Post ride crash

mattgardiner

Hiya,

I'm looking for some advice to improve my post ride routine. I'm getting out on the bike six days a week now and my average rides are in excess of an hour in the week and then a couple of hours or more at the weekend.

Post ride my body seems to suffer a complete crash and I'm wondering how to stop this. My pre-long ride prep is pretty good I think and I'm now concentrating on taking on extra energy whilst riding which I had thought was the problem previously.

Todays example: 3:50 ride taking on a couple of litres of 50:50 diluted lucozade sport and half a pack of jelly babies with an average heart rate of 135. Post ride I've had an energy bar, a couple of litres of orange squash, a couple of cheese toasties and some digestive biscuits. About an hour later I started feeling absolutely dreadful and can't do anything until having 20-30 minutes sleep.

My assumption is that this shouldn't be happening - the idea of travelling to ride elsewhere and needing to drive back is a bit scary. So two questions really - is it normal and if not what works for other people to avoid the crash?

Cheers

Matt

AidanR

Ditching the junk food and eating a proper meal as soon as you can after your ride would be the first thing I'd try. Exercise shouldn't be an excuse to load up on sugar and other low-quality carbs.

mattgardiner

Reading my post back I think that might well have been my answer as well. Funny how you can miss things that should be pretty bloody obvious. I'll give that a crack.

Thinking about the past couple of weeks I think this might well explain things.

I don't eat properly when I'm back from a ride in the evenings because I don't really feel like a full meal or tell myself that there's not enough time and at the weekend I tell myself that it should be 'treat' time.

This is going to work brilliantly!!!

Zziplex

If you don't feel like eating, have 2 scoops of protein, 3 raw eggs, 2 tsps of dextrose and mix with cold water. Have it all in a shaker, then neck it in a oner. Add some fine milled oats if you want to beef it up a bit and replace lost carbs. Have it 5 mins after your ride, then enjoy the drive home. 8)

AidanR

No guarantees, but it's worth trying to see if it improves matters. On a somewhat more speculative note, you may have a wheat intolerance - a surprising number of people do.

Of course, diet might be only part of the problem. Experiment away!

lef

Zziplex wrote:

If you don't feel like eating, have 2 scoops of protein, 3 raw eggs, 2 tsps of dextrose and mix with cold water. Have it all in a shaker, then neck it in a oner. Add some fine milled oats if you want to beef it up a bit and replace lost carbs. Have it 5 mins after your ride, then enjoy the drive home. 8)

...is this a joke? I'm feeling sick just reading it and it sounds like too much protein & not enough carbs but if it works for you.

You could take the easy option and have a recovery shake, CNP or goodness shakes. As for feeling shattered after riding, if youve not been training hard for long then it could just be your body not being used to the hard work. If it is this then soon enough this will lessen. I would add that half a pack of jelly babies is ridiculously short on calories while riding for 3:50. A 4hr ride I would have about 4 gels and maybe a couple of bars, and it least 2 bottles of water in summer. It does depend on intsenity though.

Just one more thing to consider, if youre riding hard 6 days in a row you may be over training and when it comes to the weekend youre finishing yourself off with a longer ride. A very easy ride in the week to give the body some recovery time may be in need. I dont think you need to have more than 3 hard training sessions in a row, maybe 4 occassionally to give the body a little shock.

AidanR

Personally I think you're better off training yourself to burn fat rather than constantly topping up with carbs. I do four hour rides on water alone without having anything to eat beforehand, but I appreciate this approach isn't to everyone's tastes.

I agree about the possibility of overtraining. Of course, overtraining is really under recovering, so if the OP *can* stop the crash by sorting his post-ride nutrition then by definition he won't be overtraining.

mouth

lef wrote:

Just one more thing to consider, if youre riding hard 6 days in a row you may be over training and when it comes to the weekend youre finishing yourself off with a longer ride. A very easy ride in the week to give the body some recovery time may be in need. I dont think you need to have more than 3 hard training sessions in a row, maybe 4 occassionally to give the body a little shock.

+1. I'm no cycling coach or personal trainer, but everyone I know, including a few pro or high-end semi pro sportspeople prefer this kind of set up a,d is basically what I try for. A good sleep pattern also helps to give your body proper time to heal. Just because you're not 'injured' it doesn't mean there's no damage.

P_Tucker

AidanR wrote:

Personally I think you're better off training yourself to burn fat rather than constantly topping up with carbs. I do four hour rides on water alone without having anything to eat beforehand, but I appreciate this approach isn't to everyone's tastes.

Jesus. Those must be some slow rides.

gavbarron

P_Tucker wrote:

AidanR wrote:

Personally I think you're better off training yourself to burn fat rather than constantly topping up with carbs. I do four hour rides on water alone without having anything to eat beforehand, but I appreciate this approach isn't to everyone's tastes.

Jesus. Those must be some slow rides.

Not really, I do 3-4 hour rides with just a weak squash in my bottles just for a bit of flavour and average around 20mph which I wouldn't call slow. I can't usually sustain it too much longer but come race day or properly fuelled longer rides it seems to pay off

keith1200rs

Drink more on the ride. If you are drinking 2 litres after then you are dehydrated.

Keith

mattgardiner

To be fair I have gone from no riding and no reall excercise at all to riding six days a week in one jump and I was guilty of over training to start with, looking to increase average speed by just riding harder every day rather than getting stronger.

I had gone some way to sorting that out by making sure that I fit in at least a couple of flat slow rides in the week and I think that I should have more control of that now that I have my HR monitor on the bike.

I've got about 20kgs to lose and am at about 122% of what I think that my racing weight is(I think there's a fair amount of speed to be had there as well)and this seems to be dropping off at 70g per day average over the last four weeks which, on gut feel (no pun intended), seems like a pretty quick rate so I guess that's quite a shock for the body - and then even more important to make sure that I'm eating properly.

I'm interested in the fuelling side of a 3hr+ ride. I had carb loaded before this weekends ride and felt great throughout. The jelly babies were absolutely brilliant although to be fair my case for comparison is eating nothing at all so I suppose that any old sugar is going to be better than that. My HR monitor thought that yesterday's ride had gone through 4500 calories and whilst I have no idea on accuracy my calorie intake was probably not much more than half of that for the whole day.

gavbarron

It sounds like the problem is trying to acheive two goals at once, eg losing weight and increase fitness both at a fast rate. I lost a large amount of weight by training like crazy and eating very little which worked but I had to accept that I wouldn't be able to perform at my best whilst doing this as my body is already in a depleted state by nature of my diet.
I'd say get to your target weight first and just enjoy riding on the way. Then when at your target weight you can increase your calorie intake to match the increased consumption as you start to do more focused training for your fitness. It's a slightly longer road on paper but it's more effective and in reality will probably show better gains quicker with reduced injury risk if eating sufficiently.

And as others have said, don't eat crap calories, they do you no good and you crash too quickly after. Eat clean and natural and you can eat more and feel full longer

Good luck and enjoy

P_Tucker

gavbarron wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

AidanR wrote:

Personally I think you're better off training yourself to burn fat rather than constantly topping up with carbs. I do four hour rides on water alone without having anything to eat beforehand, but I appreciate this approach isn't to everyone's tastes.

Jesus. Those must be some slow rides.

Not really, I do 3-4 hour rides with just a weak squash in my bottles just for a bit of flavour and average around 20mph which I wouldn't call slow. I can't usually sustain it too much longer but come race day or properly fuelled longer rides it seems to pay off

Meh. I'd rather do the rides properly fuelled and be that much fitter.

gavbarron

Fitter is a broad term though isn't it. The stuff I've been doing is more endurance based so this sort of thing suited me and now I have a very solid base to build on

I'd think also that 20mph for 4 hours without fuel is pretty fit anyhow never mind just for a 'base' fitness

Shall we just agree to disagree, we've obviously got our own objectives and preferences and there's no point turning it into another thread full of digs

ozzy1000_0

i would have said the OP is over reaching slightly. maybe just try having another rest day in there somwhere.... personally, i can't handle back to back days for a long time (read that as days that are actually hard, not pootling to work), if was was training hard, i would try and train alternate days as much as poss. maybe 4 hardish days a week with 2of those being back to back.... then when i start tofeel fitter/stronger/less tired i might start doing a bit more..... but then again that just me,i need my rest

P_Tucker

gavbarron wrote:

Fitter is a broad term though isn't it. The stuff I've been doing is more endurance based so this sort of thing suited me and now I have a very solid base to build on

I'd think also that 20mph for 4 hours without fuel is pretty fit anyhow never mind just for a 'base' fitness

Shall we just agree to disagree, we've obviously got our own objectives and preferences and there's no point turning it into another thread full of digs

I don't see why two people can't disagree without resorting to "digs". Wait - it's the internet - my mistake.

AidanR

Fasted training is good for building endurance. "Fuelled" training will allow you to push a bit harder, so is going to be better for building strength and power. But long 4 hour rides aren't exactly the best way to build power and strength anyway. The trouble with constantly topping up with gels etc. is that you burn those calories in preference to fat, which isn't ideal if you're looking to lose weight. Of course I wouldn't recommend racing this way!

P_Tucker

AidanR wrote:

Fasted training is good for building endurance. "Fuelled" training will allow you to push a bit harder, so is going to be better for building strength and power. But long 4 hour rides aren't exactly the best way to build power and strength anyway. The trouble with constantly topping up with gels etc. is that you burn those calories in preference to fat, which isn't ideal if you're looking to lose weight. Of course I wouldn't recommend racing this way!

What is your evidence that fasted training is better than fuelled training for improving endurance? If you actually have any (forgive the presumption, but this is BikeRadar after all) I'd be interested in reading it.

AidanR

No, that's a fair point - I shouldn't make assertions without backing them up. It is, of course, more complex than I made out in that comment, and as with so much of sport science and (especially) nutrition it is not without contention.

I would cite this blog, which in turn cites a couple of studies: http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/fasted ... e-and.html

Please ignore then rather freakish photo on the right hand side - it's primarily a weight lifting blog. Less academically, the mantra "train low, race high" has been kicking around for decades. There was also an article in a similar vein on here a while back:
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/fitness/a ... mpty-18071

It should be noted, though, that if you're not used to this type of training you should ease into it. For many carboholic cyclists I think it would come as quite a shock to the system! I am generally not a fan of "sports nutrition" for non-competitive sports people - I think it's not appropriate for the majority, and largely marketing guff anyway. I mean, if you're trying to be lose weight and get lean, is stuffing pure sugar down your throat in the form of gels and sports drinks really a great idea? They absurdly overpriced too.

gavbarron

P_Tucker wrote:

I don't see why two people can't disagree without resorting to "digs". Wait - it's the internet - my mistake.

Agreed

As for the fasted training, it seems to draw mixed opinions which most things do, there's further reading here>

http://rolfdevinci.blogspot.com/2011/06 ... cogen.html

but to counter that

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8248683

One of the benefits of it for me is not needing to buy several quids worth of food/gels several times a week!!!

gavbarron

AidanR wrote:

stuffing pure sugar down your throat in the form of gels and sports drinks really a great idea? They absurdly overpriced too.

Aside from suiting my needs in recent events, this has been another reason for me doing it!

Next year I'll be doing shorter faster stuff though so rest assured there'll be a increase in consumption!