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Increasing leg strength

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  • BronzieBronzie Posts: 4,927
    dorian+yates.jpg

    TomPlatz2.jpg

    I suspect both of them would have major trouble actually riding a bike given the sheer "awesomeness" of their thighs.

    So how are they relevant to this discussion Dennis?
  • PseudonymPseudonym Posts: 1,032
    the top one looks a bit like Sean Kelly......
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,286
    Ye gods; bodybuilders are a funny lot. Those two are just grotesque! Why would you do that to your own body???
  • The point that I've still never got a clear answer on is where the extra "power" comes from. You studiously avoid "force" and "torque" (rotational force) yet they are the foundation of power.

    I'm not arguing just trying to understand.
    That's because the foundation of power is not force, but rather our ability to generate the volume of ATP (click link to see what that is) required to meet the energy demand in the time required. ATP is the "unit of energy currency" in our bodies.

    Force is just what we measure and is a result of contractions in our muscles which occur due to the energy released by available ATP.

    We can produce ATP in a number of ways, through either anaerobic (without oxygen) processes (which supply ATP very quickly and as a result, quite inefficiently* - that's the trade off for speed of supply) and/or aerobically (with oxygen) processes (which can be maintained pretty much indefinitely, provided we eat, since a limitless supply is available in the air we breathe). When exercising we are using both processes all the time, just the proportions vary depending on what we are doing.

    We are only capable of maintaining anaerobic processes for a very short time, beyond that and we need oxygen to keep on supplying the ATP demand (and to replenish any anaerobic work capacity we have used up).

    Hence, we are not limited by the maximal force we can produce, rather we are limited by our ability to generate sufficient ATP via aerobic processes to meet the ongoing demand to sustain the repeatedly applied (sub-maximal) forces involved in cycling. It is those underlying aerobic processes that we need to improve in order to go further, faster.

    Once the ATP demand from any activity exceeds that which can be supplied by aerobic metabolism, then the activity has either a short lifetime, or it must reduce in intensity eventually (which might be seconds to minutes), i.e. we are forced to slow down.

    And the best training to enhance aerobic capacities are those that stimulate the body's underlying infrastructure to supply the inputs (sugars and oxygen), perform the chemical reactions and remove the waste (water and carbon dioxide). In particular this is dictated by the number and size of mitochondria in our muscle cells (in which the chemical reactions that supply ATP are performed) and the proximity and density of the blood supply network (capillaries inside the muscles) to those mitochondria which provides the oxygen & sugar (glycogen) required to produce energy.

    The type of training that best induces these changes is hard aerobic exercise, especially exercise which uses the specific muscles in the manner desired for performance.

    Training to increase maximal force (i.e. strength) has the opposite effect on the size and number of mitochondria and it decreases the proximity of the blood supply to the mitochondria. This is roughly akin to making bigger highways between the cities to deal with the large short term traffic flow but closing off many small distribution roads so the trucks can't get the resources to the factories in the towns nearly as quickly (and so ongoing production slows), nor remove their waste.

    That's why are high force athletes like say weightlifters are not also champion aerobic athletes (runners, swimmers, cyclists, rowers, X-country skiers etc). Training to apply high force is about the release of a vast quantity of ATP in a very short time. That however is not what limits an endurance (racing) cyclist, who needs ATP supplied in an ongoing manner, the more one can do this, the more sustainably powerful you can be. And it also means you can recover far more quickly from anaerobic efforts and be able to repeat them more frequently and more often.


    * Aerobic production of ATP (using carbs as fuel) is 19 times more efficient that anaerobic processes. IOW, anaerobic efforts "burn" carbs at 19 times the rate for the same energy output as an aerobic process.

    See this link and video for an intro to aerobic/anaerobic processes:
    http://www.diffen.com/difference/Aerobi ... espiration

    Ooh, seems like I do kinda necroposting, but this is incredible post, Alex!
    Things have never been so clear for me before.
    Thanks!
    Boardman Team C / 105 / Fulcrum Racing 3
  • Jeez Dennis, you wandered into the room, let 1 off and wandered out again.... :D
    My pen won't write on the screen
  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,492
    Bronzie wrote:
    dorian+yates.jpg

    TomPlatz2.jpg

    I suspect both of them would have major trouble actually riding a bike given the sheer "awesomeness" of their thighs.

    So how are they relevant to this discussion Dennis?

    Why do they have to be relevent to anything? Just commenting. And anyway the discussion had not had a post in a week or two.
  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,492
    keef66 wrote:
    Ye gods; bodybuilders are a funny lot. Those two are just grotesque! Why would you do that to your own body???

    They're bodybuilders. It's what they do. Some of them make a damn good living at it.
    In any case beauty or not beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
  • SlackSlack Posts: 326
    Looks like the gentleman in the bottom image has been skinned.
    Plymouthsteve for councillor!!
  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,492
    Bronzie wrote:
    dorian+yates.jpg

    TomPlatz2.jpg

    I suspect both of them would have major trouble actually riding a bike given the sheer "awesomeness" of their thighs.

    I'm going to assume you're joking, but in case you're not I would remind you of whole bunches of track racers around the world who, according to you, shouldn't be able to ride a bike at all, due to massive thighs, yet somehow, somehow they seem to pull it off.
    Odd thing about it is that their big thighs seem to be what helps them do it. How can this be??? :? :?
  • PseudonymPseudonym Posts: 1,032
    dennisn wrote:
    I'm going to assume you're joking, but in case you're not I would remind you of whole bunches of track racers around the world who, according to you, shouldn't be able to ride a bike at all, due to massive thighs, yet somehow, somehow they seem to pull it off.
    Odd thing about it is that their big thighs seem to be what helps them do it. How can this be??? :? :?

    I'm going to assume you're joking, because you've already had the answer to this question beaten into you several times on this thread. You are clearly now trolling for effect.....
  • fish156fish156 Posts: 496
    Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
  • Murr XMurr X Posts: 258
    dennisn wrote:
    Bronzie wrote:
    dorian+yates.jpg

    TomPlatz2.jpg

    I suspect both of them would have major trouble actually riding a bike given the sheer "awesomeness" of their thighs.

    I'm going to assume you're joking, but in case you're not I would remind you of whole bunches of track racers around the world who, according to you, shouldn't be able to ride a bike at all, due to massive thighs, yet somehow, somehow they seem to pull it off.
    Odd thing about it is that their big thighs seem to be what helps them do it. How can this be??? :? :?
    Hi Dennis,

    Theo Bos was a "skinny" track sprinter and not so bad. The muscle helps track sprinters due to the anaerobic nature of the very short events, though there is certainly not a strong correlation between the size of the track sprinter and their performance at elite level for instance.

    I have met both of the two bodybuilders above Dorian Yates and Tom Platz. Tom is a very decent and intelligent man who remembered me from the first time I met him several years before.

    Dorian Yates was the first of the super giants though Markus Ruhl had the upper hand in the musculature department, I stood beside Markus a few years ago and he is the same height as myself but at the time was twice the weight I was, he is a very approachable guy too and makes time for fans. According to a friend of mine who attended Mr Olympia in one of the first years after it moving to Vegas Markus dwarfed Ronnie Coleman who won that year and to think as a young adult he weighed just 60Kg.

    Mr Olympia is taking place this weekend and I think that Phil Heath may just knock big Jay off his top spot. Anyway getting well of topic again...

    Murr X
  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,492
    Murr X wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    Bronzie wrote:
    dorian+yates.jpg

    TomPlatz2.jpg

    I suspect both of them would have major trouble actually riding a bike given the sheer "awesomeness" of their thighs.

    I'm going to assume you're joking, but in case you're not I would remind you of whole bunches of track racers around the world who, according to you, shouldn't be able to ride a bike at all, due to massive thighs, yet somehow, somehow they seem to pull it off.
    Odd thing about it is that their big thighs seem to be what helps them do it. How can this be??? :? :?
    Hi Dennis,

    Theo Bos was a "skinny" track sprinter and not so bad. The muscle helps track sprinters due to the anaerobic nature of the very short events, though there is certainly not a strong correlation between the size of the track sprinter and their performance at elite level for instance.

    I have met both of the two bodybuilders above Dorian Yates and Tom Platz. Tom is a very decent and intelligent man who remembered me from the first time I met him several years before.

    Dorian Yates was the first of the super giants though Markus Ruhl had the upper hand in the musculature department, I stood beside Markus a few years ago and he is the same height as myself but at the time was twice the weight I was, he is a very approachable guy too and makes time for fans. According to a friend of mine who attended Mr Olympia in one of the first years after it moving to Vegas Markus dwarfed Ronnie Coleman who won that year and to think as a young adult he weighed just 60Kg.

    Mr Olympia is taking place this weekend and I think that Phil Heath may just knock big Jay off his top spot. Anyway getting well of topic again...

    Murr X


    I look forward to the Mr. O every year. Just unbelievable competition. I'm gonna go with Jay this year for no other reason than once you win it you seem to sort of get the hang of winning it. Tough to unseat the top guy. Back in my wannabe days I was a Larry Scott fan. Goes to show ya how old I am. I did read, the other day, on Tom Platz's website
    that he "was planning something". Seemed like he was hinting at a comeback, strangely enough. Ya never know.
  • PseudonymPseudonym Posts: 1,032
    dennisn wrote:
    I did read, the other day, on Tom Platz's website
    that he "was planning something". Seemed like he was hinting at a comeback, strangely enough. Ya never know.

    maybe he's planning to win KoM on next year's TdF. Ya never know.....
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