Why IS the welding so crap on Orange Five frames?

ftwizard
ftwizard Posts: 253
edited July 2011 in MTB workshop & tech
I have a Five, and love it, including the way it looks, and the crap welding, but I was thinking the other day......Do they really think (Orange) the quality of the welding on the swing arm is acceptable, or has it become a bit of a company trademark.
It really is rubbish and I can't understand why they don't sort it.

This most definitely NOT an Orange Five bashing thread, I just don't understand why it isn't better.
Orange 5 Self-Build
Commuter Rockhopper
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Comments

  • 1mancity2
    1mancity2 Posts: 2,355
    Whats wrong with it?
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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Actually, the welding I've seen on Oranges has been exemplary - like a row of coins laid down on top of each other, nice and even, with no blobbiness.
    I have a feeling a lot of the Orange-haters just don't know what a good weld should look like.
  • shimmyhill
    shimmyhill Posts: 42
    The welding is amazing, no wonder they want to show it off!

    They don't grind it down for a polish finish is all, all the better for it and showing off how good the welds are.
  • ftwizard
    ftwizard Posts: 253
    To clarify, I'm talking about the Five only (I have no knowledge of any other in the range) and the swing arm specifically. The rest of the welding on the frame looks very nice, which makes the bad bits stand out even more.
    Orange 5 Self-Build
    Commuter Rockhopper
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    You need to explain in detail why you think they are bad - any close up pics?
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  • cooldad
    cooldad Posts: 32,599
    Probably because the welder has to do the job at arms length to stop his beard, socks (very exposed in those sandals) and woolly hat catching alight.
    I don't do smileys.

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  • ftwizard
    ftwizard Posts: 253
    2880273360042626836S600x600Q85.jpg

    This. You don't need to be a welder to know that something's not right.
    Orange 5 Self-Build
    Commuter Rockhopper
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    It's not the neatest I've seen lol. Infact aesthetically looks a lot worse than the last 5 I looked at.
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  • shimmyhill
    shimmyhill Posts: 42
    Yeah that ones terrible, one i saw had perfect welds but i guess that chap was on a day off when yours was made!
  • ftwizard
    ftwizard Posts: 253
    Ah, so it's just mine then. :roll:
    Just as well I love the way it looks. :D
    Orange 5 Self-Build
    Commuter Rockhopper
  • 1mancity2
    1mancity2 Posts: 2,355
    looks rugged and ready yo go not like a machine has welded it, you know its been welded by hand with love and care until it's 5mins from home time. :wink:
    Finished, Check out my custom Giant Reign 2010
    Dirt Jumper Dmr Sidekick2
  • Northwind
    Northwind Posts: 14,675
    That's not a pretty weld but no reason to doubt its strength. Unless you fancy destructive testing it or cutting it down the middle and having a look. If I was cynical I'd say the blobbiness around the top was to hide a bit of a panel gap. But honestly, first priority of welds is to make it work, there's plenty of pretty welds out there with lovely rolls-of-dimes but crap penetration, or contamination...
    1mancity2 wrote:
    looks rugged and ready yo go not like a machine has welded it

    Which is pretty bad news really, production line welding's far better done by machine.
    Uncompromising extremist
  • benpinnick
    benpinnick Posts: 4,148
    Contrary to popular belief, he 'five' in Orange Five stands for five out of ten. Although your welding looks more like a three.
    A Flock of Birds
    + some other bikes.
  • laightasusual
    laightasusual Posts: 3
    just had a squizz at the same part on my Five frame - looks lovely to me, so maybe you were just a bit unlucky? As long as it holds the bike together though :D
    http://laightasusual.blogspot.com
  • Daz555
    Daz555 Posts: 3,976
    Northwind wrote:
    Which is pretty bad news really, production line welding's far better done by machine.
    At the very least there is no chance of getting a post-pub Friday afternoon frame.
    You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
    If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
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  • paul20v
    paul20v Posts: 267
    Does anyone here no how to hand weld alluminium or done it for that matter
    there is nothing at all wrong with that weld .
  • RevellRider
    RevellRider Posts: 1,794
    Daz555 wrote:
    Northwind wrote:
    Which is pretty bad news really, production line welding's far better done by machine.
    At the very least there is no chance of getting a post-pub Friday afternoon frame.

    There's no chance of that with Orange either, they all sod off home about 2pm on a Friday
    Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Epsilon.
  • Clank
    Clank Posts: 2,323
    Northwind wrote:
    Which is pretty bad news really, production line welding's far better done by machine.

    Sort of. Machine welding is entirely dependent on the quality of the parts input to the system. Crap in, crap out. That kinda thing. The human is very good at compensating for variation in fit and form (we're trying to automate a job for abike company now, as it happens, and we're struggling to get a good result because of part variation).

    How consistant are Orange's incoming bits?
    How would I write my own epitaph? With a crayon - I'm not allowed anything I can sharpen to a sustainable point.

    Disclaimer: Opinions expressed herein are worth exactly what you paid for them.
  • lvquestpaddler
    lvquestpaddler Posts: 416
    Have you had it from new? Maybe it's a "cut'n'shut"? :?
  • Dick Scruttock
    Dick Scruttock Posts: 2,533
    RevellRider wrote:
    Daz555 wrote:
    Northwind wrote:
    Which is pretty bad news really, production line welding's far better done by machine.
    At the very least there is no chance of getting a post-pub Friday afternoon frame.

    There's no chance of that with Orange either, they all sod off home about 2pm on a Friday

    Think that was welded by the YTS lad after everyone had pissed off :lol:
  • Northwind
    Northwind Posts: 14,675
    Clank wrote:
    How consistant are Orange's incoming bits?

    They stamp and fold up the frames from sheet themselves so they'll be as consistent as Orange want them to be... Should be pretty tight. They've got good links with the sheet supplier too.

    Thing is, like I said up the page the welds might work absolutely fine. But it's a premium frame, at a high price, and one of the things you're paying for is the whole "handmade in yorkshire" thing. So, it shouldn't look like it was welded in the dark.
    Uncompromising extremist
  • Clank
    Clank Posts: 2,323
    Northwind wrote:
    They stamp and fold up the frames from sheet themselves so they'll be as consistent as Orange want them to be... Should be pretty tight. They've got good links with the sheet supplier too.

    I can go with that. Means its the welding system that needs addressing!
    Northwind wrote:
    Thing is, like I said up the page the welds might work absolutely fine. But it's a premium frame, at a high price, and one of the things you're paying for is the whole "handmade in yorkshire" thing. So, it shouldn't look like it was welded in the dark.

    True dat! :lol:
    How would I write my own epitaph? With a crayon - I'm not allowed anything I can sharpen to a sustainable point.

    Disclaimer: Opinions expressed herein are worth exactly what you paid for them.
  • Dirtydog11
    Dirtydog11 Posts: 1,621
    It looks no better or worse than the welding on this M9.

    http://www.sicklines.com/gallery/showph ... e/big/cat/
    Kinesis Maxlight XC

    Orange 5 AM Custom
  • getonyourbike
    getonyourbike Posts: 2,648
    Dirtydog11 wrote:
    It looks no better or worse than the welding on this M9.

    http://www.sicklines.com/gallery/showph ... e/big/cat/
    The welding on that Intense looks perfect IMO
  • Matt 24k
    Matt 24k Posts: 186
    I think there is some confusion between the quality of a weld and the look of a weld. It is fairly easy to make a weld look better by grinding it down. Is this better looking weld stronger? I doubt it. That said my 4 week old 2011 Orange 5 frame is much neater than the one pictured. Yes I am still suffering from new frame syndrome and polishing it rather than riding it. I just need to get the first scratch on it and all will be back to normal.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Matt 24k wrote:
    It is fairly easy to make a weld look better by grinding it down.
    I'd dispute that - it's not a bettre looking weld, it's a hidden weld. I never liked the way Canondales used to smooth off their welds, to me it suggested they were hiding something.

    And yes, that Intense looks particulalry nice - I love seeing welding work like that.
  • Dirtydog11
    Dirtydog11 Posts: 1,621
    getonyourbike wrote:
    Dirtydog11 wrote:
    It looks no better or worse than the welding on this M9.

    http://www.sicklines.com/gallery/showph ... e/big/cat/
    The welding on that Intense looks perfect IMO

    Welding around the dropouts could be neater IMO, humans don't do perfect there will always be variation.
    Kinesis Maxlight XC

    Orange 5 AM Custom
  • toasty
    toasty Posts: 2,598
    To their credit, I've not seen many cracking at the welds. Machines will be consistent, this doesn't always mean consistently good, or that the design is flawless.

    Given they're 140mm frames, warrantied to run with 160mm Fox 36 I'd say they're pretty beefy compared to the competition.
    Stumpy FSR 29er
  • Clank
    Clank Posts: 2,323
    Matt 24k wrote:
    I think there is some confusion between the quality of a weld and the look of a weld.

    Nope, not in the slightest. A really neat and tidy weld can be indicative of the bod controlling the torch. If there's a neat weld, it's a sign of care and attention to detail. True the weld might not be perfect, but it stands a bigger chance of being mechanically more sound than a weld that looks like bird poop.

    Fr'instance, If the bead wavers all over the place, it's indicative that the deepest part of the weld is not following the interface of the two pieces to be joined. An inconsistent bead could be indicative of inconstant penetration, and therefore inconsistent strength. A poor surface finish can lead to premature corrosion or cracking.

    S'all related.

    And as Northwind said, you're paying premium cash for a premium product. Look the part, be the part.
    How would I write my own epitaph? With a crayon - I'm not allowed anything I can sharpen to a sustainable point.

    Disclaimer: Opinions expressed herein are worth exactly what you paid for them.
  • ftwizard
    ftwizard Posts: 253
    lvquestpaddler wrote:
    Have you had it from new? Maybe it's a "cut'n'shut"? :?

    How very dare you...... :x
    Or was that just a bit of Dislexia?
    Orange 5 Self-Build
    Commuter Rockhopper

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