Question: Are we witnessing or on the brink of 'revolution'

2

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    notsoblue wrote:
    This isn't a revolution, but the violent consequence of the disenfranchisement of a generation. I think this point from Kenan Malik says it quite well:
    [url=http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/five-quick-points-about-the-riots/]Kenan Malik[/url] wrote:
    The polarisation between the claim that ‘the riots are a response to unemployment and wasted lives’ and the insistence ‘the violence constitutes mere criminality’ makes little sense. There is clearly more to the riots than simple random hooliganism. But that does not mean that the riots, as many have claimed, are protests against disenfranchisement, social exclusion and wasted lives. In fact, it’s precisely because of disenfranchisement, social exclusion and wasted lives that these are not ‘protests’ in any meaningful sense, but a mixture of incoherent rage, gang thuggery and teenage mayhem. Disengaged not just from the political process (largely because politicians, especially those on the left, have disengaged from them), there is a generation (in fact more than a generation) with no focus for their anger and resentment, no sense that they can change society and no reason to feel responsible for the consequences of their actions. That is very different from suggesting that the riots were caused by, a response to, or a protest against, unemployment, austerity and the cuts.

    Well put.
    _
  • clarkey cat
    clarkey cat Posts: 3,641
    nice piece from Kenan Malik
    Dolan Mythos
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    ^^^^ +1 ^^^^
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    davmaggs wrote:
    mudcow007 wrote:
    Question....

    how far would you go to protect your house/ car from rioters?

    if you were woken up in the morning to the sound of rioters in your street, coming closer an closer to your house, you try the police but they cant respond as they are too busy, what would you do?

    You can combine the British love of tea with home defence and have lots of boiling water to hand. Not many people would like to receive that on their heads. If you are a softy then go fair trade on them.

    Cars can't be defended and probably not worth being out in the open for.

    + 1 million. I'm tempted to park mine in Croydon this evening, I need a new one and the insurance money would come in handy...

    Good quote from Malik above, the connection between social disenfranchisement and the current violence is more subtle than "we don't like the cuts so we're kicking off" but at the same time, there is a wider issue than just saying these kids are bad apples. In the immediate future though, they need a damn good kicking into shape starting as soon as possible to stop things escalating further.
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  • Greg T
    Greg T Posts: 3,266
    The looting is going to stop - eventually - the police response will ramp up until it's squashed - it won't go on.

    The revolution won't be a great crash of society - the glass will be replaced the businesses will re-open. The revolution will be a hardening of attitudes towards civil disobiedience and an expectation of rapid, overwhelming and robust Policing of public order situations.
    Fixed gear for wet weather / hairy roadie for posing in the sun.

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  • gtvlusso
    gtvlusso Posts: 5,112
    With the markets tumbling and civil unrest in more than one country - Is this going to get bigger and badder?
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    notsoblue wrote:
    This isn't a revolution, but the violent consequence of the disenfranchisement of a generation. I think this point from Kenan Malik says it quite well:
    [url=http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/five-quick-points-about-the-riots/]Kenan Malik[/url] wrote:
    The polarisation between the claim that ‘the riots are a response to unemployment and wasted lives’ and the insistence ‘the violence constitutes mere criminality’ makes little sense. There is clearly more to the riots than simple random hooliganism. But that does not mean that the riots, as many have claimed, are protests against disenfranchisement, social exclusion and wasted lives. In fact, it’s precisely because of disenfranchisement, social exclusion and wasted lives that these are not ‘protests’ in any meaningful sense, but a mixture of incoherent rage, gang thuggery and teenage mayhem. Disengaged not just from the political process (largely because politicians, especially those on the left, have disengaged from them), there is a generation (in fact more than a generation) with no focus for their anger and resentment, no sense that they can change society and no reason to feel responsible for the consequences of their actions. That is very different from suggesting that the riots were caused by, a response to, or a protest against, unemployment, austerity and the cuts.

    Alternatively they are just nasty, stupid little scroats.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • clarkey cat
    clarkey cat Posts: 3,641
    Alternatively they are just nasty, stupid little scroats.

    That much is obvious.
    Dolan Mythos
  • Keith1983
    Keith1983 Posts: 575
    Conscription anyone?
  • Confusedboy
    Confusedboy Posts: 287
    Of course it isn't a revolution; the Brtitish do not have the stomach for such a thing*, and the people rioting (as I said yesterday, looting and looters are a different animal/animals) have no cohesive political aim to replace the current regime with, unlike for example the 'Arab spring' movements in North Africa and the Middle East. Mr Malik quoted above has it about right.


    *We tried getting rid of the monarchy once, and a corrupt, dissolute, arrogant and expensive monarchy it was, too, but what replaced it was so miserable that we actually asked the monarchs to come back!!!!! Not really a revolutionary culture, are we?
  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,064
    even it if was which is isnt it will stop once the rain comes #FACT or they reach the countryside. We country folk have guns, lots & lots of guns :P
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  • zenistar
    zenistar Posts: 75
    edited August 2011
    mudcow007 wrote:
    Question....

    how far would you go to protect your house/ car from rioters?

    if you were woken up in the morning to the sound of rioters in your street, coming closer an closer to your house, you try the police but they cant respond as they are too busy, what would you do?

    Guns would be out of the safe and loaded, they can do what ever the hell they like to the outside of the house, cars etc (all that can be replaced) but as soon as they come into the house and that puts my family in danger - completely different kettle of fish.
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  • AidanR
    AidanR Posts: 1,142
    Keith1983 wrote:
    Conscription anyone?

    You want to train them?! :wink:
    Bike lover and part-time cyclist.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Asprilla wrote:
    bails87 wrote:
    nicklouse
    And then you hear police officers talking to the media saying "we can't do anything, there just aren't enough police available".

    I'm inclined to believe the police are playing a bit of 'i told you so' with their deployments. 32,000 Met police plus reserves available from Surrey, Susses, Essex, Kent, Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, Berkshire, Buckinghamshire and anywhere else you like and we can still only manage to put 6,000 police on the streets last night?

    Urgent response, I think not.

    Absolutely. I get the sense that the police are playing politics a bit here. I can't blame them, everyone comes down on them like a tonne of bricks when they deploy harder tactics like kettling, so they take the softly softly route and then everyone comes down on them again to say they weren't hard enough! We can't have it both ways! And as per the Guardian article on the 1st page of this thread, Theresa May was warned that cutting police number may affect their ability to maintain order and here we have it... they want to illustrate their point....
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  • Jay dubbleU
    Jay dubbleU Posts: 3,159
    itboffin wrote:
    even it if was which is isnt it will stop once the rain comes #FACT or they reach the countryside. We country folk have guns, lots & lots of guns :P

    And combine harvesters - harvester vs angry mob - I know which my money would be on
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Asprilla wrote:
    kieranb wrote:
    is it to do with mass youth unemployment? Nothing to lose and no future, no connection to wider society. If so things in the future will probably get worse before they get better thanks to the advance of automation (robotics, smart systems), see

    http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/20555/

    http://jakeg.co.uk/essays/basicincome

    Nope, it's definitely kids steeling stuff because they've realise no-one will stop them.

    Absolutely. It's just mindless criminality. Lets not take the blame away from the culprits. These are members of society smashing society up. If you're "disenfrachised" get off your ass and do something positive about it!
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  • Specialized Needs
    Specialized Needs Posts: 802
    BigMat wrote:
    + 1 million. I'm tempted to park mine in Croydon this evening, I need a new one and the insurance money would come in handy...
    Is it covered for riot/civil unrest?
  • The Running Man
    The Running Man Posts: 574
    Apologies for being serious but all this does have the rather familiar stink of a decaying society ....
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  • greg66_tri_v2.0
    greg66_tri_v2.0 Posts: 7,172
    AidanR wrote:
    Keith1983 wrote:
    Conscription anyone?

    You want to train them?! :wink:

    Ha! Sort of though. A bit of discipline, respect for authority, and connection between work and reward wouldn't go amiss

    Things that I guess have been missing in our school system over the last few years. And possibly at home, too.
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  • bearfraser
    bearfraser Posts: 435
    Revolution , isnt that the home brand of "Edinburgh Bike Coop" the tossers are just out to ROB!!!!!!!
  • Initialised
    Initialised Posts: 3,047
    The Running Man wrote:
    Apologies for being serious but all this does have the rather familiar stink of a decaying society ....
    That tends to follow the appointment of a Tory PM.
    I used to just ride my bike to work but now I find myself going out looking for bigger and bigger hills.
  • Initialised
    Initialised Posts: 3,047
    bearfraser wrote:
    Revolution , isnt that the home brand of "Edinburgh Bike Coop" the tossers are just out to ROB!!!!!!!
    You talking about the mob or EBC?
    I used to just ride my bike to work but now I find myself going out looking for bigger and bigger hills.
  • greg66_tri_v2.0
    greg66_tri_v2.0 Posts: 7,172
    Initialised wrote:
    The Running Man wrote:
    Apologies for being serious but all this does have the rather familiar stink of a decaying society ....
    That tends to follow the appointment of a Tory PM.

    Correlation or causation? The newly appointed Tory PM has to reap the crop sewn by his predecessor.
    Swim. Bike. Run. Yeah. That's what I used to do.

    Bike 1
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  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    Greg66 wrote:
    Initialised wrote:
    The Running Man wrote:
    Apologies for being serious but all this does have the rather familiar stink of a decaying society ....
    That tends to follow the appointment of a Tory PM.

    Correlation or causation? The newly appointed Tory PM has to reap the crop sewn by his predecessor.

    Is that the first "This is Labour's mess" of the riots?
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • Albirdave
    Albirdave Posts: 21
    Not enough police to cope!!!!!

    What about the army? You still got one over there??

    I'm sure they would love the gun practise :wink:
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    Albirdave wrote:
    Not enough police to cope!!!!!

    What about the army? You still got one over there??

    I'm sure they would love the gun practise :wink:

    It's thinly stretched as it is, what with *NON PARTISAN* :wink: goverment cuts.

    Also, they're not riot trained.
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • clarkey cat
    clarkey cat Posts: 3,641
    and they're all in the middle east
    Dolan Mythos
  • kieranb
    kieranb Posts: 1,674
    Headhuunter wrote:
    Asprilla wrote:
    kieranb wrote:
    is it to do with mass youth unemployment? Nothing to lose and no future, no connection to wider society. If so things in the future will probably get worse before they get better thanks to the advance of automation (robotics, smart systems), see

    http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/20555/

    http://jakeg.co.uk/essays/basicincome

    Nope, it's definitely kids steeling stuff because they've realise no-one will stop them.

    Absolutely. It's just mindless criminality. Lets not take the blame away from the culprits. These are members of society smashing society up. If you're "disenfrachised" get off your ass and do something positive about it!

    Well, my beliefis that a safe civil free society relies on people having a positive bond with that society to keep it safe and running smoothly, not heavy handed policing (look at the middle east for heavy handed policing). Getting off your ass and doing something is not easy when you have no resources/skills to call on, simple competition means not everyone can be a winner, maybe they could get a bank loan to start a business!
  • greg66_tri_v2.0
    greg66_tri_v2.0 Posts: 7,172
    bails87 wrote:
    Greg66 wrote:
    Initialised wrote:
    The Running Man wrote:
    Apologies for being serious but all this does have the rather familiar stink of a decaying society ....
    That tends to follow the appointment of a Tory PM.

    Correlation or causation? The newly appointed Tory PM has to reap the crop sewn by his predecessor.

    Is that the first "This is Labour's mess" of the riots?

    I refuse to believe that no one else has thought it!
    Swim. Bike. Run. Yeah. That's what I used to do.

    Bike 1
    Bike 2-A
  • clarkey cat
    clarkey cat Posts: 3,641
    If you're "disenfrachised" get off your ass and do something positive about it!

    They are. Might not be yours or my definition of 'positive' but in a world of grim prospects smashing up some windows and nicking a telly is probably quite a rush.
    Dolan Mythos

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