TDF 2011 Cleanest GT rides in years?

cal_stewart

I for one believe the closeness of this years tour may be down to the GT riders finally riding clean.

I base this on cuddles holding yellow and barring a act of god tomorrow winning the race. I see cuddles as a clean rider and steady balls out way he goes about riding each day, without any massive attacks so not to put himself in the red for the next day.

What I've found this year that gives me faith is that the riders who have put massive efforts in have paid for it the next day which is good to see as the biggest advantage with doping is recovery.

I would like to think with the new lab test last year catching bertie out everyone's not risking it this year.

Discuss

Bronzie

Cal_Stewart wrote:

the riders who have put massive efforts in have paid for it the next day which is good to see as the biggest advantage with doping is recovery.

Apart from EBH on stages 16 & 17.

Not that I suspect he's dirty, but a couple of years back we'd have all been giving a knowing wink to anyone getting in a long break and contesting the finish 2 days running.

I certainly hope you're right - that the dominance on Cadel, TV Tommy, Rolland, Thor and EBH signals a turning point at last. Long may it continue,

GyatsoLa

I think it probably was relatively clean, but I think we'd need to see some detailed figures on performance and speed to be pretty sure. Last year the New York Times ran a detailed article indicating that speeds on the big climbs had slowed significantly, which it attributed to less doping.

I think the fact that riders known to be probably clean (like Voeckler) seemed a lot more competitive that riders we know to have been, shall we say 'associated' with dopers in the past is a good indicator. This doesn't mean I think that there is no doping, but I think it does mean that individuals or teams that are doing it have to be much more circumspect now, so they don't have the same advantage. I'd guess that blood passports have been successful at making sure that any blood doping is carried out at a fairly modest level now, rather than the 'jack it up and see what happens' attitude in past years.

I think that eliminating doping is impossible when so much money is at stake. But i think its perfectly reasonable to hope that doping has been reduced to the stage where no clean rider feels he is losing out every race to cheats.

retired_protegee

I personally don't believe Evans is clean. You say how people were putting in huge efforts and feeling the consequences the next day. I guess you didn't watch the entire Tour or in particular the last 3 stages. Evans towed the peloton all the way up the Lauterat and Galibier. The next day he towed the field back to Contador and Schleck and then today he pulls an unbelievable time trial.

I really want to believe in him, but I still think we have a bit further to go for a clean peloton.

Obviously I have no proof either way. But a rider doesn't have to be explosive on the hills to appear a doper. Outstanding performances day in day out are a signal...

rick_chasey

retired_protegee wrote:

Outstanding performances day in day out are a signal...

Might as well stop watching cycling if you think that.

dougzz

Rick Chasey wrote:

retired_protegee wrote:

Outstanding performances day in day out are a signal...

Might as well stop watching cycling if you think that.

It would suggest that Gilbert spent the entire Spring juiced to the eyeballs, as Canc must have last year. I know those are not day to day examples, but given the extra demand of one day races, there were short recovery periods between exceptional performances, so if that's how you judge then........ I just don't know to be honest.

I think it's fair to add that Evans has never been linked to any kind of doping allegation (beyond forum fantasy).

RichN95.

dougzz wrote:

It would suggest that Gilbert spent the entire Spring juiced to the eyeballs, as Canc must have last year. I know those are not day to day examples, but given the extra demand of one day races, there were short recovery periods between exceptional performances, so if that's how you judge then........ I just don't know to be honest.

I think it's fair to add that Evans has never been linked to any kind of doping allegation (beyond forum fantasy).

If you are standing next to someone who is standing on a box and is six inches higher you and then suddenly he is at the same height as you, the logical explanation is not that you have grown six inches.

Lots of riders with long term clean reputations have been coming to the fore more and more in the last few years while the biological passport has been introduced. Power estimates and climbing times are down, the Alpe d'Huez times were like the 80s. Do you really think all these previously viewed clean riders have all found dope simultaneously? Or are you trying to fit the changing situation to your own cynicism?

BikingBernie

Is the racing completely clean these days? I have my doubts as the culture of doping has been ingrained for so long and doping products still seem to be circulating: recall the revelation that one of BMC's soigneurs, who primarily worked with Evans, was caught with 195 doses of Epo in 2009.

On the other hand it seems credible that the bio-passport scheme has put a cap on what riders think they can get away with, so the old days of getting "800 ml of packed cells" prior to a big stage, and riders habitually boosting their haemocrit to 58% plus, are gone.

I would love to see more times so as to get a fuller picture, but it does seem that the racing is slower than is was a few years back. I see that Rolland has been credited with an official time of 42.22 for Alpe d'Huez, almost 5 minutes slower than the best times Pantanti and Armstrong recorded, and this at the end of what was, by Tour standards, a very short stage. His time was even slower than riders from the pre-Epo era, such as Herrera and Fignon. Voeckler got up the Alpe in a time not much faster than Coppi managed in 1952, although I am suprised that he did not go even slower, given the way he blew over the top of the Tourmalet.

The sight of having almost a whole team up there towing their leader to the final 5km, as was the norm with teams like USP, also seem to have gone.

So the signs are positive but as a recent article on the bio-passport in Nature states:

...after running an anti-doping laboratory for a quarter of a century, Catlin is convinced that tests, no matter how sophisticated, will never keep up with the most determined dopers. “For every move to the right, the other guys are moving to the left and it balances out again.”

Overall though, I am tempted to believe that the performances we have seen in this year’s Tour have been the most ‘authentic’ we have seen for a long time.

peterst6906

retired_protegee wrote:

I personally don't believe Evans is clean. You say how people were putting in huge efforts and feeling the consequences the next day.

Good article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opini ... 4tour.html

iainf72

To me, the most eyebrow raising performance of the Tour was Tommy V. If you're going to question anyone, I think he should be the first port of call. Evans seemed to have luck on his side this time, which helped.

GyatsoLa

peterst6906 wrote:

retired_protegee wrote:

I personally don't believe Evans is clean. You say how people were putting in huge efforts and feeling the consequences the next day.

Good article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opini ... 4tour.html

Great article, very interesting. I think the fact that the riders are three minutes slower going up Alpe d'Huez than a few years ago says everything you need to know about whether Biological Passports are working or not.

This is one reason I was so happy to see Thomas Voeckler do well - I've always thought he was one of the riders most likely to have suffered from being relatively clean, so it was great to see him able to compete equally with the top guys.

BikingBernie

iainf72 wrote:

To me, the most eyebrow raising performance of the Tour was Tommy V. If you're going to question anyone, I think he should be the first port of call.

My own eyebrows would have been raised had he rode up to the front group over the Galibier and stayed there. The way he totally blew and was practically in a state of panic in the last couple of km suggests otherwise.

Pross

Only thing that made me raise an eyebrow was Thor winning a stage in the Pyreneesalthough that was down to a lethargic peloton leaving the break to get a huge lead (there were stronger climbers in the break though). I did panic when Bertie attacked on Friday after looking out on his feet the previous day so was relieved he got pulled back.

sherer

the thing is we still aren't really seeing riders have bad days like they used to before the EPO era began.

This leads more to micro dosing hence the slightly slower times.

Lets just say it was a cracking tour and enjoy the racing, if there was micro dosing or something it all seemed to be on a bit of an even level rather than having the USP 9 men still there to blow everyone away on the final climb

tomb8555

BikingBernie wrote:

So the signs are positive but as a recent article on the bio-passport in Nature states:

...after running an anti-doping laboratory for a quarter of a century, Catlin is convinced that tests, no matter how sophisticated, will never keep up with the most determined dopers. “For every move to the right, the other guys are moving to the left and it balances out again.”

Do you have a link for that?

GyatsoLa

tomb8555 wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

So the signs are positive but as a recent article on the bio-passport in Nature states:

...after running an anti-doping laboratory for a quarter of a century, Catlin is convinced that tests, no matter how sophisticated, will never keep up with the most determined dopers. “For every move to the right, the other guys are moving to the left and it balances out again.”

Do you have a link for that?

This article perhaps?

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110715/ ... 5283a.html

(you may need to sign up to see it)

jonginge

GyatsoLa wrote:

peterst6906 wrote:

retired_protegee wrote:

I personally don't believe Evans is clean. You say how people were putting in huge efforts and feeling the consequences the next day.

Good article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opini ... 4tour.html

Great article, very interesting. I think the fact that the riders are three minutes slower going up Alpe d'Huez than a few years ago says everything you need to know about whether Biological Passports are working or not.

This is one reason I was so happy to see Thomas Voeckler do well - I've always thought he was one of the riders most likely to have suffered from being relatively clean, so it was great to see him able to compete equally with the top guys.

The article is by the same guys from this website: http://www.sportsscientists.com/
They've been running articles all the way through the tour. Great stuff including the science meat to the bones in that NYtimes piece.

graeme_s-2

sherer wrote:

the thing is we still aren't really seeing riders have bad days like they used to before the EPO era began.

This leads more to micro dosing hence the slightly slower times.

Lets just say it was a cracking tour and enjoy the racing, if there was micro dosing or something it all seemed to be on a bit of an even level rather than having the USP 9 men still there to blow everyone away on the final climb

Maybe naivety and optimism on my part, but there have been a lot of improvements in sports science (nutrition and training techniques) since the 80s, which could explain the reduction in bad days that riders used to have.

squired

With improved training methods, more targeted racing (i.e. basing a season around a handful of races) and improvements in technology (lighter, stiffer, more aerodynamic bikes, reduced drag clothing, etc), times that aren't much different to the pre-epo era have to be a very good sign.

dougzz

RichN95 wrote:

dougzz wrote:

It would suggest that Gilbert spent the entire Spring juiced to the eyeballs, as Canc must have last year. I know those are not day to day examples, but given the extra demand of one day races, there were short recovery periods between exceptional performances, so if that's how you judge then........ I just don't know to be honest.

I think it's fair to add that Evans has never been linked to any kind of doping allegation (beyond forum fantasy).

If you are standing next to someone who is standing on a box and is six inches higher you and then suddenly he is at the same height as you, the logical explanation is not that you have grown six inches.

Lots of riders with long term clean reputations have been coming to the fore more and more in the last few years while the biological passport has been introduced. Power estimates and climbing times are down, the Alpe d'Huez times were like the 80s. Do you really think all these previously viewed clean riders have all found dope simultaneously? Or are you trying to fit the changing situation to your own cynicism?

I wasn't being cynical at all. I was pointing out to the poster that said "Outstanding performances day in day out are a signal..." that it was not always the case. I said I didn't know, how is this cynical? It would be quite an act of faith to believe riders are clean simply because they say they are. That's not cynical, it's realistic based on a sport that has so many examples of why you should be doubtful.

ms_tree

iainf72 wrote:

To me, the most eyebrow raising performance of the Tour was Tommy V. If you're going to question anyone, I think he should be the first port of call. Evans seemed to have luck on his side this time, which helped.

Iain I expect you will now be searching everyday for something bad about Tommy to come out.
Perhaps you should read this first.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mpcc-ri ... egeay-says

ms_tree

retired_protegee wrote:

I personally don't believe Evans is clean. You say how people were putting in huge efforts and feeling the consequences the next day. I guess you didn't watch the entire Tour or in particular the last 3 stages. Evans towed the peloton all the way up the Lauterat and Galibier. The next day he towed the field back to Contador and Schleck and then today he pulls an unbelievable time trial.

I really want to believe in him, but I still think we have a bit further to go for a clean peloton.

Obviously I have no proof either way. But a rider doesn't have to be explosive on the hills to appear a doper. Outstanding performances day in day out are a signal...

Evans worked for years with the late Aldo Sassi who was vehemently anti-doping which should be proof enough.

sherer

Ms Tree wrote:

retired_protegee wrote:

I personally don't believe Evans is clean. You say how people were putting in huge efforts and feeling the consequences the next day. I guess you didn't watch the entire Tour or in particular the last 3 stages. Evans towed the peloton all the way up the Lauterat and Galibier. The next day he towed the field back to Contador and Schleck and then today he pulls an unbelievable time trial.

I really want to believe in him, but I still think we have a bit further to go for a clean peloton.

Obviously I have no proof either way. But a rider doesn't have to be explosive on the hills to appear a doper. Outstanding performances day in day out are a signal...

Evans worked for years with the late Aldo Sassi who was vehemently anti-doping which should be proof enough.

Ricco worked with Sassi too.

I'd love for Evans to be the first clean winner in years but if the others are meant to be micro dosing then can we really see a clean rider beating them

iainf72

sherer wrote:

Ricco worked with Sassi too.

I'd love for Evans to be the first clean winner in years but if the others are meant to be micro dosing then can we really see a clean rider beating them

Actually, Ricco had 1 blood test at the Mapei centre, Aldo died before they could do any meaningful work.

I think what Fred Grappe said was interesting. Cadel's level hasn't changed, but guys like Schleck and Contador aren't as good as they used to be.

sherer

I guess at the end of the day we will never know. The cynical in me says if it wasn't for the lab going to the press last year the Contador positive would have been covered up, which makes me wonder how much else is covered up.

It was a fantastic tour and Evans is a very worthy winner so at the end of the day I am a very happy fan

knedlicky

See what Evans had to say about doping in this year's Tour in my post in the "Least worthy TdF winner ever?" thread.
http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12791639

One might be then more doubtful about the adjective ‘cleanest’.

iainf72

knedlicky wrote:

See what Evans had to say about doping in this year's Tour in my post in the "Least worthy TdF winner ever?" thread.
http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12791639

One might be then more doubtful about the adjective ‘cleanest’.

What did lil Tommy V say about doping? Or did no one even bother to ask him in his press conferences?

Echo et les Boniments

I think we all want to believe Thomas Voeckler is "clean" and that pro cycling in general is finally cleaning up. But then we also all know pro cycling is a tough world, in which the idea of ethically challenged doctors, dodgy labs, new doping techniques and undetectable ways of cheating can never be entirely ruled out.

A world in which Gerolsteiner used to be part of the MPCC too.

Having said that, things definitely look better these days.

sherer

Evans so no comment which is fair enough. You can't break the omerta we all know what happens to those that do.

Only those that have retired can speak out and by then it is too late

Gotte

Don't get me wrong - I come to this with little specific knowledge of doping, but in my limited view but less limited opinion, I think the greatest change has been the way the tour authorities have been less willing to brush doping under the carpet in the way they used to in the 50s, 60, and 70s.
I;m sure all the greats used to dope. Indeed, some admitted to it quite frankly. In a race where everyone dopes, though, all things end up pretty equal. The only iniquity lies in one guy doping and the other not. Of course, in the bad old days of the late 80s.90s, that would be a great encouragement to dope, even if you didn't particularly want to - the fact you would never have an even playing field without resorting to the tactics of cheats.
I can understand how times would still be better now than before EPO, but not on a par with it, being that bikes are lighter and better equipped, team tactics better, personal training and lifestyle so much more focused.
Of course the causes of doping in our most favourite sport are very mortal indeed - the desire to get one up on the other guy, but I suppose, one thing that has to be remembered is the very nature of the way our sport is designed. Remember Lapize in the Pyranese in 1910 shouting "You are murderers" to the organisers? I know the riders go by choice into the race, but is it a surprise when the ground is made so hard, so brutal, and purposely so, that the riders, only human, after all, look for a way of gaining some advantage?
I'm not saying that I agree with doping, and I'm not saying that I think the tour should be made purposefully easy. Nor am I saying that if it were made pancake flat and short that I believe doping would disappear, but I suppose what I am saying is that in this the cruellest of sports, it is no wonder that riders betray their fallibility.

That said, I do believe that riders now, especially the top riders, will think much longer and much harder about doping, simply because the authorities are so much more tuned into it, and the glare of the media spotlight is so ruthless.

GyatsoLa

sherer wrote:

Ms Tree wrote:

retired_protegee wrote:

I personally don't believe Evans is clean. You say how people were putting in huge efforts and feeling the consequences the next day. I guess you didn't watch the entire Tour or in particular the last 3 stages. Evans towed the peloton all the way up the Lauterat and Galibier. The next day he towed the field back to Contador and Schleck and then today he pulls an unbelievable time trial.

I really want to believe in him, but I still think we have a bit further to go for a clean peloton.

Obviously I have no proof either way. But a rider doesn't have to be explosive on the hills to appear a doper. Outstanding performances day in day out are a signal...

Evans worked for years with the late Aldo Sassi who was vehemently anti-doping which should be proof enough.

Ricco worked with Sassi too.

I'd love for Evans to be the first clean winner in years but if the others are meant to be micro dosing then can we really see a clean rider beating them

Blood passports detect micro-dosing. Micro-dosing is simply a way of maintaining a high haem count after intensive off-season blood doping. The use of micro-dosing was intended to evade in-season EPO testing (the quantities used would clear the system after 8 hours or so).

The point of blood passports is that they detect any intensive method to interfere with blood cell counts, whatever the method used to do so. The point is that if someone is indulging in some form of blood doping, they can only do it to a very minimal level, otherwise it will be detected over time. While this will give them an advantage, its quite a small one, and arguably not worth all the risk involved.

This doesn't of course rule out other forms of doping, but these can be controlled to some extent with conventional testing. A determined athlete will still gain an advantage, but nothing like the situation 10 years ago where it was almost impossible for a clean rider to consistently compete with the dopers.