Rider education, how do we spread the message?

SimonAH

I think that as a community we all agree that the classic RLJ (red light jump) by cyclists is not a good thing in general (note the qualifier; let’s not argue about the 0.01% of the time when this is moot).

RLJ’s are dangerous to the cyclist (a bit) but the most dangerous thing is what they do to the perception of cyclists by the Joe Average motorist and pedestrian. It makes them hate us – no, really, it does.

See an Addison Lee taxi? Assume an aggressive driver. See a bus? Assume sweeping moves without checking and sudden stops. See a lorry with overseas plates? Assume a lethal bike crushing juggernaught…… etc. Fact is that nine times out of ten this is unfounded – but the actions of the few tarnish the perception of the many.

Rules
This thread is not about who does it and why, it is not about road safety in general and it is not about personal grandstanding. This is a genuine call to arms.

Single issue.

How do we best EDUCATE the average, non networked, non committed cyclist that jumping lights hurts every one of us by extension?

We are the MumsNet of cyclists guys, we are the Everyman, we can be the policy makers. Serious suggestions please – this is a subject that raises so much bile it would be really interesting to see if we can translate that into a genuinely cohesive plan of action on one tiny little single issue.

Wouldn’t you feel smug if you saw in a year’s time a thread that appeared saying “What about jumping red lights?” and you could respond with “Meh, we sorted that out in 2011, everyone knows it’s a daft thing to do, I was there.”

C’mon, I know it pisses you off – change it, don’t whine about it.

Initialised

We need an ad campaign which steals the Think Bike logo from our mechanically propelled brethren and gives it back to proper two wheeled transport.

A good starting point would be jerseys with Think Bike above an out line of a flattened cyclist.

The RLJ issue is a distraction from a need to have a more mature and positive attitude towards cycling on the road

mtb-idle

Nothing against the OP but I think railing against it on t'internet is fairly pointless.

You need to take action when you see it happening.

I see some riders having a go at RLJ'ers and this normally has an impact.

Lately I have taken to saying 'ars*hole' or 'dickhead' loudly enough for said RLJ'er to hear as they go through the lights.

I'm not saying that is the perfect solution but it's one way of getting the message across.

Raises a few chuckles and nods of acknowledgement from other cyclists sitting alongside me too.

(CS7)

SimonAH

MTB-Idle wrote:

Nothing against the OP but I think railing against it on t'internet is fairly pointless.

You need to take action when you see it happening.

I see some riders having a go at RLJ'ers and this normally has an impact.

Lately I have taken to saying 'ars*hole' or 'dickhead' loudly enough for said RLJ'er to hear as they go through the lights.

I'm not saying that is the perfect solution but it's one way of getting the message across.

Raises a few chuckles and nods of acknowledgement from other cyclists sitting alongside me too.

(CS7)

Ithink that you may have misunderstood me. Railing on the Internet is exactly what I am suggesting is a waste of time. What I was hoping to do was harness some of the internet vitriol and work out (as a group) a way to apply it to the real world. I'll take yours as suggestion number one...

SimonAH

edit. Two.

Discuss.

iainment

SimonAH wrote:

edit. Two.

Discuss.

Ever thought of becoming a park keeper?

unixnerd

We need an ad campaign which steals the Think Bike logo from our mechanically propelled brethren and gives it back to proper two wheeled transport.

+1

The Rookie

The trouble is, with only one set of lights on my commute and rarely seeing another cyclist I don't get a chance, where I see a lot of cyclists RLJ is when I am in town in my car, if I have a go they just assume I'm only a another car driver having a pop and it has little benefit!

Simon

mtb-idle

SimonAH wrote:

Ithink that you may have misunderstood me. Railing on the Internet is exactly what I am suggesting is a waste of time. What I was hoping to do was harness some of the internet vitriol and work out (as a group) a way to apply it to the real world. I'll take yours as suggestion number one...

Nope, I understood you that's why I said nothing against you.

Direct action is the only way to go and I appreciate what you are trying to get going.

Ands

What is the root of the issue? People who should know better but flout the rules, or people who don't know better and don't realise the rules apply to them?

A cycling code of conduct akin to the highway code (or with extracts from the highway code where legalities apply) - supplied with every new bike might be a start. You can't force people to read it but some would. Obviously that won't work for seasoned RLJs who already have a bike but it could serve to educate the increasing number of 'new' cyclists.

desweller

Training + licences. Do you not think people would run red lights in their cars much more often if the rules were not so well enforced?

deptfordmarmoset

I don't think I could ever openly criticise another cyclist for RLJing unless they clearly put themselves or others in danger. I know of no traffic lights in the UK which have been installed to protect other road users or pedestrians from a danger that cyclists present. Nor do I know of any one-way system, gyratory or traffic calming measures installed to protect other road users or pedestrians from cyclists. Cyclists are invariably and systematically caught up, inconvenienced and sometimes endangered, by a series of traffic-restraining measures that have been designed to reduce the dangers presented by motorised traffic. Until someone can provide me with an example contradicting my assertion, I will will have no reason to change my opinion. And I would be perfectly happy to reprimand any cyclist disregarding such an installation, if indeed any such thing exists.

Consequently, the cyclist is routinely on the receiving end of measures designed to restrict motor vehicles. I couldn't tell a cyclist to respect the rules of a road system that patently shows cyclists no respect.

That said, I do follow the rules of the road in a kind of ambassadorial or ''exemplary'' way. I do this in the untested belief that my stopping at a red light (even where continuing would present no danger) may encourage other cyclists to stop.

(I'd be very interested to set up a filmed junction-watch to see whether there is any measurable ''stopping by example'' effect on following cyclists. It must be quantifiable. It would also be possible to test the effect of calling out ''stopping'' or ''easy'' at lights.)

notsoblue

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

I don't think I could ever openly criticise another cyclist for RLJing unless they clearly put themselves or others in danger. I know of no traffic lights in the UK which have been installed to protect other road users or pedestrians from a danger that cyclists present. Nor do I know of any one-way system, gyratory or traffic calming measures installed to protect other road users or pedestrians from cyclists. Cyclists are invariably and systematically caught up, inconvenienced and sometimes endangered, by a series of traffic-restraining measures that have been designed to reduce the dangers presented by motorised traffic. Until someone can provide me with an example contradicting my assertion, I will will have no reason to change my opinion. And I would be perfectly happy to reprimand any cyclist disregarding such an installation, if indeed any such thing exists.

Consequently, the cyclist is routinely on the receiving end of measures designed to restrict motor vehicles. I couldn't tell a cyclist to respect the rules of a road system that patently shows cyclists no respect.

That said, I do follow the rules of the road in a kind of ambassadorial or ''exemplary'' way. I do this in the untested belief that my stopping at a red light (even where continuing would present no danger) may encourage other cyclists to stop.

(I'd be very interested to set up a filmed junction-watch to see whether there is any measurable ''stopping by example'' effect on following cyclists. It must be quantifiable. It would also be possible to test the effect of calling out ''stopping'' or ''easy'' at lights.)

+10

I've observed the "stopping by example" effect. After overtaking a cyclists who I've seen run red lights, they've stopped behind me at the next set. I think thats the best way forward to be honest. Just lead by example. The more a cyclist sees other cyclists stopped at traffic lights, the less socially acceptable it will be to run them. Shouting stuff at RLJ's will just provoke animosity, its not the best way to control the behaviour of an adult you don't know. I know that when I'm yelled by road users at the last thing I want to do is comply with their demands.

jonny_trousers

notsoblue wrote:

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

I don't think I could ever openly criticise another cyclist for RLJing unless they clearly put themselves or others in danger. I know of no traffic lights in the UK which have been installed to protect other road users or pedestrians from a danger that cyclists present. Nor do I know of any one-way system, gyratory or traffic calming measures installed to protect other road users or pedestrians from cyclists. Cyclists are invariably and systematically caught up, inconvenienced and sometimes endangered, by a series of traffic-restraining measures that have been designed to reduce the dangers presented by motorised traffic. Until someone can provide me with an example contradicting my assertion, I will will have no reason to change my opinion. And I would be perfectly happy to reprimand any cyclist disregarding such an installation, if indeed any such thing exists.

Consequently, the cyclist is routinely on the receiving end of measures designed to restrict motor vehicles. I couldn't tell a cyclist to respect the rules of a road system that patently shows cyclists no respect.

That said, I do follow the rules of the road in a kind of ambassadorial or ''exemplary'' way. I do this in the untested belief that my stopping at a red light (even where continuing would present no danger) may encourage other cyclists to stop.

(I'd be very interested to set up a filmed junction-watch to see whether there is any measurable ''stopping by example'' effect on following cyclists. It must be quantifiable. It would also be possible to test the effect of calling out ''stopping'' or ''easy'' at lights.)

+10

I've observed the "stopping by example" effect. After overtaking a cyclists who I've seen run red lights, they've stopped behind me at the next set. I think thats the best way forward to be honest. Just lead by example. The more a cyclist sees other cyclists stopped at traffic lights, the less socially acceptable it will be to run them. Shouting stuff at RLJ's will just provoke animosity, its not the best way to control the behaviour of an adult you don't know. I know that when I'm yelled by road users at the last thing I want to do is comply with their demands.

Nice posts you two. Totally agree.

It ain't gonna happen, but if cycle specific lights were installed (giving us time to get onto iffy junctions ahead of other vehicles) it might encourage people to observe lights better.

shouldbeinbed

DesWeller wrote:

Training + licences. Do you not think people would run red lights in their cars much more often if the rules were not so well enforced?

you forgot numberplates and gatsos set to trigger on bikes, maybe the admin of this could be paid for by some sort of excise licence!

training & licences and enforcement are two different things.
A driving test and licence doesn't seem to promote greater attention to detail for the vast majority of us, nor deter the minority of deliberately agressive dickhead drivers.


Signage at traffic lights aimed at cyclists pointing out it is illegal & maybe with quotes showing how socially aggravating and unaccepable other road users of all types find it to 'educate' the naive. Possibly even an induction loop ahead of the solid white line that triggers a loudspeaker message when the lights are on red and someone moves through it

I don't think the deliberate jumpers will stop unless there is a panda car on every junction or they are killed doing it.

I've had a long argument with a cycle campaigner of the ilk that thinks cars should be crushed for being the wrong colour or driving on a day with a Y in it and that 30.01 mph in a 30 zone should be punishable by death, who thinks that it is right for cyclists to 'break the rules' on RLJ & Pavements and rejects entirely the notion that they are actually illegal or that motorists find it aggravating and it colours their perception and attitiude towards every ther cyclist.

one eyed, bigoted selfishness is sadly a trait just as evident in a minority of cyclists as anywhere else in society and we'll never eradicate it without Judge Dredd levels of instant draconian penalty.

AndyManc

Perhaps this thread should be 're-sited' to the Top Gear website.

Concentrate your efforts on the vehicles that are killing on a daily basis.

IMO , berating other cyclists is way down the list in priorities.


.

prj45

MTB-Idle wrote:

I see some riders having a go at RLJ'ers and this normally has an impact

Twice recently I've said to fellow cyclists coming out side roads on red "I've got enough to worry about without ti**ts like you coming at me from side roads when they should wait behind the red light", and I actually went after a guy who shot the lights at blackfirairs recently (right in front of me as I was turning right on embankment) after he told me to "f*****k off* after I remonstrated with him, he was easy to catch, red light jumpers always are!

prj45

AndyManc wrote:

Perhaps this thread should be 're-sited' to the Top Gear website.

Concentrate your efforts on the vehicles that are killing on a daily basis.

IMO , berating other cyclists is way down the list in priorities.


.

I disagree, other law abiding cyclist are treated badly on the roads because of the law breaking ones.

shouldbeinbed

prj45 wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

Perhaps this thread should be 're-sited' to the Top Gear website.

Concentrate your efforts on the vehicles that are killing on a daily basis.

IMO , berating other cyclists is way down the list in priorities.


.

I disagree, other law abiding cyclist are treated badly on the roads because of the law breaking ones.

+lots

We need to put our own house in order first if we want to have any credibility challenging the bad prctice of other groups.

desweller

shouldbeinbed wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

Training + licences. Do you not think people would run red lights in their cars much more often if the rules were not so well enforced?

you forgot numberplates and gatsos set to trigger on bikes, maybe the admin of this could be paid for by some sort of excise licence!

training & licences and enforcement are two different things.
A driving test and licence doesn't seem to promote greater attention to detail for the vast majority of us, nor deter the minority of deliberately agressive dickhead drivers.


Signage at traffic lights aimed at cyclists pointing out it is illegal & maybe with quotes showing how socially aggravating and unaccepable other road users of all types find it to 'educate' the naive. Possibly even an induction loop ahead of the solid white line that triggers a loudspeaker message when the lights are on red and someone moves through it

I don't think the deliberate jumpers will stop unless there is a panda car on every junction or they are killed doing it.

I've had a long argument with a cycle campaigner of the ilk that thinks cars should be crushed for being the wrong colour or driving on a day with a Y in it and that 30.01 mph in a 30 zone should be punishable by death, who thinks that it is right for cyclists to 'break the rules' on RLJ & Pavements and rejects entirely the notion that they are actually illegal or that motorists find it aggravating and it colours their perception and attitiude towards every ther cyclist.

one eyed, bigoted selfishness is sadly a trait just as evident in a minority of cyclists as anywhere else in society and we'll never eradicate it without Judge Dredd levels of instant draconian penalty.

Actually, the quality of driving in this country is of a very high standard, much as you might like to believe otherwise. You only need to compare accident and fatality rates with those of a country where no testing and licensing exists to see that. I would tend to think that this is at least partly due to training; the principle that formal training and qualifications improves standards is a generally accepted one in most walks of life is it not?

This is not to say that I am in favour of such measures for cyclists; I am just posting a response to the OP's question.

jonny_trousers

I do think a large number of cyclists think of themselves as pedestrians on wheels, which is why they assume it is completely acceptable to cross red lights when other road users are forced to wait. A particularly arrogant bugbear of mine is when cyclists stop traffic at zebra crossings and then cycle from one pavement to the next. I still won't tell anyone off, however, unless they are putting me in danger or if I see them very nearly hit an innocent party - and even then I will probably just offer a 'Tosser!' rather than a lecture.

desweller

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I do think a large number of cyclists think of themselves as pedestrians on wheels, which is why they assume it is completely acceptable to cross red lights when other road users are forced to wait.

I'd definitely agree with this. Cycling = walking+. Especially cyclists that do not drive. I rely heavily on the same skills I use for driving when cycling.

Sirius631

I'm sure that with all the 'Spring Watch', 'Autumn Watch' and 'One Show' programs that the Beeb put out they wouldn't mind dedicating a prime time evening slot to something useful like cycling for commuting and fitness. A feature on desirable bike bling, kit, training and social responsibility could easily fill an enjoyable hour each week.

I'd like to see the 'Star on a Brompton' feature. If we had Jeremy Clarkson, we could rename it 'Fat Man on a Folder'.

Confusedboy

I say again, and wil continue to do so for as long as it continues to be the case as I actually observe it, that it is the majority of cyclists that commit these highly visible crimes, for that is what they are, being illegal. RLJ, pavement riding, and night ninjas are usually the same people, and every time I bother to count seem to be about 2/3rds of the cyclists that I see.

This is not an irritating minority of cyclists we are talking about here, but the normal, default setting. I do not believe (and this is just opinion with no observations to back it up) that the ratio of 'law abiding' to 'normal' cyclists has ever been any different in the 45 years I have been riding bikes, or that the fundamental causes of the phenomenon are any different.

These fundamental causes are, as well as the 'f*ck you' attitude of this majority of cyclists, a persistent refusal by the police to bother with doing their job which is to enforce the law, and an outdated assessment of the speed and danger presented by entry-level BSO bikes which, while we think they are rubbish, are still faster (due to the gears) and stop better than the cheapo bikes of yesteryear, while being heavier and causing more damage when they hit things. The mountain bike revolution of the 80s did not help matters, as a BSO mountain bike looks purpose built for mounting kerbs.

I advocate the free and compulsory licensing of adult cyclists, which would mean registration plates being carried so that miscreants could be identified. We will, by and large, have brought it upon ourselves. I do not think that such prevalent and entrenched attitudes can be changed from within the cycling world-'putting our own house in order'- as it would be a minority attempting to influence a majority who don't care much in the first place. In return for this, I would demand cycle-only phases at traffic lights, with the cycle phase coming before the cars are allowed to go.

SimonAH

OK. here's a thought.

Stickers. With a nice catchy slogan and logo. I don't know, something like this maybe?



Slap one on every pedestrian crossing pole just above the push button on your route.

Even cyclists are peds too, get enough out there.... - then get the story picked up by the Standard..?

Initialised

SimonAH wrote:

OK. here's a thought.

Stickers. With a nice catchy slogan and logo. I don't know, something like this maybe?



Slap one on every pedestrian crossing pole just above the push button on your route.

Even cyclists are peds too, get enough out there.... - then get the story picked up by the Standard..?

+1

Any chance BikeRadar could have a load of these printed on the back of jerseys and mail them to any one who wants one?

BillyMansell

SimonAH wrote:

OK. here's a thought.

Stickers. With a nice catchy slogan and logo. I don't know, something like this maybe?



Slap one on every pedestrian crossing pole just above the push button on your route.

Even cyclists are peds too, get enough out there.... - then get the story picked up by the Standard..?

I wouldn't suggest it's not the best idea for at least two reasons.

1) False logic - it is not correct to suggest or imply that stopping at a red light will earn you respect (and it is the little or no respect received even when acting within the law that often leads people to break the law in the first place)

2) Simple negative imagery - it simply feeds the haters and doesn't educate the perpetrators. Think about driving campaigns for speeding and drink driving - rather than just berate people about doing wrong they seek to educate the harm that result from their wrong actions. It puts into context the results of their actions rather than just telling them off.

Just my two penneth.

richVSrich

maybe something like: "red means stop for bikes too" ?

i do agree the "respect" thing might not be best word...

notsoblue

SimonAH wrote:

OK. here's a thought.

Stickers. With a nice catchy slogan and logo. I don't know, something like this maybe?



Slap one on every pedestrian crossing pole just above the push button on your route.

Even cyclists are peds too, get enough out there.... - then get the story picked up by the Standard..?

I'd be very against a campaign that went along these lines. Cyclists don't have to prove they don't jump red lights before they deserve respect.

We need something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKqZfbH8WNU
Excellent advert imo. In fact, I think the message it tries to get across applies more to cyclists than to motorcyclists. It seems to me that the agency who created it have correctly identified that disregard for or antipathy against road users like motor/cyclists is mainly due to a lack of empathy. Actually, the whole "all cyclists are RLJ" spiel is classic out-group homogeneity bias.

Any advert should be similar to the Think Bike advert in that it should be more about painting cyclists as normal people just like everyone else. This should be the main aim, and I think it would help achieve two important things::

1) It would make drivers more conscious of cyclists as being real human beings just like them who deserve space on the road as much as they do.
2) It would make cyclists feel like less of a maverick group of tough guys who put up with dangerous road infrastructure, abuse from other road users and are above the law.

Point 2 is a pretty common view and if cycling was normalised, behaviour like RLJ would be largely controlled by the community. The same way that jumping a queue at a supermarket is seen as antisocial or indeed running a red light on a bike at a cycle junction in NL.

Honestly, the last thing we need at this point is to fuel the opinion that all cyclists are somehow responsible for the sins of the minority. It would be like ThinkBike releasing an advert that urges motorcyclists to stop weaving in and out of traffic and accelerating in build up areas like d1ckheads.

notsoblue

BillyMansell wrote:

I wouldn't suggest it's not the best idea for at least two reasons.

1) False logic - it is not correct to suggest or imply that stopping at a red light will earn you respect (and it is the little or no respect received even when acting within the law that often leads people to break the law in the first place)

2) Simple negative imagery - it simply feeds the haters and doesn't educate the perpetrators. Think about driving campaigns for speeding and drink driving - rather than just berate people about doing wrong they seek to educate the harm that result from their wrong actions. It puts into context the results of their actions rather than just telling them off.

Just my two penneth.

+1

notsoblue

SimonAH wrote:

then get the story picked up by the Standard..?

****, could you imagine the comments on their website? hah!