1985

thanks guys i will check them out....

I consider myself quite fit jus after about 20 miles on my bike i notice it compared to other peoples bikes my pace slows a little and when your riding long distance sometimes i feel i hold people up..

Pickled Pig

Just to add to Merak's post, wheel weight is important because you have to both accelerate the wheel as part of the bike's mass and impart angular momentum to the wheel, so lighter wheels give a double bonus. Also, as most of the wheels weight is in the rim, angular momentum is very high and small weight savings here make a big difference to acceleration.

giant_man

Wheel weight is very important imo. You get a heavier pair of wheels and you really can feel it, depending on the weight of your frame.

pilot_pete

I posted this the other day in another wheel thread. It is my opinion on changing wheels last week on a £3k bike....

I've just replaced my MOst Chall alloy clinchers with a pair of handbuilt 50mm carbon clinchers, with Sapim CX Ray spokes and Novatec Superlight hubs.

The original wheels on my bike were not 'great' according to an ex-pro who did my bikefit and would be the first thing he would change. Well, over a year later I decided to take the plunge. Looking at the various options available I came to a choice between factory built Mavics, Campagnolo or Fulcrums within my £700 budget. Zipps et al were just too expensive.

I could not get any of the factory wheels through my local bike store without a significant lead time, so I started looking at handbuilt wheels as an option. 2-3 weeks for handbuilts and you get many, many options of rim/ hub/ spoke combinations. Add this to the experience and advice from a highly recommended wheel builder and my decision was made.

So, differences/advantages/ disadvantages.

MOst Chall are Pinarello's house brand of wheels. I have no idea if they manufacture or build them themselves or if they just get an outside firm's wheels and badge them. They are a 30mm alloy clincher on MOst hubs (same again, not sure if they are re-branded). 20 spokes front, 24 rear. All black with MOst branding, obviously styled to compliment the bike.

I found them ok, but with little to compare due no other experience. What I did find annoying though was the amount of flex I would get from the back wheel when climbing. It really wasn't very stiff and would catch the brake blocks with each pedal stroke, despite them being adjusted as far away as I could get them whilst still allowing for them to work! The wheels weight about 1500g without skewers.

I was interested to be advised by the wheelbuilder that he would recommend a higher spoke count in wheels such as those for someone my weight (82kg). Perhaps that had something to do with the amount of flex? Obviously they are a more 'budget' oriented wheel.

On to my new Carbon Clinchers. Gigantex 50mm carbon rims, Sapim CX Ray spokes, count 20/24, on Novatec Superlight hubs. Total weight without skewers 1385g. Cost £680 delivered including rim tape, skewers and set of carbon suitable pads for my Campagnolo brakes. Great value considering the factory options and lead times.

First ride was a revelation. They have transformed my Pinarello FP3. This is not just me wanting to believe it because I have spent the money, it is a reasoned, honest, critical judgement from someone who makes such judgements for a living...

They spin up to speed faster, the bike handling feels 'lighter' (the gyroscopic effect of the spinning mass lent into corners). The ride feels smoother with road imperfections being absorbed more, which makes me feel like they are really complimenting the frame and bringing out it's true potential. Bumps before were definitely harsher.

Maintaining a high speed feels much easier, which must be the aero advantage. On the flats and downhill this is really noticeable, probably the most marked difference. Having said that, climbing feels no different to me. Perhaps there is a small advantage, or even a disadvantage, I cannot tell. However, there is very little flex like the MOst wheels, so that is a plus.

Braking for the first couple of corners felt 'interesting', but I think that was just a bit of bedding in being required. Did a hundred miles at the weekend and boy do they stop in the dry! Not tried in the wet yet.....supossedly these are good though according to Derek at Wheelsmith who built them. It was blustery up on the hills and you do feel this through the deep section rims. I had visions of it being really bad before trying a set of these wheels, but it is more a case of you just need to be aware of it rather than feeling you will lose control. I vowed to change hand positions one at a time as the only real adaptation. Like I said, it is noticeable, but not overly concerning.

They have a interesting mechanical 'hum' to them when you get them spinning, I guess a result of the aerodynamics of the rim/ spokes, which sounds quite pleasing.

So overall I am very pleased with them. They are a big improvement on the flats and downhill, and my climbing was already reasonable and these don't seem to have hindered that so I am happy. With this recommended spoke count they should prove strong too, and the bearings are super smooth.

PP

Oh, forgot to add that they do look the mutts nuts as well!

coman1985

I am going to go to my lbs and speak to them about whats rite for me with bikes i just didnt realise that they make such a difference!!

Pilot pete i really appreciate you taking the time to write about your experiences and i weigh 86 kg so i would need a heavier spoke wheel on the rear that had come across my mind on reading certain things i really wanna ride on some carbon wheels now and see what there like..

would i get away with a 20 spoke front wheel then being on the heavier side?

GenevaCamper

PX type Bs get loads of good feedback on here but personally I found they had quite a lot of flex- really noticed the difference movingbto Campag Zondas. I'm not particularly heavy either (65 kg). The other big difference was the quality if the hubs - seemed to add a couple of km an hour on the flat.

markos1963

Definatly agree about a good set of wheels being a good and effective upgrade. One thing to point out though it's unlikely you'll go faster on the flat with them at first no matter how aero they are, you'll be quicker over a hilly course with lighter wheels, this is because aero benefits only come into effect at around 25mph so unless you can hold that speed for any length you'll miss out. The biggest obstacle to going fast is the rider and their position on the bike.

merak

@Markos, What makes you say that aero effects only come into effect at 25mph? Sure, the faster you go the more aero effects matter, but at 20mph (with no wind) more than 80% of your power goes into overcoming aerodynamic drag. So aero wheels will provide some benefit at lower speeds.

The question then becomes whether the aerodynamic benefit of aero wheels at say 20mph is greater than the penalty you pay for them being heavier? In other words do you gain more from aero wheels or light wheels? And the answer to that depends not just on your average speed, but on how hilly your ride is and how windy it is. For example if you are riding on a flat route the aero wheels will likely be faster at 20mph and that effect will be made bigger if it's windy.

All of this assumes all else is equal. No argument with the point that getting yourself more aero will likely have more benefit than fitting aero wheels. On my everyday road bike I choose light wheels over aero wheels, because the benefits of lightness outweigh the benefits of aero for general riding that includes hills (and one benefit of the light wheels is that shallow section light wheels give a more comfortable ride than deep section aero wheels).

As I read it, the OP is looking to buy light wheels not aero wheels.

plumpy

It would be questionable to spend a single pound upgrading a Carrera TDF (rather than putting it in a piggy bank towards a better bike). It would be crazy to spend £200 - 300 to put better alloy wheels on it; and utterly bonkers to start thinking about carbon wheels. If you've got that kind of money, get the better bike now.

merak

Good wheels are readily moveable to other bikes. And they'll give an immediate improvement to the riding experience. I agree with you about it not being sensible to spend huge money but buying a pair of lighter wheels for 300ish is not crazy IMHO as he can bung the stock wheels back on the Carrera when he eventually gets shot of it and he still has a really decent par of wheels.

unixnerd

buying a pair of lighter wheels for 300ish is not crazy IMHO as he can bung the stock wheels back on the Carrera when he eventually gets shot of it and he still has a really decent par of wheels.

+1

coman1985

sorry guys i dont have a tdf i have a virtuoso 2011 (not much better but a little)

and i dont want to buy a bike that everyone else has and one thing i do like about cycling is that you can be creative i dont have lots of money but i want to be able to get bits for this bike and in my garage so next summer i can buy a carbon frame and forks and have bragging rites that i built a half tidy bike over the winter that is designed how i want it.

Just how i personally want to do it...

Ive seen boardman giants and treks and i agree way better for the money but you buy its done then what you start spending on it again build it as you go enjoy it ride the hell out of it ...

I brought a virtuoso because i am an idiot but i didnt think i would love it as i do and i regret buying it but its what i have now i dont want a £2000 machine i just want a £1200 machine that isnt store brought and i hear wheels on £1200 bikes aint all that either

unixnerd

I hear what you're saying. I bought my Cannondale for 400, it was three years old and had only done 100 miles - cost new was around 1200. Lots of used bargains around now that you know what you're looking at. As far as buying a first bike is concerned I think you did the right thing and I'd certainly keep it as a bad weather ride, I use my tourer for that (bought new for 450 years ago).

lemoncurd

OP - why do you want a new set of wheels?

- are you racing?
- falling behind your mates?
- struggling up hills?
- do your current wheels not function correctly?

You mention a 400g saving but this is peanuts on a low-end bike, just over half a water bottle's worth, it's just not worth the money.

If you're serious about road cycling then I'd stash the cash and put it towards a better road bike.

merak

@lemoncurd, if you read the thread you will see that saving weight in wheels is different and more significant than saving weight elsewhere.

Don't we all want the best ride we can get whether we're racing or not? And don't we all struggle up hills (if you aren't you're not trying hard enough - Rule 10)

unixnerd

You mention a 400g saving but this is peanuts on a low-end bike, just over half a water bottle's worth, it's just not worth the money.

Trust me (as an engineering graduate) it really is. I saved 400g but I suspect the OP will be a good bit more than that. Rotating mass is a whole different ball game. I'll be he'd get another 100g per wheel by using more expensive tyres too.

coman1985

I am struggling up hills abit i do hold my mates up which is embarassing but most of all i know i have a bottom end bike lol we know that.... (think im gonna lie from now on)

I would love to build a bike from scratch was just tryin to buy bits to help me get up to pace a little with my friends and the other bits i buy will be stashed ready for my bike next year...

I know im not a real cyclist as im quite new but i think anyone who doesnt have an ambition to build there dream bike themselves is missing out i would love to say i built something bit by bit give me something to aim for as well as the 60 mile marker 80 and 100..

im not gonna be racing and if i did then yes i will get a pre built and mess about with that but maybe u like the idea of all these aftermarket parts maybe i wanna be a boy racer on a bike with shiny bits i just dont wanna be another rep in a bmw because i can i wanna have a bmw merc and audi wrapped in one with my choice

people put extensions on houses instead of buying bigger ones and ford put turbos on family cars people buy them instead of a bmw doesnt make it wrong just wanna do something different and dont wanna ride past another one

unixnerd

I know im not a real cyclist

I think you're underestimating yourself. Anyone with a road bike who's in the process of upgrading it and setting themselves up for longer rides very definitely IS a real cyclist.

Having a great bike is wonderful. But a lot of it is just about making do with what you have and plugging on. The hills will seem smaller when you're fitter, but there's nothing wrong with getting new wheels to help either. The important thing is to get out there and pedal as often as you can, anything else is a bonus.

neiltb

if the wheels do weigh 3500g (as suggested) then for a relatively small (135 quid for khamsins on CRC) outlay he can get that almost in half, 3lb off the weight of the bike and they would then do as training wheels if he gets a better bike.

I am sure he would notice that!!

lemoncurd

merak wrote:

@lemoncurd, if you read the thread you will see that saving weight in wheels is different and more significant than saving weight elsewhere.

Don't we all want the best ride we can get whether we're racing or not? And don't we all struggle up hills (if you aren't you're not trying hard enough - Rule 10)

Of course we all want the best ride.

But, don't believe everything that you read in forums (or Wikipedia come to that).

Read the "Advantages of light wheels" and "Aerodynamics vs power" sections of this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance

Still convinced that lighter wheels are worth your money? Provide a link with an article that demonstrates the advantages of light wheels - not an anecdotal "my light wheels are much faster" post in a forum.

thescouselander

I'm with lemoncurd on this one - lighter wheels are all well and good but I think the advantages can be over stated at times. I think the wikipedia article explains it pretty well.

Some go on a lot about how heavy wheels are more difficult to "spin up" but then I see people pulling off from stand still in a really big gear. Its easy enough to get the wheels spinning if you use your gears properly and that costs nothing.

kylemalco

Dont believe everything you read on wiki then post a wiki link? Buy a good set of wheels mate i put shimano rs30 wheels on my ten year old dawes giro there was rigid with quand hubs over nite my average speed increased 2mph

unixnerd

Whoever wrote the wiki article (which I've seen before) makes the assumption that power input is constant. It's not and that's why wheel weight is important. When you're climbing the bike is constantly going through small accelerations and decelarations every half revolution of the cranks. This small change in rotational inertia is the reason light wheels DO make a difference climbing. To a lesser extent the same is true on the flat.

I live in the Cairngorms and do lots of big hills (including a ten mile time trial that finishes at Cairngorm's top car park!), I can assure you that lighter wheels do help you climb, it's not a placebo effect.

Del N

And apart from all that has been said, wich is very interesting, the more expensive wheels look nicer, lol

thescouselander

unixnerd wrote:

Whoever wrote the wiki article (which I've seen before) makes the assumption that power input is constant. It's not and that's why wheel weight is important. When you're climbing the bike is constantly going through small accelerations and decelarations every half revolution of the cranks. This small change in rotational inertia is the reason light wheels DO make a difference climbing. To a lesser extent the same is true on the flat.

I live in the Cairngorms and do lots of big hills (including a ten mile time trial that finishes at Cairngorm's top car park!), I can assure you that lighter wheels do help you climb, it's not a placebo effect.

I'm not convinced of that argument. In theory more massive wheels should lead to a steadier speed vs less massive wheels due to the fly wheel effect. Since stored energy is proportional to the moment of inertia (and so mass) but also the angular velocity squared it is the variation in speed that will be the more sensitive factor.

Thats the theory at least.

lemoncurd

kylemalco wrote:

Dont believe everything you read on wiki then post a wiki link?

Here's a link to the phrase 'Tongue-in-cheek': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue-in-cheek

My point is that light wheels are not always the answer, and even if they are, the case for them is subjective rather than proven. Here's Michael Hutchinson during his 11th consecutive National 50-mile Championship victory last year.



Hutch is obviously interested in nothing else but speed, so why doesn't he use the lightest wheels that money can buy (the rear wheel alone is about 1200g)?

If you're an elite cyclist, competing in the mountain stage of a race then sure, light wheels would be advantageous. Is that what the OP is up to on his Carerra?

unixnerd wrote:

Trust me (as an engineering graduate)

Well done. I'm a wizard.

unixnerd wrote:

makes the assumption that power input is constant. It's not

The change in power that you talk of would only occur if you are constantly accelerating and decelerating, perhaps if you are out of the saddle and struggling up a hill. In these circumstances I can see that a greater mass at the rim would make a difference. But really, this is last resort hill climbing. Far better to get up a hill by maintaining a constant speed which would require a more or less constant supply of power to the pedals. Am I correct? Of course I am.

kylemalco wrote:

over nite my average speed increased 2mph

What was your average speed after the wheel upgrade? If I could buy that performance improvement I would. It's just that the anecdotal evidence doesn't persuade me that it's worth it.