Rider education, how do we spread the message?

notsoblue

MonkeyMonster wrote:

So how about highlighting the fact that to obey the law is what each and every citizen of a civilised country should aim to do at all times.

I get caught when I see rljers between wanting to hurt the cyclist or crushing his bike. It's normally the cyclist who gets their legs broken don't worry. The bike is fine.

So we've got illegal comparisons - 85 on a motorway - doesn't impact on pedestrians that much though does it. Driving in bus lanes is as bad yep - I'd like to break their legs too.

It's down to due care and attention and behaving as you would want to be treated. If you jump lights now then in the future and you're out walking your child/niece/nephew and a person on a bike goes through a ped crossing/red light/pelican and scares the living shoot out of them or even hits them etc. you have no right what so ever to feel aggrieved in anyway at all. You of course won't be totally calm at all, you'll be so f*cked off you'll likely want to rip that persons head off.

I know notsoblue doesn't agree with this but most others do. Speaking to the rjlers - your actions affect not just you. People who don't jump - just because you yourself don't think you've got anything in common with the cnuts who do jump doesn't mean the majority of the public don't. Now that might not be right but you will have a very hard time distancing yourself from this incorrect assumption.

In terms of numbers and types I suspect even though I've seen more roadies its likely fairly even across the board (per cyclist type) if you take distance travelled and speed into account. It doesn't make sense that one group would be *that much* worse unless your hypothesis has a killer argument i've not thought of.

I'd love the idea of a police sponsored campaign to cut down on it. I'd like to have a copper with a camera on loads of lights to photograph all the people who jump and then fine them further down the road. Keep coming up with ideas as to how we can get more awareness of both that its wrong but also that not all cyclists do it. Both at the same time and you've got a winner.

anyway... nerve was hit and I'll quieten now.

I can't disagree with most of this to be honest. With regards to the effect it has on other people, I agree to a certain extent. Of course RLJ has an effect on other people if its at pedestrian crossings etc. Its incredibly antisocial, and it makes you look like a cnut.

I just flat out reject the suggestion (by others) that cyclists who RLJ are responsible for the abuse that law abiding cyclists get, and are the reason why we're overlooked by policy makers. But then I'm clearly in the minority on this point!

bails87

If "we" (not me!) didn't RLJ then "they" (motorists, which many of us also are) would still want us to be licensed, and insured, and have bike MOTs and have a number plate, and pay road tax, and have a compulsory helmet law.

And we'd still get stick just for "being in the way".
And if we rode on the pavement while morons wander between bike lane and footpath we'd get abuse for nearly running them over (100kg @15mph). But say anything to a driver when they nearly run you over (2000kg @60 mph) and you're a self righteous car hater.

I don't jump red lights, I ride legally and sensibly, I drive legally and sensibly. The attitude of drivers round here, to cyclists round here has nothing to do with the behaviour of those cyclists. It's to do with the created bogey man, the red light jumping, pavement riding (a paradox, surely?), granny bashing, lycra lout. And there's naff all I can do about that.

joelsim

I agree with this, and to clarify my position, I didn't say responsible for, but contribute to is about right. There will always be a percentage of motorists who think cyclists are in the way etc etc but there are also plenty of others who feel that many cyclists don't help the cause.

Bassjunkieuk

I have had an argument (pre BJUK-Cam days) with a RLJer after I commented "dickhead" rather loudly :-) ) I then repeated it as after he came back over, missing his gap in traffic, it turns out he was also deaf as well as blind as he asked what I called him

Ultimately I think the problem other road users have with cyclists is more deep rooted then RLJer's. We are [literally] a soft target, something for them to get annoyed at and collectively hate on. Everything that goes wrong or causes them a problem is caused because of cyclists. They just don't see us as equal road users.

However in saying this I am falling into their pack mentality. When I say "they" I am immediately tarnishing ALL car drivers with the same brush. By all accounts and very much so since getting my camera it has drawn my attention to the drivers that DON'T get my attention - the 99.9% of drivers who I don't have a near death experience with whilst riding to and from work. Believe it or not the vast majority of car drivers fall right in the middle of the bell curve, they behave acceptably well. It's the drivers that come under the outer edges that normally get highlighted, be it for rather poor or rather good driving.

As for the OP's original question I don't think there is ever going to be a way to completely rid us of bad cyclists in much the same way we can't get rid of poor drivers, who lets face it should face more barriers to getting on the road then us!

Jason82

How about an ad that shows a car driver speeding using no indicators and driving like a twat on the way to work. Then a cyclist on the way to work jumping a red light and cycling on a pavement knocking people out of the way. Followed by a message saying "there are c&nts in cars, c&nts on cycles, BEWARE the c&nts are everywhere!"

bails87

Jason82 wrote:

How about an ad that shows a car driver speeding using no indicators and driving like a fool on the way to work. Then a cyclist on the way to work jumping a red light and cycling on a pavement knocking people out of the way. Followed by a message saying "there are c&nts in cars, c&nts on cycles, BEWARE the c&nts are everywhere!"

Wasn't there an Australian ad campaign, run by their government, that was basically, "Don't be a d**khead". About drink driving or speeding I think

joelsim

And maybe some deer wandering into the road in Richmond Park without using the green cross code

Jason82

bails87 wrote:

Jason82 wrote:

How about an ad that shows a car driver speeding using no indicators and driving like a fool on the way to work. Then a cyclist on the way to work jumping a red light and cycling on a pavement knocking people out of the way. Followed by a message saying "there are c&nts in cars, c&nts on cycles, BEWARE the c&nts are everywhere!"

Wasn't there an Australian ad campaign, run by their government, that was basically, "Don't be a d**khead". About drink driving or speeding I think

Yes I believe there was it was about some city folk driving in the country and then some country folk driving and drinking. It then showed a car wreck and said something like like that from my hazed memory.

yocto

I occasionally RLJ and have cut down a lot on this but still regularly do it. Thinking about what made me cut down and what would reduce it further I can see four main areas:

1) Fear. More fines for those that RLJ. When I first started commuting by bicycle my Mrs was caught by the police for RLJ and either had to pay a fine or attend a training event of some sort. Since that time I have considerably cut back on my own RLJing and always think twice when I do.
2) Education. TV ads etc would be a good idea. One other is instead of the cycle to work scheme, how about free cycle training available to everyone, where once completed you got a voucher to use at a bike store. The voucher would have to be enough to entice people to take the course, say £100 - £150, and the course would have to be long enough so that attendees would learn something, say 3 lessons, 2 hours long. One hour theory (class based) one hour practical (road riding), for example. Voucher only issued once course completed. This way ‘experinced’ cyclists would be incentivised to go for the voucher and will probably learn something in the process (like how not to RLJ...!). Non-cyclists may be lured into a easy way of getting a decent lump of money (voucher) and would learn how to cycle safely, understand what it’s feels like to be cyclist, etc. Despite being an ‘experienced’ cyclist, I would definitely take this sort of offer up and as said, would almost definitely come away having learnt something. IMHO this would be more useful than the current cycle to work scheme. The main beneficiaries are those who are already converted to cycling and want money off a new bike. It does not seem to bring loads of people to cycling as it was hoped and it does not provide anything in the way of promoting safer cycling. It could be funded by the tax credit system thingie (which I still don’t understand!!).
3) Better cycling infrastructure. It was mentioned earlier in this thread about two tier phasing of traffic lights. One for the cyclists so they can clear the main traffic and then one for the rest of the traffic. Very often when I do RLJ, it is because I know from experience of these junctions that car users use it as a starting grid as if they were in F1. Whether you are in the ASL, ahead of it, sitting inbetween cars, they still show very little respect and will get dangerously close. Again, if I am waiting at the lights, ahead of traffic and I can see that the first car behind is a BMW/ Audi driven by a young man, I again know, if I don’t RLJ or sprint off the line, it’s gonna be a close one...
4) The last thing which I think would help is to lead by example. I always stop at a red light if there are other cyclists around, partly hoping that such behaviour will rub off on them, partly as I don’t want to be seen as a RLJ tw*t!

To those that said stopping at red lights will encourage respect form drivers. I have to disagree. From my experience, when stopped at a red light, drivers will often still get dangerously close, and I find most of my close encounters are when cycling with normal traffic, where the driver has no idea if you stopped at a red light or not. The only way to change these drivers is though education, hence my second suggestion.

Initialised

"Friends don't let friends RLJ"

The leading by example/getting in the way at an RLJ seemed to work today on an older gentleman guy (blue clothes, blue Sirrus) who has in the past RLJ'd past me on the same stretch. He is now my nemesis after scalping me at the next incline. I will get you one day...

deptfordmarmoset

notsoblue wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

You see, the thing is, this perception of cyclists just doesn't square with my experience of people who jump red lights. Sure, it happens, but its rarely the "lycra clad" ones that do it. Its usually the people on BSO's, or suited chaps on Boris Bikes, or earnest middle aged chaps in their squash kit riding hybrids, or oblivious ladies on pashley princesses. Its "normal" people who jump red lights. Not just some imaginary cabal of lycra clad moronic evil doers. But then its easier to make sh!t up about a group that is already marginalised by their clothing.

I believe we've agreed to disagree on this point have we not...

Sorry, its my automatic response post every time this is raised. Its pavlovian.

Seriously though, am I the only one who thinks this? Because I think its a pretty important point.

I'm playing catch-up so I haven't read the posts after notsoblue's post above, way back on p2, but he asks a question. I think it's worth taking his earlier post about outgroups into consideration along with his question. Call them what you will, outgroups or scapegoats, I believe cyclists end up being understood as the motorists' Other.

The well-established stereotyping of ''lycra-clad louts,'' beloved of 2nd-rate writers of comment-orientated articles in the popular press, is just reinforcing a ''cliché in a uniform'' that is an instantly recognisable, if mythical, image.

My experience down in that there London is that, though some cyclists wearing road-specific clothing do RLJ, as a whole and taken as a group, they are also the least likely to RLJ. Once they've clipped back in, though, they are the most likely to overtake RLJers.

I also believe that even if the majority of cyclists suddenly and miraculously stopped jumping red lights, the stereotyping wouldn't stop. And that's because of the outgroup perspective - cyclists do not behave as drivers do: they pass when cars are stationary; they are able to squeeze through many bottlenecks; and some RLJ - these different characteristics reinforce that sense of otherness. Take away the RLJing from the list and we'll still be perceived as the other.

EDIT 1: catch-up cont'd...

I just flat out reject the suggestion (by others) that cyclists who RLJ are responsible for the abuse that law abiding cyclists get, and are the reason why we're overlooked by policy makers. But then I'm clearly in the minority on this point!

Minority of 2, at least....

EDIT 2: catch-up cont'd

I don't jump red lights, I ride legally and sensibly, I drive legally and sensibly. The attitude of drivers round here, to cyclists round here has nothing to do with the behaviour of those cyclists. It's to do with the created bogey man, the red light jumping, pavement riding (a paradox, surely?), granny bashing, lycra lout. And there's naff all I can do about that.

Bogey man, scapegoat, outgroup...call it what you will, it's my conviction that it's terms like these that point towards the diagnosis...and the right diagnosis is needed before you can look for the cure.

jds_1981

Minority of three, but I was staying out of this thread as I thought unfair to derail..

Only driver who got annoyed enough to use their horn on my commute today (with any cyclist nearby) was one who thought I was going to slow him down (I nipped out from a group of cyclists at the front of some temporary lights where all of the cyclists were going to amble along on the left, to behind a scooter and the driver thought I was going to get in the way so honked...) Therefore my anecdote is that what drivers really don't like is filtering and slow cyclists in front...

jonny_trousers

jds_1981 wrote:

Minority of three... what drivers really don't like is filtering and slow cyclists in front...

Sad, but true. 99% of the hassle I get comes from a small number of motorists who are peeved that I am forcing them to reach the next set of lights six seconds later than they would have done had I not been there. Those people, the really dangerous ones, may use RLJing as an excuse for showing cyclists little respect, but it is not the reason they do so.

Oh, and sign me up as number 4.

deptfordmarmoset

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

jds_1981 wrote:

Minority of three... what drivers really don't like is filtering and slow cyclists in front...

Sad, but true. 99% of the hassle I get comes from a small number of motorists who are peeved that I am forcing them to reach the next set of lights six seconds later than they would have done had I not been there. Those people, the really dangerous ones, may use RLJing as an excuse for showing cyclists little respect, but it is not the reason they do so.

Oh, and sign me up as number 4.

Your place is behind them! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2nq1gvzWwU

TheStone

Why do you care if others RLJ?
Do you really think the drivers won't hate us exactly the same if everyone stopped?

Bassjunkieuk

We could always try and show them what their actions actually look like, take this guy for example - look for the rider in yellow on left of frame, hidden initially behind the guy in white top and black rucksack.

http://youtu.be/69CLu4MKWSI

He doesn't really slow down, then narrowly missed the motorcyclist before going through a ped crossing. Really good way to re-enforce the positive image of cyclists.....

The Rookie

And everyone who saw that will think 'knob on a bike' not just 'knob' won't they......

Simon

notsoblue

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

We could always try and show them what their actions actually look like, take this guy for example - look for the rider in yellow on left of frame, hidden initially behind the guy in white top and black rucksack.

http://youtu.be/69CLu4MKWSI

He doesn't really slow down, then narrowly missed the motorcyclist before going through a ped crossing. Really good way to re-enforce the positive image of cyclists.....

What a c0ck. It really is irritating to see. He saves so little time from carrying out a manoeuvre that could have caused a pretty nasty off. It makes me think that these people must have never had an accident at speed while on their bike. Having had a couple myself I'm always very aware of what the consequences are, and risking them for something as silly as riding through a red light just isn't worth it.

kieranb

Chatting with the lollipop lady outside my daughter's school it is clear that jumping zebra crossings is not the preserve of cyclists alone, she has many stories of drivers doing so , getting abuse from drivers etc (recently she had to go to court over a driver), a lollipop lady in the next local school has been hit twice by drivers (where our one has a zebra crossing the other one dose not). DSO any actions to curtail RLJing should bear in mind that it is not a mindset unique to cyclists and should maybe target all road users rather than highlight one group. Assuming the concern here is RLJers of all tpyes of transport?

Bassjunkieuk

kieranb wrote:

Chatting with the lollipop lady outside my daughter's school it is clear that jumping zebra crossings is not the preserve of cyclists alone, she has many stories of drivers doing so , getting abuse from drivers etc (recently she had to go to court over a driver), a lollipop lady in the next local school has been hit twice by drivers (where our one has a zebra crossing the other one dose not). DSO any actions to curtail RLJing should bear in mind that it is not a mindset unique to cyclists and should maybe target all road users rather than highlight one group. Assuming the concern here is RLJers of all tpyes of transport?

+1 I've seen quite a few RLJ's by cars at the kids school on the occasions I've been able to take them along. Really pi$$es me off as generally lollipop ladie/men are there for a damn good reason! The problem is a lack of enforcement. Just this morning I was coming round the E&C r/b from Camberwell and a cyclist went clear through 2 reds. There is a police van in the queue and a police car at the front! The worst part is they didn't seem to make any effort to catch him - not that I think they would have been able to with putting the sirens and lights on as traffic was solid once our changed and he was already heading towards the second r/b to carry on (presumably) rlj'ing further on his route. IMHO if you don't see 2 clearly marked police vehicles your obviously not paying attention and/or don't give a f**k.

@The Beginner - Fair point!

notsoblue

kieranb wrote:

Chatting with the lollipop lady outside my daughter's school it is clear that jumping zebra crossings is not the preserve of cyclists alone, she has many stories of drivers doing so , getting abuse from drivers etc (recently she had to go to court over a driver), a lollipop lady in the next local school has been hit twice by drivers (where our one has a zebra crossing the other one dose not). DSO any actions to curtail RLJing should bear in mind that it is not a mindset unique to cyclists and should maybe target all road users rather than highlight one group. Assuming the concern here is RLJers of all tpyes of transport?

Thats quite illuminating

bails87

notsoblue wrote:

kieranb wrote:

Chatting with the lollipop lady outside my daughter's school it is clear that jumping zebra crossings is not the preserve of cyclists alone, she has many stories of drivers doing so , getting abuse from drivers etc (recently she had to go to court over a driver), a lollipop lady in the next local school has been hit twice by drivers (where our one has a zebra crossing the other one dose not). DSO any actions to curtail RLJing should bear in mind that it is not a mindset unique to cyclists and should maybe target all road users rather than highlight one group. Assuming the concern here is RLJers of all tpyes of transport?

Thats quite illuminating

Some drivers being d1cks and then having a go at people not doing anything wrong? I'd say it was to be expected.

kieranb

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

+1 I've seen quite a few RLJ's by cars at the kids school on the occasions I've been able to take them along. Really pi$$es me off as generally lollipop ladie/men are there for a damn good reason! The problem is a lack of enforcement. Just this morning I was coming round the E&C r/b from Camberwell and a cyclist went clear through 2 reds. There is a police van in the queue and a police car at the front! The worst part is they didn't seem to make any effort to catch him - not that I think they would have been able to with putting the sirens and lights on as traffic was solid once our changed and he was already heading towards the second r/b to carry on (presumably) rlj'ing further on his route. IMHO if you don't see 2 clearly marked police vehicles your obviously not paying attention and/or don't give a f**k.

@The Beginner - Fair point!

Had the pleasure of seeing a RJLer getting puller over. I was waiting at the red light, traffic cop on a motorbike was also stopped at the light (but hidden from view by cars). A guy in a suit on a bike sailed through the red light, (I guess he didn't see the police motorcyclist) the cop pulled out, silent flashing light and pulled him over on the other side. Funny I could see the guy getting all defensive as if he'd done nothing wrong.

ga02clr

Personally I think the answer is twofold.

One; lead by example. It does work and if required just have a quite polite word with the RLJ when you catch him up as everyone invariably does.
Secondly I would absolutely LOVE it if the Police would start taking it seriously and fine people for jumping the lights.
It’s not difficult to do and I have seen teams of police do it near St James Park. All you need is a policeman standing further down the road in view of the crossing and then if really required one on a motorbike if they refuse to stop when flagged down.
A lot of the police on bikes are next to useless, they are on Mountain Bikes and many of them don’t look like they are regular riders and certainly not capable of riding a RLJ down.
If they did a form of Community Support officer just to ticket people riding though reds an Zebra’s I would sign up.
My reasons for this are as follows.
1. It’s the first excuse you hear when cycling and motorists and roads are made in any conversation especially in the press. It’s not right, it does not excuse poor driving etc but let’s just remove the excuse.
2. I commute to work to save money and stay fit and healthy. I would like this to be a pleasant experience and annoyed drivers for any reason does not help this. People RLJ does this to drivers and does not make for a pleasant exp for me. Some drivers are incapable of restricting that anger to the offending RLJ.
3. One of my best friends was hit by a cyclist on a Zebra crossing a few years ago. She was in a coma for several weeks and came very very close to leaving us. It does not matter how often it happens etc when it effects you someone saying it only happens once or twice a year does not really help.
4. If a RLJ gets knocked down and dies it’s their fault. The stress and anxiety that is caused for the driver involved is enormous and will affect them for a number of years. The police and ambulance that will have to turn up will be affected and could be saving someone who hasn’t been a complete T1T.

rhext

SimonAH wrote:

RLJ’s are dangerous to the cyclist (a bit) but the most dangerous thing is what they do to the perception of cyclists by the Joe Average motorist and pedestrian. It makes them hate us – no, really, it does.
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How do we best EDUCATE the average, non networked, non committed cyclist that jumping lights hurts every one of us by extension?

You assert that RLJing makes motorists hate us and this therefore hurts us by extension. I'd love to know what evidence you have for this.

My own view is that a small minority of motorists hate us anyway, largely because they perceive us as obstructions, and red light jumping is simply one of the excuses used to 'justify' their feelings and, occasionally, bad behaviour. Along with non-payment of road tax.

If you'll excuse the analogy, this sounds to me like suggesting that the best way to deal with prejudice against immigrants is to campaign for them to take whatever steps they can to disguise themselves and blend in with the indiginous population. Not only would it not work, it's insulting and doesn't address the root cause of the problem.

If I'm going to expend energy on campaigning for anything, it'll be for more effective measures to allow cyclists to move smoothly and safely around our cities, not to ask them to conform to a set of laws and infrastructure which were only necessary in the first place to stop motorists from crashing into each other and mowing down other road users. If we had more thoughtful cycling provision, we'd perhaps not find it necessary to jump red lights.

Bassjunkieuk

@kierenb - I've also seen a few RLJer get nabbed, the most amusing one was possibly the last one I saw when a SS rider went through a red on The Mall by Horseguards only to be chased down by a police 4x4 that was parked behind the arch that leads to Trafalgar Square :-) I know I noticed it there as I rode through so good vision from the officers to see him do it!

As for ga02clr suggestion I'd love to see some "plain clothes" cycle enforcement officers - heck if we recruited a small percentage of the SCR players no cyclist would be safe and I reckon RLJ along Embankment would be a thing of the past ;-)

However this is just one small part of the "puzzle" and a very easy and obvious stick to beat cyclists with. It's all too easy for a few dozen cyclists to ride through a red in central London and given the amount of lights and cyclists around there are plenty of chances for it to happen. Those of us that do stop then overtake the riders have to bear in mind that this can also skew our perspective of RLJing as we are just seeing the same riders jump over and over again as opposed to another rider.

kieranb

ooh, just to clarify that I don't agree with RLJing but not because of an image problem but because one of the reasons the traffic rules are there is to allow road users to make certain assumptions about the actions of other road users. eg I go on green assuming the traffic on the road perpendicular to mine will stop at red etc. Pedestrians also use assumptions in their activity, hence why now a days you often see them hesitating at zebra crossings because they don't know it the cyclist or driver will stop to let them cross as they are supposed to. I have waited a number of times at crossings for the pedestrian to start walking across only for them to wait whilst other road traffic continues to go through the crossing. They shouldn't have to do this nor should we need lollipop ladies etc Sadly RLJing alienates pedestrians (from cyclists) when we have many concerns in common ie.e the prioritization of the open road space in favour of motorised traffic and it's smooth flow.

sketchley

Many times I've seen cyclists stop wait at red light then another cyclist come through and RJL, they look and follow thinking if they can RLJ why not I. If as novice you see lots of other cyclists doing the same why would you not RLJ? That was the case for me before I learnt the error of my ways following a £30 fine. Similarly I watch cyclist jump red light in front of me, then caught up stopped at next red light and they stop too. Conclusion is that the more experienced riders should be setting an example to others.

First.Aspect

Does setting an example extend to wearing the cycling equivalent of a "Baby on Board" sticker?

notsoblue

First Aspect wrote:

Does setting an example extend to wearing the cycling equivalent of a "Baby on Board" sticker?

Could someone mock a badge up? Something that just yells "I'm a sanctimonious Clarkson appeaser". Yeah, something like that would be perfect.