2x20 intervals and HIT training

kieranb

Hi, recently read some stuff about HIT (high Intensity Training) on cyclingtips blog
(http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/08/the-intensity-trap/ and in some other places as well (e.g. http://aabcracing.com/latest/hit-high-intensity-riding-in-the-offseason.html) from reading it, it seems to me that an effort you can hold for 20min is too long to be considered HIT? and that it would fall in zone 2 training (i.e. what is referred to as No Man's Land in some articles). Previously I used to do these 2X20min at around 85% max HR (no power meter). Was I wasting my time nd effort? Would I be better off doing shorter harder intervals with lots of zone 1 stuff as well?

Thanks.

amaferanga

2x20 @ around FTP are certainly not a waste of time! If you want to race and be around at the end of the race then improving your FTP is one of the best things to do and doing 2x20 is as I understand it one of the best ways to do that. I doubt that 2x20 @ 85% of your max HR would be 'zone 2' or 'No Man's Land' by anyone's definition.

How are zone 1 and zone 2 defined anyway?

kieranb

from

For simplicities sake, we can divide training into three distinct zones:

A low lactate zone (low intensity endurance training – where very little lactate is produced [lactate <2 mmol/L]);
A lactate accommodation zone (no man’s land - significant lactate is produced but is rapidly removed [lactate 2-4 mmol/L]);
A lactate accumulation zone (high intensity interval training - lactate is produced more quickly than it can be removed [lactate >4mmol/L]).

Zone 1 can be considered your ridiculously easy zone... heart rate is at the lower end of the spectrum (60-75% of HRmax). At the other end of the scale, zone 3 is the zone that you should be undertaking your high intensity intervals in... you are on your limit and within seconds, a little voice in your head is begging for mercy. Zone 2, in the middle, is that point at which you are at or near your anaerobic threshold... you have a bit of a burn in the legs and you know if you push it any harder, it is going to be game over. But as long as you stay steady at your anaerobic threshold level, you can sit there for extended periods of time. A workout at this level feels very rewarding for those who enjoy hammering themselves for 2-3 hours at a time. These people often (mistakenly) perceive this intensity to be ‘race pace’.

this was from http://thatpaleoguy.blogspot.com/2011/04/polarised-training-intensities-is.html a link I followed from cyclingtips.

a_n_t

If you keep your HR at a certain % over a 20 min session your power will be dropping off. Not ideal. Better to use speed or cadence on the turbo.

kieranb

Hi yep, I monitor all 3 when on the turbo, so I try to account for cardiac drift by keeping speed constant and try to maintain 90-100 rpm, I start off lower than 85% max HR, spend most of the time around it and then end higher than 85% max HR. I also use a huge floor fan to keep cool.

jimbo777

I've been training with power this year and 2x20's at threshold (FTP) are a key session. They've really helped this year.
I use a turbo in winter but you can do this session on the road in 1hr 20mins and heat isn't an issue.

BeaconRuth

kieranb wrote:

............... by keeping speed constant and try to maintain 90-100 rpm...............

Bear in mind that if your cadence is drifting about within a window as wide as 90-100rpm then your power will be a very very long way from constant. To maintain anything like an even power output you need to be holding the cadence constant to +/-0.5rpm. I used to spend several weeks progressing from doing 2x20mins at (say) 91rpm to 92rpm and the power increase in that time could have been as much as 5% - so very significant.

Once you're using a biggish gear on a high resistance on the turbo, your power output is extremely sensitive to very small changes in cadence.

Ruth

kieranb

Thanks Ruth, I would agree, the large window was due to moments of losing focus and the cadence dropping then increasing it a bit to make up for the drop, which is harder than keeping it constant.

amaferanga

a_n_t wrote:

If you keep your HR at a certain % over a 20 min session your power will be dropping off. Not ideal. Better to use speed or cadence on the turbo.

Not on my turbo (Elite fluid elastogel) since the resistance drops off as the unit heats up. Unfortunately it takes about an hour to become anything like stable.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Zone 2, in the middle, is that point at which you are at or near your anaerobic threshold... you have a bit of a burn in the legs and you know if you push it any harder, it is going to be game over. But as long as you stay steady at your anaerobic threshold level, you can sit there for extended periods of time. A workout at this level feels very rewarding for those who enjoy hammering themselves for 2-3 hours at a time. These people often (mistakenly) perceive this intensity to be ‘race pace’.

This is exactly the effort level at which most road races are conducted.

"No-man's land" is a training myth.

Eyorerox

I would like to improve my climbing ability and thought the 2X20 sessions sounded like the right way to go, I measured my MAP but not sure how it relates to FTP, if I have it right FTP is about 75% of MAP
How hard should the 2X20 sessions be done?
thanks for any help

Alex_Simmons/RST

Eyorerox wrote:

I would like to improve my climbing ability and thought the 2X20 sessions sounded like the right way to go, I measured my MAP but not sure how it relates to FTP, if I have it right FTP is about 75% of MAP
How hard should the 2X20 sessions be done?
thanks for any help

Relationship of FTP to MAP can vary a little, and is different for each person. Typically FTP is between 72% - 77% of MAP but some fall outside of that range (and the reasons may be physiological, and/or to do with the testing methods).

If doing threshold development intervals (~10-30 minutes), then between 65%-75% of MAP is about the right area to start with, and then use your actual interval performance to guide you from then on.

Eyorerox

Thanks
How do you improve FTP if you only train at less than FTP?
or have i missed something

Bronzie

Eyorerox wrote:

How do you improve FTP if you only train at less than FTP?
or have i missed something

Who said that all your training should be at/below threshold?

No harm in mixing in some higher intensity intervals even if the current focus on your training is sub-threshold.

However, training around the "sweetspot" (c. 90% FTP) can be very productive (in terms of improving FTP) as it's a good trade-off between intensity and repeatability (ability to recover in time for another session the next day). But I wouldn't think it a good idea to do ALL your training at this intensity.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Eyorerox wrote:

Thanks
How do you improve FTP if you only train at less than FTP?
or have i missed something

The physiological adaptations that improve power at threshold are induced by riding at most levels above recovery pace. There is no "switch" that only turns on adaptations simply because you are riding a a particular power.

Indeed one can make tremendous gains with lots of riding below threshold.

I have seen my own threshold go up 10-15% before even doing any specific threshold or supra threshold training.