Foot path / Knob head problems

bamba

Knob removed from pic, madmole i miss read your previous,
what the best way to find out who own the road and has rights to it ?
i did look at the land registry stuff last year, but thought that roads may be a seperate thing alltogther

Clank

bamba wrote:

Knob removed from pic, madmole i miss read your previous,
what the best way to find out who own the road and has rights to it ?
i did look at the land registry stuff last year, but thought that roads may be a seperate thing alltogther

Highway Authority, or the local council Rights of Way dude/dudette. The ones I've dealt with historically in Derbyshire have been really helpfull. The council will have a RoW department. Give 'em a call - could be a good place to start.

madmole

Land registry is the difinitive source for land ownership and your county councils definitive map for rights of way. Roads are on the "List of Streets" at your local highways dept

Pushing a bicycle on a footpath is perfectly legal and has been tested in court. The moment you dismount you become a "Pedestrian with an acroutrement" This could include a pram, pushchair, wheelchair, dog etc

The only exception to this is royal parks who have their own laws, ie they are the only places in the UK a cyclist can be done for speeding

sniper68

What if it's his land and one day you collide with his vehicle would this then be criminal damage on your part :?
I suppose it would be the same if you hit a farm vehicle whilst riding a FP on farmland or through a farmyard.If you don't technically have a right of way are you then in the eyes of the law guilty of criminal damage?
I've never heard of a case so was wondering what the outcome would be.

madmole

No idea, either way you could be sued for the damages in a civil court

Doesnt there have to be some intent for it to be criminal damage rather than just damage

and in some circumstances damage is legal. ie I'm driving a BOAT and I find the farmer has blocked the route with a padlocked gate. Its perfectly legal for me to remove the gate and or padlock to proceed as long as I cause the least damage and do not remove any of the bits. This is abating and actually is a legal duty on anyone finding an obstruction who has the means to remove it. It is however illegal to go out with the intent to abate. Likewise if you cannot remove the obstruction you are permitted to take the minimun detour over private land to bypass the obstruction.

Larger obstructions need a section 56 being submitted to the council ("order to remove") to get them to shift it

captainfly

My veiw is that if the right of way is a footpath then it is for foot traffic only and you can be asked to leave by the andowner/agent of the landowner. BUT if the 'footpath' is used by other vehicular traffic (there is not a segrigated footway) then it must be a 'restricted byway' what used to be a RUPP (your honour )

madmole

Not nescesarily true, the Restricted Byway laws were rushed through and not fully thought out. Technically ANY road that was also a footpath is now a restircted Byway and not open to vehicular traffic. This includes thousands of normal residential streets and at least one high street. Many peoople technically now have no right to drive to their houses and break the law every day

The road could also be a totally private road with full vehicular use for residents or those with access as part of their deeds, but is not open to the public. If it has a footpath along it, then there is a right of passage on foot but not on bike, horse, carriage or motor vehicle

If its a legal footpath then you CAN NOT be asked to leave by a land owner, nor prevented from passing on it except by a Police Officer or a Council Traffic Restriction Order (TRO)

bamba

Just sent away an RoW enquiry form from derbyshire county council ,will see how we go.
There is no segrigated footway on route, I just find it a pi55 take that all manor of vehicles can use it for access or what ever but a bike is not, i'l continue to use it and try to be polite and reasonable about it all, or ignor him

madmole

Do you allow anyone but your family and friends to drive in your front garden/drive?

Just cos your vehicle uses your drive/garage do you think every cyclist and car around can use it too?

You need to go to Highways at Council and see if that road is on the list of streets. If it is its public and you can cycle it, if not its private and you cant. The fact that its signed provate is a good indicator its not for public use. If it wasnt for the Footpath you wouldnt be alowed to walk on it either

lvquestpaddler

Thank god I live in Scotland, your laws down there are not only complicated but everyone seems so hostile trying to defend their pathetic little bits of land, I feel sorry for outdoors enthusiasts in E&W.
It's the same with river access for paddling in E&W, something like just 4% of the inland waterways are open to the public.....disgraceful. If you're not causing damage and showing due respect then no f***er should be able to tell you to get off their land or river....
You need to fight for a code of access like we have. I've relatives down south but would never dream of taking my bike or kayaks down there for a holiday, what's the point? Would just get constantly hassled- I'd imagine landing a sea kayak on a bit of Cornish/Devon coast sounds idyllic but bet somebody would be watching, come down and harass you just for camping the night and leaving no trace.
I suppose given the population density in certain parts that this is why you have these laws, or the wealthy classes wouldn't be able to keep the hoardes of great unwashed off their land, get really annoyed then sell up and move to Scotland....

bamba

madmole wrote:

Do you allow anyone but your family and friends to drive in your front garden/drive?

Just cos your vehicle uses your drive/garage do you think every cyclist and car around can use it

no ,but my drive way is not marked as a foot path. The map I've done may be a bit miss leading. There is only one sign marked as private road at the north point where it meets morley lane

madmole

bamba wrote:

madmole wrote:

Do you allow anyone but your family and friends to drive in your front garden/drive?

Just cos your vehicle uses your drive/garage do you think every cyclist and car around can use it

no ,but my drive way is not marked as a foot path. The map I've done may be a bit miss leading. There is only one sign marked as private road at the north point where it meets morley lane

Plenty of folks do have footpaths crossing theirs. If you did have a footpath along your drive you would have to allow walkers, but how would you feel if the local "yoofs" kept cycling up and down outside your front door

This scenario is played out thousands of times a week across the UK, with landowners blocking rights of ways and councils being petitioned to close them. We are currently loosing about 20~30 rights of way a year by TRO because of landowners and nimby groups like GLEAM and the Ramblers Association thinking they should be the only users. Not many people know but the RA has a stated aim to remove cyclists and horse riders from the row network once they have removed vehicles from the less than 1% they can currently use. >70 MPs are members of the RA

bamba

sounds like we're all on a looser then, is there an relevant cycling groups fighting the cause ?

madmole

Not that I'm aware of

The TRF (Trail Riders Federation) fights for bikes
GLASS (Green Lane Association) fights for users of Green Lanes (BOATs)
AWD (All wheel Drive Club)
Carriage Club fights for horses and carriage drivers

are the main counter groups we should support, unfortunatly the RA and GLEAM have lots of money, lots of members and a lot of clout. Combined with the councils wanting to get rid of the ROW network as they see it as a cost

Anonymous

There's a lack of fight, even though so many of us bang on about it all the time.

Problem may be that the kind of people who are walkers & ramblers are likely to include older folk, perhaps of some influence in their community, if not with their MP or may even be an MP.

The kind of people who ride mountain bikes are considered "drunken swearing hooligans" (as we were called locally by some of the more mature local community folk in Surrey). We have poor representation.

We could do as Benny Rothman did and organise mass trespass on bikes to land we feel we should have access, to make the point. I'm not sure it would have the same result though.

http://www.singletrackworld.com/2010/09 ... all-areas/

I wonder if a little old lady on a bike or a woman on a bike with shopping basket just pootling along going past this 'Knobs' house would get the same reaction from the guy.

stubs

http://www.cheekytrails.co.uk/ Dont get caught

kdawg74

makes for a good read.

CycloRos

I know the area you're talking about, I used to ride at Drum Hill in my youth. The guy is blatantly a knob, but he probably just hates all mountain bikers just like most of the residents around Drum Hill.

As for legally who's right and wrong? I couldn't care less, I've ridden that section before and I dare say I'd do it again.

sniper68

bamba wrote:

sounds like we're all on a looser then, is there an relevant cycling groups fighting the cause ?

There's a few threads about this on here but in a nutshell a group of us started to bombard local MPs with a pre-organized letter stating reasons for more access and basically mine made it all the way to Richard Benyon MP(Minister for countryside and fisheries) and the response was this:-
Np plans for access in England and Wales to match the access in Scotland and they are planning to look into update the 1949 access laws in 2026 :roll:
Here's the letter:

Dear Angela (Smith MP)
Thank you for your letter of 30 September enclosing one from your constituent, Mr
******** of , High Green, Sheffield, about access for cyclists.
The Government is committed to improving access for cyclists and Mr ******** will be
pleased to know that Natural England's plans for implementation of coastal access include
proposals to identify opportunities to provide local access improvements for cyclists.
The Countryside and Rights of Way Act required local highway authorities to take a
strategic view of their public rights of way network by preparing rights of way improvement
plans to improve the network for users such as cyclists. Most authorities have finished their
plans and we hope that they will now take these forward and implement them, Defra would
also encourage cycling groups to co-ordinate their efforts, and work with local authorities
and other user groups to improve the bridleway and cycle network in local areas in line with
the plans.
Mr ******** made suggestions for changes to current public rights of way legislation, but
the Government has no plans to introduce access provisions in England similar to those in
the Land Reform Act in Scotland.
The legislation has already been subject to a recent comprehensive review with direct input
from user groups. In autumn 2008 Natural England set up a Stakeholder Working Group
with a focus on the issues around the planned extinguishment by the Countryside and
Rights of Way Act in 2026 of pre-1949 public rights of way not yet recorded on the official
definitive map held by surveying authorities.
The Group had a balanced representation from the user, land manager and local authority
sectors. The idea was to work together to suggest how the system could be streamlined,
and to propose associated reforms that would deliver real benefit to all sides.

Not much has happened since then.

Anonymous

2026 !

The wheels of government speeding along nicely then :roll:

If anything any change would be to reverse access anyway rather than open it up further. As said, to cut costs, and I suspect also helps them sell off forestry and other gov owned land which has public access through.

Still, at least it's a commitment. If that was a Lib Dem MP he'd just say they'd be "actively working on it".

That's all my local Lib Dem councillors and prospective MPs ever say when I ask what they're actually going to do :roll:

sniper68

deadkenny wrote:

Still, at least it's a commitment. If that was a Lib Dem MP he'd just say they'd be "actively working on it".

My local MP is a Mr Nick Clegg :? He never bothered to reply....might be busy or summat

lvquestpaddler

Liberals? Clegg? Watch this music video but NOT if you're easily offended

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/40f7fd ... legg-story

northstar

The kind of people who ride mountain bikes are considered "drunken swearing hooligans" (as we were called locally by some of the more mature local community folk in Surrey). We have poor representation.

lol, funny, never seen a cyclist of any kind swear except when falling, yet abuse from "mature locals in surrey" just for daring to mtb is more common...

madmole

LOL, think you get abuse on an MTB!, just try driving a landrover perfectly legally down a BOAT. Hords of ramblers verbally abusing you and hitting the car with their sticks

bamba

you want to get your land rover's an disco's down chapel gate an get it minced back up, since its been resurfaced .different issues altogether mind.

sniper68

bamba wrote:

you want to get your land rover's an disco's down chapel gate an get it minced back up, since its been resurfaced .different issues altogether mind.

That's the reason it's been resurfaced.4X4's/crossers etc come up Rushop and down Chapel GateThe Pennine BW that goes from Rushup Edge down to Roych Clough might be next.They've already put up signs asking motorised traffic to go one way only.

madmole

Yes, GLASS, LARA and the TRF has put up the signs to try and avoid conflict. In other ereas we put up voluntary closures to allow lanes to dry out and we arrange work parties to repair water logged areas, even though most damage is done by farm vehicles and forestry opps

If driven sensibly then the legal drivers do little damge and actually flattern and keep BOATS clear, infortunately there is a large core of prats who think the BOATS are there to abuse and wheelspin on and who also drive "Off piste"

But as for Tarmac, how do you think your high sreet and the raod outside your house come into being, thay were mud tracks at the beginning fo the century and as road surfaces were invented and began to be used the amount of tarmac increased, BOATs, byways etc are just the last roads left, where use in the past was so low that they never needed to be surfaced

sniper68

bamba wrote:

you want to get your land rover's an disco's down chapel gate an get it minced back up, since its been resurfaced .different issues altogether mind.

They've now banned all motorised traffic on Chapel gate until the end of 2012 :roll:

scale20

Stubs,

Cheers for the link, a good read, I especially like this quote

If someone says “bikes are not allowed on here” reply with “yes, I know, silly isn’t it?”

madmole, You have some good reading in this thread, it's a very very touchy subject.

Landowners can be funny people but if you gob-off at them when passing you will end up entering into difficult times with them.

MTB'ers are always slagging off ramblers when they say 'you shouldnt be riding here' but generally it's us in the wrong for riding footpaths and we know it but we still end up entering ito a pissing contset over it.

stumpyjon

Sorry, might already have been asked (got a little bored at the end of page 2), is the knob in question actually the land owner, just because the road is private doesn't mean he is the owner. If he's not then it's nothing to do with him, if he's threatening you, being abusive, could be worth reporting to the police. That way if it ever escalates with you or anyone else it's already on record that he's an abusive knob.