Shooting

kelsen

Ok, I know we've had the whole "what is a sport/not a sport" debate, but I have to ask, given it is an olympic event, why is shooting more a sport than say darts or even just playing video games?!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/shooting/14373963.stm

Dog Breath

Similarly, when did playing cards become a sport. There are many sports channels that devote their air time to this particular 'sport'

MarcBC

I do not see how we can have this debate whilst synchronised drowning is allowed in the Olympics.

SimonAH

Well, it is a whole-body discipline. But I think mainly because it has martial roots, like archery, javelin, equestrian events etc.

prawny

I think you need to be able to kill something with these type of events. You'd struggle to kill anything with a dart, a vole perhaps? But thats not Olympic enough.

Don't know what you could kill synchronised swimming, maybe the crowd, of boredom.

rolf_f

prawny wrote:

I think you need to be able to kill something with these type of events. You'd struggle to kill anything with a dart, a vole perhaps?

Exactly. Mind you, darts fails partly because you only get 3 darts. If you had a hundred per turn then it might pass the death test.

gtvlusso

I would not say it is a sport, but it certainly is skill.

For .22 LR prone shooting you need to be able to hit a target dead centre at 50 yards with no telescopic sight - believe me, it is very difficult. I tend to shoot indoor prone at 25m and I am yet to score well after a number of years - using a .22 Walther GX-1 Long Rifle. The rifles themselves are very heavy and very basic single shot bolt action - so, to reload you have to move the rifle, i.e. move position - this seriously affects accuracy as does heart rate and breathing.

For trap and skeet, there is a percentage of the time where you cannot see the clay that has been released as you have to overtake it with the gun barrel - admittedly, you are using a shotgun/scattergun making hitting anything easier - but the speed of the clays is quite incredible.

It is not very exciting, but more prefereable to golf.....

First.Aspect

Is juggling a sport? Very skillful and you have to have very strong forearms.

Sewinman

What was the conclusion of the sporting debate then?

Shooting - takes skill, competitive ...= sport.

I do a lot of fishing. I would consider it an art rather than a sport. However, some anglers do participate in competitions with one another in organised events. The aim is to beat the opponent, so I would class that arm of angling as sport.

mossychops

Does it have to be a sport to be in the Olympic Games?

Didn't shooting also involve Skiiing or some sort of running between targets and times events? I don't know - I am basing this on my knowledge of Commodore 64 versions of Summer Games and Winter Games.

They rocked!

gtvlusso

Sewinman wrote:

What was the conclusion of the sporting debate then?

Shooting - takes skill, competitive ...= sport.

I do a lot of fishing. I would consider it an art rather than a sport. However, some anglers do participate in competitions with one another in organised events. The aim is to beat the opponent, so I would class that arm of angling as sport.

I think this is a tricky one!

In the old Olympic Games, Shotgun shooting and 303 (Enfield No 4 rifle) shooting was one of the events - but we are harkling back to the times of world war and national service, where practically everyone was taught to shoot. I guess as the games have developed the sport has had to develop to - more accuracy, smaller ammunition. I am surprised in a way that shooting is still held as an event, it is highly competitive in the UK (very surprsingly, considering gun laws) - There are many events for many different calibres and types of rifle, shotgun and carbine. Shooting is on it's last legs though - I think the old guard of servicemen that started the shooting clubs are nearly all gone, they are generally only fed by ex military or serving military and there have been a few incidents of looneys being given Firearms certificates......

I guess it is a sport, same way as throwing a javelin is - the aim, in the end was the same - to kill or mame something. Just allot less fitness required with a gun!

sketchley

Sewinman wrote:

What was the conclusion of the sporting debate then?

Shooting - takes skill, competitive ...= sport.
I do a lot of fishing. I would consider it an art rather than a sport. However, some anglers do participate in competitions with one another in organised events. The aim is to beat the opponent, so I would class that arm of angling as sport.

Chess - takes skill, competitive.... = sport?

Zachariah

Ah, Epyx's Winter Games? I remember the biathlon event well - get that joystick rhythm going!

Sewinman

Sketchley wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

What was the conclusion of the sporting debate then?

Shooting - takes skill, competitive ...= sport.
I do a lot of fishing. I would consider it an art rather than a sport. However, some anglers do participate in competitions with one another in organised events. The aim is to beat the opponent, so I would class that arm of angling as sport.

Chess - takes skill, competitive.... = sport?

Sorry, I meant some form of form of physical skill. In shooting's case that would be hand to eye coordination, good eye sight and keeping very still/calm.

I would probably not say chess involves 'skill', more mental ability.

Aerozine50

Er Yes shooting is a sport, as it requires a lot of patience and more importantly "repeatability", however like snooker and darts the actual level of physical exertion is minimal.

It will however put food on your table, as I like going "Bunny Mugging" with my Precharged air rifle on my permission land. That like fishing is an art, because you need fieldcraft to outwit the animal.

Similarly you could put the olympic sports of Gymnastics and Diving in the same category, as they are sports depending upon repeatability, also because these things are Judged as well, as opposed to measured by say speed to accuracy in the case of shooting, I can see where your definition of a "sport" could question this one. However the people who take part in these are real athletes who spend masses of time getting their bodies in perfect condition.
Unlike Darts which used to be "Drink lots of beer smoke lots of fags and occassionally throw dart at wall"

@Mossychops . Yes Biathlon is A sport as it requires excellent cardio and the ability to shoot under pressure. For every miss there is a penalty circuit to be completed. In the states they also used to do MTB Biathlon too, but I'm not sure the UK public would allow us to run such events here, what with all the latest fanaticism and the happenings in Norway. Too many doo gooding townies.

Redhog14

I am a purist when it comes to the Olympics - I belive it should not include any activity which can be ranked on "artisitic" grounds - figure skating, synchronised swimming, BMX, some of the gymnastics (tbh most of the gymnastics) - this is because the Olympics shoud be about Faster, Higher, Further[/i].

If a win is decided upon by judges (and not referees) it should not be in the Olympics - Shooting is a points game decided purely by the individuals skill so should be included, as should golf - I just won't watch it.

BTW Boxing should be about knock outs and not points - barbaric yes, exciting definently!

sketchley

Sewinman wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

What was the conclusion of the sporting debate then?

Shooting - takes skill, competitive ...= sport.
I do a lot of fishing. I would consider it an art rather than a sport. However, some anglers do participate in competitions with one another in organised events. The aim is to beat the opponent, so I would class that arm of angling as sport.

Chess - takes skill, competitive.... = sport?

Sorry, I meant some form of form of physical skill. In shooting's case that would be hand to eye coordination, good eye sight and keeping very still/calm.

I would probably not say chess involves 'skill', more mental ability.

Ok fine with that. Howabout Darts takes skill, competitive ...= sport.

Sewinman

Darts is much much harder than many other sports....

Sewinman

Sketchley wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

What was the conclusion of the sporting debate then?

Shooting - takes skill, competitive ...= sport.
I do a lot of fishing. I would consider it an art rather than a sport. However, some anglers do participate in competitions with one another in organised events. The aim is to beat the opponent, so I would class that arm of angling as sport.

Chess - takes skill, competitive.... = sport?

Sorry, I meant some form of form of physical skill. In shooting's case that would be hand to eye coordination, good eye sight and keeping very still/calm.

I would probably not say chess involves 'skill', more mental ability.

Ok fine with that. Howabout Darts takes skill, competitive ...= sport.

Yeah, I would definitely class Darts as a sport. That fact that you don't have to be an athlete does not make it less of a sport...its f'ing tricky!

First.Aspect

Sewinman wrote:

Darts is much much harder than many other sports....

I was with you until this point. But is it really harder than juggling 7 meat cleavers blindfold?

Sewinman

First Aspect wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

Darts is much much harder than many other sports....

I was with you until this point. But is it really harder than juggling 7 meat cleavers blindfold?

Is juggling meat cleavers a sport?

I have tried darts many times, it is impossible...my darts land in an utterly random pattern, often in the wall rather than board. The idea that a fat man can score 501 in a 9 dart finish astonishes me as much as many other sporting endeavours. In contrast - Badminton, piece of p.

prawny

Redhog14 wrote:

I am a purist when it comes to the Olympics - I belive it should not include any activity which can be ranked on "artisitic" grounds - figure skating, synchronised swimming, BMX, some of the gymnastics (tbh most of the gymnastics) - this is because the Olympics shoud be about Faster, Higher, Further[/i].

If a win is decided upon by judges (and not referees) it should not be in the Olympics - Shooting is a points game decided purely by the individuals skill so should be included, as should golf - I just won't watch it.

BTW Boxing should be about knock outs and not points - barbaric yes, exciting definently!

The BMX racing in the Olympics is just the flat out racing kind - no tricks.

DonDaddyD

Fishing isn't a sport. While it requires strength and skill the outcome is dependent on a variable outside the fisherman's control - i.e. the fish taking the bait and the size of said fish.

I would say that darts is a sport - though not a hugely physical demanding one - I'd place it alongside archery and the like.

Sport's need to be competitive which darts certainly is and juggling isn't. You could, arguably, turn juggling into a sport by making it competitive and an overall measurable goal - such as juggling around a circuit in a certain time limit - but it isn't and so it isn't a sport.

I would say sports need to be competitive, require skill and some form of physical exertion and physical excellence with the outcome dependent on the skill of the participant and not that of their surroundings or environment. This is why I would say Chess isn't a sport.

Sewinman

DonDaddyD wrote:

Fishing isn't a sport. While it requires strength and skill the outcome is dependent on a variable outside the fisherman's control - i.e. the fish taking the bait and the size of said fish.

I would say that darts is a sport - though not a hugely physical demanding one - I'd place it alongside archery and the like.

Sport's need to be competitive which darts certainly is and juggling isn't. You could, arguably, turn juggling into a sport by making it competitive and an overall measurable goal - such as juggling around a circuit in a certain time limit - but it isn't and so it isn't a sport.

I would say sports need to be competitive, require skill and some form of physical exertion and physical excellence with the outcome dependent on the skill of the participant and not that of their surroundings or environment. This is why I would say Chess isn't a sport.

Re - a variable outside the participant's control = not a sport. You could say the same for many other sports - what about the effects of wind, or rain or - the other participants. Cycling - punctures - a variable outside the cyclists control = not a sport.

I agree with the rest of it.

First.Aspect

Sewinman wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

Darts is much much harder than many other sports....

I was with you until this point. But is it really harder than juggling 7 meat cleavers blindfold?

Is juggling meat cleavers a sport?

I have tried darts many times, it is impossible...my darts land in an utterly random pattern, often in the wall rather than board. The idea that a fat man can score 501 in a 9 dart finish astonishes me as much as many other sporting endeavours. In contrast - Badminton, piece of p.

Its not classed as a sport, but why not? And how do you distinguish it from synch swimming, gymnastics, freestyle skiing and the like? There's no empirical measures for those activities, just the opinions of judges.

How is it that diving is a sport but walking a high wire, trampoline or unicycling is not?

How do you distinguish between darts and tiddlywinks?

At the highest level, you could argue that all competitive activities become difficult. Darts isn't any more difficult than golf and I certainly don't think its more difficult than juggling fire sticks or meat cleavers. At least I've never seen any slightly drunk fat men do meat cleaver juggling at the highest level.

Playing the piano is dashed tricky, it requires physical coordination and skill.
By your definition, is that a sport? What about the drums? You have to be quite fit to do that as well.

I know I'm being a little obtuse, but its pretty clear to me that the distinction currently made between sports and other activities is far more by convention than definition.

Sewinman

First Aspect wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

Darts is much much harder than many other sports....

I was with you until this point. But is it really harder than juggling 7 meat cleavers blindfold?

Is juggling meat cleavers a sport?

I have tried darts many times, it is impossible...my darts land in an utterly random pattern, often in the wall rather than board. The idea that a fat man can score 501 in a 9 dart finish astonishes me as much as many other sporting endeavours. In contrast - Badminton, piece of p.

Its not classed as a sport, but why not? And how do you distinguish it from synch swimming, gymnastics, freestyle skiing and the like? There's no empirical measures for those activities, just the opinions of judges.

How is it that diving is a sport but walking a high wire, trampoline or unicycling is not?

How do you distinguish between darts and tiddlywinks?

At the highest level, you could argue that all competitive activities become difficult. Darts isn't any more difficult than golf and I certainly don't think its more difficult than juggling fire sticks or meat cleavers. At least I've never seen any slightly drunk fat men do meat cleaver juggling at the highest level.

Playing the piano is dashed tricky, it requires physical coordination and skill.
By your definition, is that a sport? What about the drums? You have to be quite fit to do that as well.

I know I'm being a little obtuse, but its pretty clear to me that the distinction currently made between sports and other activities is far more by convention than definition.

You are studiously ignoring that one of the two key parts of my definition was 'competitive'. If any of the random activities you have listed were done at a competitive level then they would become sport in my opinion (apart from music - I don't think that takes physical skill, more musical ability, unless it was endurance piano playing or something).

Golf is much easier than darts.

garryc

It's easy,

To qualify as a sport it has to meet the following criteria:

1. Involve some sort of physical activity.
2. Have a scoring system not based on someones elses opinion.

Easy

And by physical activity I don't mean standing in a pub chucking darts.

So

Javelin? Yes
Darts? No

100m butterfly? Yes
Syncronised Swimming? No

100m Hurdles? Yes
Doing a pretty dance on a gym mat? No

You get the picture

MichaelW

I think the main reason for Olympic shooting these days is tradition, its always been an Olympic sport. Its much harder to join the bandwagon these days and once you are on, there is a chance your sport will be voted off in favour of some other minority pursuit.
What are the demonstration sports for 2012?

I can see a place for competative Olympic fishing but catching what? My favourite catch is crabs using some bait and a string.

Aerozine50

Well given the amount that we see on the highways and byways, maybe the demonstation sport for London 2012 should be...............


FLY TIPPING!!!

We are bound to win this contest!!!

Every nation gets the following:

An L reg clapped out transit high cube in regulation white with "I wish my missus was this dirty" etched into the fading paintwork.
1.5 Tons of assorted household and building waste.
1 internationally vetted judge to go along with the van to judge the placement, risk factor and the most important thing, how much its going to cost to clean it up. Points are scored based around these factors. Getting caught by the authorities of course incurs fines and deportation.

He/She who dumps the waste quickest and in the most imaginative places wins.

Sewinman

garryc wrote:

It's easy,

To qualify as a sport it has to meet the following criteria:

1. Involve some sort of physical activity.
2. Have a scoring system not based on someones elses opinion.

Easy

And by physical activity I don't mean standing in a pub chucking darts.

So

Javelin? Yes
Darts? No

100m butterfly? Yes
Syncronised Swimming? No

100m Hurdles? Yes
Doing a pretty dance on a gym mat? No

You get the picture

Why is darts not a physical activity?

DonDaddyD

Sewinman wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Fishing isn't a sport. While it requires strength and skill the outcome is dependent on a variable outside the fisherman's control - i.e. the fish taking the bait and the size of said fish.

I would say that darts is a sport - though not a hugely physical demanding one - I'd place it alongside archery and the like.

Sport's need to be competitive which darts certainly is and juggling isn't. You could, arguably, turn juggling into a sport by making it competitive and an overall measurable goal - such as juggling around a circuit in a certain time limit - but it isn't and so it isn't a sport.

I would say sports need to be competitive, require skill and some form of physical exertion and physical excellence with the outcome dependent on the skill of the participant and not that of their surroundings or environment. This is why I would say Chess isn't a sport.

Re - a variable outside the participant's control = not a sport. You could say the same for many other sports - what about the effects of wind, or rain or - the other participants. Cycling - punctures - a variable outside the cyclists control = not a sport.

I agree with the rest of it.

When there is too strong a tailwind 100m sprinters can still race - comparable times to those running alongside them - but any World record breaking time are not recognised. That's an example of variables outside of participants control...

I'm not versed on the rules of Time trialling and whether they factor head or tailwinds in times world records