gearing for hills - better to push yourself or not?

neeb

Today I did a 10 mile climb with an average gradient of around 6%, out of necessity using my normal 53/39 & 12-25 gearing. It's the second time I've done it and I swore on the way up that if I ever did it again I'd fit a 12-27 or a compact!

Does having more "comfortable" gearing tend to make you faster or slower however, assuming you are trying for as good a time as possible and that you are (just) able to push the bigger gear? In this case I was able to push the 39 25 while remaining seated most of the time, but I rarely changed out of it and would really have appreciated an extra gear...

On the one hand, lower gearing lets you select the cadence you want and vary cadence more, but does being forced to push a higher gear perhaps spur you on because you have to push the pedals harder?

styxd

You have to push the pedals harder, so it may be quicker. However, easier gears are worth their weight in gold after you've done say 80miles and you've got a 25% to clear to get home.

neeb

You have to push the pedals harder, so it may be quicker.

That was my thought too, but on the other hand if you can pedal more efficiently with a slightly faster cadence, or alternate between a faster and slower cadence to give the muscles a break, that might be faster too.

ut_och_cykla

Its probabaly more about how hard you work than gearing (within limits) . If you have too heavy gears you risk knees and stuff but might develop a bit more strength on the bike which can be used even on the flat. If you have lower gears you'll puff just as much but your knees will be happier and you'll be able to get up stuff after a long ride or during a multi day event.

rick_chasey

Depends on what works for you.

I find that I prefer to spin a little more on the flats then I do uphill. Uphill I like to feel I'm pushing against something.

markos1963

If you feel that you only need to have only an extra gear then obviously fitting a 12/27 is worth it just to see if it gives you what you need. Going compact increases cost and has other issues for the rider like the big jump between the rings.

daddylonglegs

I reckon it all depends on how far you're riding and how much climbing there is. Ideally you need several cassettes and choose different ones for different rides. If you've got a 100 mile sportive or road race through the Lakes you'll probably need a compact or 39-27 lowest (39-28 if you have the more recent Shimano offerings). Not necessarily because you'll be struggling up the first hill you get to, but because on a big ride with loads of big hills, you need to pace yourself so it's crucial you ride well within yourself on the early climbs. The value of this will only make itself known six or seven hours later. If you wreck yourself and your legs on the initial climb or climbs you will lose significant time on the later parts of the ride. On these sorts of rides whether or not someone can tackle a 3-mile 8 or 9% climb on a 39-19 as a one-off is irrelevant. If they're wise on a big ride, the same person will go up it on a 39-23 at least.

On a short ride (say 30 miles - athough I undersatand 'short' means different things to different people), with a couple of hard climbs on it I think there is real value in using gearing that forces you to work. I don't mean by that struggling to get the gear over, but one which allows you to keep a reasonable cadence while out of the saddle. When you get home, feeling like you've done some real work is no bad thing and over a shorter ride any real fatigue effects will only really kick in once the ride is finished and you're able to rest and eat properly.

So the answer to the question is another question: 'how far is the ride?' If it's short, with no more than a couple of climbs, then use the biggest gear you're confident you can turn without blowing up and then using the descents to recover. If the ride is long, then choose gearing that allows you to pace yourself and control your efforts.

This will be the quickest way to get round your chosen route.

daddylonglegs

Just a thought, but of course with a ten speed, it's now just possible to get the best of all worlds in one cassette.

For example a 12-27 will give you a good range of fast gears for fairly flat routes (12,13,14,15,16,17,19). In addition you get a few big sprockets (21,24,27) which should be ok for most British climbs.

neeb

Thanks for the comments!

Another factor of course is the length of the climb (quite apart from the length of the ride). I'm actually in California at the moment although I've done most of my riding in Finland where the hills are non-existent or very short (rolling, with lots of short rises). The ride I did yesterday was Mt. Diablo, which at 11 miles I guess is longer than anything in the UK and completely without parallel in Southern Finland... I'd say I was a good climber and reasonably fit (my two rides up Diablo have been just under and just over the hour by a matter of seconds), but to be honest if I hadn't had the 25 sprocket I doubt I'd have had made it up on a 23. I'm amazed when I hear that some people have done this hill using a 39 - 21, as I know my time is quite good for an amateur (the record times for the course are around 45mins).

So I guess I'm just someone who benefits from spinning a little on long climbs (although on shorter climbs I'm definitely one for getting out of the saddle and powering up in a higher gear). The irony is that much of the time I don't need the 25 sprocket and could get by with the 23. So perhaps I should ditch the 12-25 for a 12-23 and a 12-27 and swap them as appropriate.

jibberjim

neeb wrote:

So I guess I'm just someone who benefits from spinning a little on long climbs (although on shorter climbs I'm definitely one for getting out of the saddle and powering up in a higher gear). The irony is that much of the time I don't need the 25 sprocket and could get by with the 23. So perhaps I should ditch the 12-25 for a 12-23 and a 12-27 and swap them as appropriate.

You will be slower than you could be up any hill with the wrong gearing, although just how much slower and what exactly is the wrong gearing will depend on very individual things.

The only way you'll be faster if you're forced to push a gear you have to grind out at a low cadence is if you're naturally lazy and are not prepared to push yourself without that external motivation. (There's probably a subconcious governor on this too, so it's not just concious motivation)

Your overall efficiency will likely fall away the further from your preferred cadence range gets, so letting it happen will reduce your performance.

Also remember that by letting your cadence go very low you increasingly switch the limiter to one purely of strength, reducing the aerobic energy stress your body is getting - since road cycling is ultimately an almost exclusive aerobic sport you're reducing the training benefit of riding up the hill and are simply working even more on your strength.

unixnerd

I live somewhere very hilly and the last 10 mile time trial I did finished at the top car park on Cairngorm Mountain! I like to have a gear lower than I'll normally need so that if I'm tired at the end of a long run or going into a silly headwind whilst climbing I don't end up pushing too high a gear at a low rpm. I normally remain seated and spin. I find that getting out of the saddle is OK for a while but kills my legs for a good bit afterwards.

I was watching a film about the '73 Giro last night and it's amazing how low a cadence folk like Merckx had when climbing compared to today's pros. I suspect it was at least partly due to the cassettes available then.

neeb

jibberjim wrote:

You will be slower than you could be up any hill with the wrong gearing, although just how much slower and what exactly is the wrong gearing will depend on very individual things.

The only way you'll be faster if you're forced to push a gear you have to grind out at a low cadence is if you're naturally lazy and are not prepared to push yourself without that external motivation. (There's probably a subconcious governor on this too, so it's not just concious motivation)

Your overall efficiency will likely fall away the further from your preferred cadence range gets, so letting it happen will reduce your performance.

Also remember that by letting your cadence go very low you increasingly switch the limiter to one purely of strength, reducing the aerobic energy stress your body is getting - since road cycling is ultimately an almost exclusive aerobic sport you're reducing the training benefit of riding up the hill and are simply working even more on your strength.

That all makes a lot of sense, thanks.

JAGGY

Stick with the big gears pal.

A compact made me weak last year. Now back on 53-39 and strength and speed is back this season. Also had my best crit results. I kept a an 11-28 on but only use the 28 on easy days or when I'm fooked. It's a mental challenge to stay out of 28 which has defo improved my power etc.

I use a 11-23 for crits as the jump between cogs on the 11-28 is too big for getting the power down .

Cheers

RedRyd3R

Daddylonglegs wrote:

I reckon it all depends on how far you're riding and how much climbing there is. Ideally you need several cassettes and choose different ones for different rides. If you've got a 100 mile sportive or road race through the Lakes you'll probably need a compact or 27 lowest (28 if you have the more recent Shimano offerings). Not necessarily because you'll be struggling up the first hill you get to, but because on a big ride with loads of big hills, you need to pace yourself so it's crucial you ride well within yourself on the early climbs. The value of this will only make itself known six or seven hours later. If you wreck yourself and your legs on the initial climb or climbs you will lose significant time on the later parts of the ride. On these sorts of rides whether or not someone can tackle a 3-mile 8 or 9% climb on a 39-19 as a one-off is irrelevant. If they're wise on a big ride, the same person will go up it on a 39-23 at least.

On a short ride (say 30 miles - athough I undersatand 'short' means different things to different people), with a couple of hard climbs on it I think there is real value in using gearing that forces you to work. I don't mean by that struggling to get the gear over, but one which allows you to keep a reasonable cadence while out of the saddle. When you get home, feeling like you've done some real work is no bad thing and over a shorter ride any real fatigue effects will only really kick in once the ride is finished and you're able to rest and eat properly.

So the answer to the question is another question: 'how far is the ride?' If it's short, with no more than a couple of climbs, then use the biggest gear you're confident you can turn without blowing up and then using the descents to recover. If the ride is long, then choose gearing that allows you to pace yourself and control your efforts.

This will be the quickest way to get round your chosen route.

ive got a compact 50-34 with a 11-26 cassette i dont really understand gears but i do like to ride distances. 30-60 miles i live in northamton its not very hilly, my fitness is ok and improving, what was wondering is my cassette suitable flats or hills? my cadence drops down to 70-80 rpm on the biggest climbs i ride. i also like to stand up. what cassette would be best for me to start doing more hilly terrain? or should i stick with what i got to weight for my fitness to improve?

neeb

ive got a compact 50-34 with a 11-26 cassette i dont really understand gears but i do like to ride distances. 30-60 miles i live in northamton its not very hilly, my fitness is ok and improving, what was wondering is my cassette suitable flats or hills? my cadence drops down to 70-80 rpm on the biggest climbs i ride. i also like to stand up. what cassette would be best for me to start doing more hilly terrain? or should i stick with what i got to weight for my fitness to improve?

Impossible to give general advice really as it all depends on individual fitness/weight/preferred cadence etc. Your current gearing should give you a pretty wide range of gears however and should be well suited to hilly terrain as it is.

bompington

Talk of 23s and 21s is a bit scary, out of my league, but fwiw I used to run 53/39 with 11-28, I found that fine for hauling my somewhat flabby butt up anything round here, the biggest & hardest I've done to date being the Bealach.

Late on the evening before the Etape Cal I realised that I needed, fast, to stop kidding myself that my bike was functional, and a new cassette was needed. The closest available was 13-26, and I was more than a little worried when I lined up the next morning with, effectively, one cog missing.

It was fine. Despite being more overweight and less fit than any of the previous years, I managed almost exactly the same time - wind and weather were favourable but not much different. I spent the whole time drilling into my brain the notion that the closer my block was to a pro's, the more I'd be able to ride like one, and approached the hills with the idea that I just had to get up them quickly before I blew up! Not very scientific but it seemed to work.

What does this prove? Not much, maybe, but it gives me a sneaking feeling that really it's all in the mind, not the legs.

BillyMansell

RedRyd3R wrote:

ive got a compact 50-34 with a 11-26 cassette i dont really understand gears but i do like to ride distances. 30-60 miles i live in northamton its not very hilly, my fitness is ok and improving, what was wondering is my cassette suitable flats or hills? my cadence drops down to 70-80 rpm on the biggest climbs i ride. i also like to stand up. what cassette would be best for me to start doing more hilly terrain? or should i stick with what i got to weight for my fitness to improve?

I also live in Northampton and generally ride a compact with 11-25 cassette.

As you'll know, the hills aren't particularly long around here so even on the steep ones getting out the saddle for a bit and pushing hard shouldn't push you into the red zone. Last night I did a pan flat 10 mile TT and the same cassette proves fine as you're only using two or three gears on the big ring.

When I was riding down in Dorset and Cornwall the other week I did change to an 11-28 cassette to give me one lower gear for the longer and steeper climbs that we just don't have the likes of around here and found it manageable (and I'm really not built for climbing).

daddylonglegs

RedRyd3R wrote:

ive got a compact 50-34 with a 11-26 cassette i dont really understand gears but i do like to ride distances. 30-60 miles i live in northamton its not very hilly, my fitness is ok and improving, what was wondering is my cassette suitable flats or hills? my cadence drops down to 70-80 rpm on the biggest climbs i ride. i also like to stand up. what cassette would be best for me to start doing more hilly terrain? or should i stick with what i got to weight for my fitness to improve?

Neeb's right, general advice is tricky, but I'd say if you are normally healthy then that gearing is more than adequate for most hilly terrain in the UK. Generally speaking, a 34-26 (your lowest gear) should be suitable for most UK hills, assuming your health and fitness are ok.

A climbing cadence of 70-80 rpm is fine and suggests you are climbing quite slowly, in the saddle and in a fairly low gear.

If you prefer to climb out of the saddle (usually a technique adopted on shorter hills because, while producing more power, is less efficient), then you will find you will need to push a bigger gear.

The cassette/transmission set-up you have should be low enough for most hilly rides in any part of the UK.

daddylonglegs

Gearing is a lot about a cadence. In recent years higher cadences are becoming more accepted and most pros I see seem comfortable bowling along the flat at around 80-90 rpm.

Mr. Armstrong showed us the way with high climbing cadences of what looked to be around 60-plus rpm (although we are talking Alpine climbs here don't forget).

Back on UK hills, my experience of climbing big and small hills at too low a cadence usually meant I was trying to push too big a gear. This often had more to do with my determination to prove (mostly to myself) that I was stronger than I was than it had to do with training or riding sensibly. More often than not I found that the consequences of repeatedly over-gearing on virtually every hill I came to was sore legs (sometimes for days!), a bad back and near permanent fatigue.

The thing I eventually found when I compared a hilly ride, climbing on lower gears against the same ride climbing on big gears and gritted teeth was that while my average speeds and times were more or less the same, I found I was less wrecked at the end and I recovered far quicker.

Also, don't forget, there's hills and there are HILLS. I think a lot of inexperienced riders are far too willing to change down a gear or more (even dropping chain rings) every time they hit any incline. This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way because the act of 'preparing' for the climb no matter how brief by shifting down inevitably scrubs off speed and momentum so you end up needing the gear you've grabbed. Usually on short 'digs' (30-100 mtrs, up to 8% maybe), particularly if you're approaching it quick enough, it's better to stay in the gear you're in, then, as your speed drops, get out the saddle and power up it. This probably works out as no less efficient if you are already moving at a reasonable pace because the retained momentum alone does much of the climb for you.

RedRyd3R

Daddylonglegs wrote:

Gearing is a lot about a cadence. In recent years higher cadences are becoming more accepted and most pros I see seem comfortable bowling along the flat at around 80-90 rpm.

Mr. Armstrong showed us the way with high climbing cadences of what looked to be around 60-plus rpm (although we are talking Alpine climbs here don't forget).

Back on UK hills, my experience of climbing big and small hills at too low a cadence usually meant I was trying to push too big a gear. This often had more to do with my determination to prove (mostly to myself) that I was stronger than I was than it had to do with training or riding sensibly. More often than not I found that the consequences of repeatedly over-gearing on virtually every hill I came to was sore legs (sometimes for days!) a bad back and near permanent fatigue.

The thing I eventually found when I compared a hilly ride, climbing on lower gears against the same ride climbing on big gears and gritted teeth was that while my average speeds and times were more or less the same, I found I was less wrecked at the end and I recovered far quicker.

Also, don't forget, there's hills and there are HILLS. I think a lot of inexperienced riders are far too willing to change down a gear or more (even dropping chain rings) every time they hit any incline. This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way because the act of 'preparing' for the climb no matter how brief by shifting down inevitably scrubs off speed and momentum. Usually on short 'digs' (50-100 mtrs, up to 8% maybe), particularly if you're approaching it quick enough, it's better to stay in the gear you're in, then, as your speed drops, get out the saddle and power up it. This probably works out as no less efficient if you are already moving at a reasonable pace because the retained momentum alone does much of the climb for you.

i would say when i started cycling last year i could barely cycle up any inclign, the 12 mile round commute put me to my bed early most nights.
i would say now i average 200-300 miles amonth so i wouldnt say i was fit, maybe just under average. but i am getting stronger.
the lowest gear on my compact can "feel" alittle tuff somtimes after 35 miles but i am sure i will adjust overtime.

thanks for your helpful advice, its nice that you guys on the forum dont judge people for there lack of knowledge :-)

neeb

Daddylonglegs wrote:

Usually on short 'digs' (30-100 mtrs, up to 8% maybe), particularly if you're approaching it quick enough, it's better to stay in the gear you're in, then, as your speed drops, get out the saddle and power up it.

Actually, in that situation I'd often change up a gear - as long as I think I can get most of the way up on anaerobic effort. It's great training too. The real trick is having enough in reserve to be able to do that sort of thing for limited periods during long climbs, as really good climbers do when they attack. Again, having the gears helps - if you know you can whack it into a low enough gear to be able to spin for 30s after an intense anaerobic effort it gives you more confidence to push your limits for brief periods.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I realise that not being limited by your gearing pretty much always has to be good..