New Adam & Eve trail at Coed y Brenin 'Trail Tips' video

paul.skibum

That trail looks like a motorway. What's with the grey gravel everywhere, what's wrong with earth and rocks?

Campbell Coaching

Hi,
There is miles of good semi natural trail there and this section is part of a trail extension program to allow less experienced riders to also enjoy the forest but also giving more experienced riders something to play on too.

tlw1

A long overdue trip back is needed!

nonnac85

Did that section several times at the weekend - great fun :-)

Anonymous

Campbell Coaching wrote:

Hi,
There is miles of good semi natural trail there and this section is part of a trail extension program to allow less experienced riders to also enjoy the forest but also giving more experienced riders something to play on too.

Why is it on the MBR then?
Are you planning on taming all of the MBR to make it more acceesible to people who can't ride?
How else will these inexperienced riders get there?

ilovedirt

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Campbell Coaching wrote:

Hi,
There is miles of good semi natural trail there and this section is part of a trail extension program to allow less experienced riders to also enjoy the forest but also giving more experienced riders something to play on too.

Why is it on the MBR then?
Are you planning on taming all of the MBR to make it more acceesible to people who can't ride?
How else will these inexperienced riders get there?

This guy has nothing to do with the trail building at coed y brenin, so there's not a lot of point asking him, you want to ask andy the forest ranger.... Though it is a valid question, it looks a little easy for the MBR/beast, it would probably have been better as an offshoot of the new blue.

Anonymous

Because the forest ranger doesn't reply to emails...

ilovedirt

That's nowt to do with this bloke though....

Anonymous

But it is in line with the topic, no?

Thewaylander

It is indeed with topic Yee, and veiw and can only agree 100% with at these times

wordnumb

I love the idea of posting a skills video for riding a trail / motorway that's safer surfaced than any of the roads in my home town.

Northwind

I've not ridden this new trail, but with the trailbuilder's hat on I can see a few things straight away

1) Yes it's a smooth gravel path. That's what new armoured machine built trails look like. Give it a little time and use, and growth will encroach on the unridden surfaces, and the surface will lose that ironed-out smoothness.

2) Yes it'll be piss-easy if you want to just trundle down the easy lines- it's just like the new blue section Berm Baby Berm at Glentress, anyone can roll down it but if you want to do it fast and well that's a different story. If it's been done right, it'll give out what you put in. (It's absolutely inevitable that people will trundle down it, never leaving the ground, never getting out of the bottom of the berms, then say at the bottom "That was too easy")

3)

What's with the grey gravel everywhere, what's wrong with earth and rocks?

- it's an armoured weatherproof trail for high traffic volumes. Mixed compressed hardcore is a stronger surface, it'll keep its shape and structure better than mineral earth does. And CYB doesn't lack rocks after all! And also, look at the hill it's on, where are they going to find roots?

4) CYB also doesn't cater all that well for lower end riders, which for a centre of its size and fame is weird. Though I'll reserve judgement on that a wee bit til I see exactly where it is on the trail to be fair, if it's only accessible by harder trails that'll be a bit odd. As far as I know, this is a totally new trail, doesn't replace an old section?

5)

wordnumb wrote:

I love the idea of posting a skills video for riding a trail / motorway that's safer surfaced than any of the roads in my home town.

What's wrong with that? Skills vids don't have to be about how to survive hard trails. Those are perfect features to show basic techniques, those lovely big smooth berms and the choices of lines are great for teaching. Not to mention that there'll be plenty of people who have no idea at all what to do with that hip/rhythm section.

ilovedirt

Northwind wrote:

4) CYB also doesn't cater all that well for lower end riders, which for a centre of its size and fame is weird. Though I'll reserve judgement on that a wee bit til I see exactly where it is on the trail to be fair, if it's only accessible by harder trails that'll be a bit odd. As far as I know, this is a totally new trail, doesn't replace an old section?

To be fair, they've just put in a new beginner blue trail (the minotaur), so why they couldn't have done this section in keeping with the rest of the MBR i'm not sure... The false teeth section they re-did last year was finished similarly with that mixed compressed hardcore, however it had a lot more interesting features, bigger jumps, some nice drops (all rollable mind), if they had done this section a bit more like that, it would have been great. No doubt i'll be down there to check it out in the next few weeks anyway, it's probably fun, just a little easy.

Northwind

The new False Teeth is mint isn't it. Really well thought out, good sightlines, different ways to approach it...

Like I say, if you attack it as hard as you can, I suspect you'll find it less easy than you think If it's been done right, it looks like the sort of trail that you go "Next time I'll be a little faster", or "If I hit that berm harder I can get more air off that jump" and each repeat will reward the extra effort. The Runway at Carron Valley's very like that, it's not that rewarding just to ride, but when you attack it there's a whole different trail to find.

Though yeah, I think the location's important, and possibly just a bit odd.

Anonymous

This new Adam and Eve section is roughly a third of the way along the MBR route, meaning it doesn't make sense to aim it at novice riders.

As for the False Teeth section - I have issues with that too.
It's good fun, but goads you into a false sense of security, with no suggestion that things are building up.
And there's been a ton of accidents there.

ilovedirt

Well there is a warning sign on that big drop, that's the only bit i can think of on there that's particularly dangerous.

Northwind

yeehaamcgee wrote:

This new Adam and Eve section is roughly a third of the way along the MBR route, meaning it doesn't make sense to aim it at novice riders.

Where is it? Temptyr and Yr Afon run pretty close to the MBR do they not?

Also, is it a standalone development or part of an ongoing build? Tourist Trap at Glentress had a weird green surrounded by reds for a long time, but now it's part of the lower green loop.

Thewaylander

To be honest I've yet too se the hardcore parts of trail become anything but motorways, they don't wear into something more natural at all.

And even when ripping them they are not challenging i'm sorry to tell you. There just useless in my veiw. No off camber no obsticles, the way trails are being built i'm starting to think hardtails are the way again if you just do trail centres.

sheepsteeth

it looks like a bit of fun, i can see why it upsets some rad core riders and it would be a better idea if it was easier to get to for more novice riders.

Northwind

Thewaylander wrote:

To be honest I've yet too se the hardcore parts of trail become anything but motorways, they don't wear into something more natural at all.

The problem here is that once a trail's worn in, people forget it used to be a grey gravel motorway! But you can knock the top off an old trail and look at what's underneath and be surprised.

Thewaylander

To be honest no i wouldn't, been riding a long time.

The concrete trails never become anything approaching a natural feeling it's obvious where it's been done, they remain level have very little growth through them, all that happens is the totally smooth tope tends to rut and wear in the wet weather

Northwind

Thewaylander wrote:

The concrete trails never become anything approaching a natural feeling it's obvious where it's been done

Just can't agree with that tbh. Sometime's it's very obvious as it depends on the maintenance methods and initial construction, but there are plenty of places where crushed stone trails blend in with as-dug and most people see no difference. In fact, there are fully-constructed trails that a lot of people assume are all-natural. I was blind to all this til I started getting involved in digging tbh.

This one's never going to be a skinny singletrack, but then it's not supposed to be.

Anonymous

Skinny, rocky, loose singletrack is what was there before. The trails here are nothing like Glentress in terms of build or surface.
Glentress is mostly smooth, with large ttfs to add interest, wherad round here it has traditionally been exceptionally rocky and rough, without relying on ttfs.

Northwind

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Skinny, rocky, loose singletrack is what was there before

Ah, so it replaced an old trail? That's not so good

ilovedirt

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Skinny, rocky, loose singletrack is what was there before. The trails here are nothing like Glentress in terms of build or surface.
Glentress is mostly smooth, with large ttfs to add interest, wherad round here it has traditionally been exceptionally rocky and rough, without relying on ttfs.

Yeah, i do prefer north wales trail centres in that way, they (mostly) seem a lot more natural than glentress etc, they're a lot more manicured and like you say, even on the reds, they're pretty damn smooth but with a lot of optional features, drops, jumps etc, but they're not really that testing, fun though. Welsh trails seem to be a lot rougher/natural with a bigger focus on technical skill rather than riding quickly in places.

bails87

ilovedirt wrote:

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Skinny, rocky, loose singletrack is what was there before. The trails here are nothing like Glentress in terms of build or surface.
Glentress is mostly smooth, with large ttfs to add interest, wherad round here it has traditionally been exceptionally rocky and rough, without relying on ttfs.

Yeah, i do prefer north wales trail centres in that way, they (mostly) seem a lot more natural than glentress etc, they're a lot more manicured and like you say, even on the reds, they're pretty damn smooth but with a lot of optional features, drops, jumps etc, but they're not really that testing, fun though. Welsh trails seem to be a lot rougher/natural with a bigger focus on technical skill rather than riding quickly in places.

And I'm exactly the opposite

I wasn't that impressed with Cwm Carn because compared to where I've really enjoyed riding (Cannock, Whinlatter are two examples) it felt featureless but bumpy. Like riding a road bike along a cobbled road, no real challenge in riding it at any speed, but it just chatters about as you go over it. Do it faster and it just gets 'chattery-er'. Whereas places like the section in the video (I admit it does look very smooth) tend to give back what you put in, ride it quickly and the features become more fun, do it slowly and you won't even notice them.

wordnumb

Northwind wrote:

5)

wordnumb wrote:

I love the idea of posting a skills video for riding a trail / motorway that's safer surfaced than any of the roads in my home town.

What's wrong with that? Skills vids don't have to be about how to survive hard trails. Those are perfect features to show basic techniques, those lovely big smooth berms and the choices of lines are great for teaching. Not to mention that there'll be plenty of people who have no idea at all what to do with that hip/rhythm section.

It's the width of the trail that gets me. Fair enough, build a weatherproof trail that can be ridden with slicks, but at least keep it slim so that you have to keep the bike on the trail. It doesn't look like you could get A&E wrong if you tried.

Northwind

Most likely it's the width of the digger... No trees to work around so they've used a big 360.

I'm kinda reversing my position here I think... Been working based on it being a totally new trail but if they've knocked out a bit of old handbuilt to build this, that's not the same thing.

(though, I don't remember any nice singletrack going over an open hill like that at CYB... Was it a logged out section?)

Anonymous

Northwind wrote:

(though, I don't remember any nice singletrack going over an open hill like that at CYB... Was it a logged out section?)

do you remember the MBR trail at all?
It starts from the cafe, goes over a rocky armoured section, then turns left and climbs relentlessly up a gravel and rough tarmac road, then breaks off to the right and goes up a very very steep climb over basically loose babyhead rocks.
From there there's a short section of climb to the first descent, and this basically, descends all the way down to a river crossing, over the "Cain, Slated & Abel" sections.
This new bit basically replaces "slated", the middle section of that descent. It was a fast, loose rocky descent with a few deep puddles, and some wet roots. One of those "see how long you can stay off the brakes before chickening out" sections.

The new section runs almost parallel to it, and they actually suggest that if you want to session it, you can use the old "slated" as a push-up path.

Now, the thing is (whilst we're clarifying opinions), I'm not opposed to trails like this. I actually enjoy them. It's one of the reasons I fins Llandegla so much fun.
But, they have their place, and I reckon turning the old CYB trails into such motorways is a bad thing.
By all means build new trails with this kind of feature, or, hell, even add new sections of these to older loops, but don;t go replacing the old sections with this.

And as for the video (and the section) being supportive of inexperienced riders, well, they sure as hell shouldn't be on the MBR, or Beast anyway.

Thewaylander

bails87 wrote:

ilovedirt wrote:

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Skinny, rocky, loose singletrack is what was there before. The trails here are nothing like Glentress in terms of build or surface.
Glentress is mostly smooth, with large ttfs to add interest, wherad round here it has traditionally been exceptionally rocky and rough, without relying on ttfs.

Yeah, i do prefer north wales trail centres in that way, they (mostly) seem a lot more natural than glentress etc, they're a lot more manicured and like you say, even on the reds, they're pretty damn smooth but with a lot of optional features, drops, jumps etc, but they're not really that testing, fun though. Welsh trails seem to be a lot rougher/natural with a bigger focus on technical skill rather than riding quickly in places.

And I'm exactly the opposite

I wasn't that impressed with Cwm Carn because compared to where I've really enjoyed riding (Cannock, Whinlatter are two examples) it felt featureless but bumpy. Like riding a road bike along a cobbled road, no real challenge in riding it at any speed, but it just chatters about as you go over it. Do it faster and it just gets 'chattery-er'. Whereas places like the section in the video (I admit it does look very smooth) tend to give back what you put in, ride it quickly and the features become more fun, do it slowly and you won't even notice them.

Go faster it doesn't get more chattery... Go faster and you start to float over the rocks at speed.... this is why i always say learning to ride rocks takes time if you find it overly chattery you not quite getting it right.

Northwind

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Now, the thing is (whilst we're clarifying opinions), I'm not opposed to trails like this. I actually enjoy them. It's one of the reasons I fins Llandegla so much fun.But, they have their place, and I reckon turning the old CYB trails into such motorways is a bad thing.
By all means build new trails with this kind of feature, or, hell, even add new sections of these to older loops, but don;t go replacing the old sections with this.

Cheers for clearing it up- yep, agree totally then, I remember Slated... Adding this as an alternative I'd totally approve of but turning a perfectly good trail into a pushup seems stupid. (I approve of pretty much any new trail anywhere, as long as it doesn't feck up old trails) New trail, huh.

Only thing I can see redeeming that would be if they're going to do something with Yr Afon that links it up, since it runs right by it. Otherwise it just seems like bad planning.