Clipless pedals

joelsim

I've been commuting in regularly over the past few weeks, and every day since I got my new Boardman which I just love.

However, the clips on my pedals are a bit irritating, and I reckon dangerous too if I can't get my foot in first time as my eyes are taken off the road.

Has anyone any suggestions on pedals and shoes. I'd like double-sided and very easy to use (after settling in practice obviously).

It'd also be good if you could let me know how easy they are to fit so that I know whether it's something I can do, or if I need my LBS.

Cheers

Joel

wgwarburton

Hi,
Clipless pedals are supposed to be easier to use, but a bit of practice with toeclips will probably get you used to them. You don't need them tight (I almost never cinch them up) as you can pull up and push forward without.

Means you can ride in whatever shoes you have, too.

Don't let anyone tell you that clipless give you more power- it doesn't work out that way in the real world. Clipless are good for recreational or sport cycling but not so much for utility cycling & commuting.
Some folk commute in full cycling kit on a race bike... fair enough, may as well go the whole hog, then, but if you're just going to work at a moderate pace in normal clothes (and why wouldn't you?) then the only benefit is that they are a little bit easier to learn to use. Once you've got the hang of toeclips you'll find yourself getting into them quicker than most clipless riders!

Cheers,
W.

chilling

I'd have to disagree.

If you can store some shoes at work then a pair of cycling shoes and clipless pedals, once you have got used to clipping in and out are much more comfortable and efficient to ride in.

Your point about power is wrong. If you're using clipless pedals you will be wearing cycling shoes with a stiff sole so your power is transmitted to the crank much more efficiently rather than flexing the shoe you are wearing.

Your feet don't get shaken off the pedal by hitting the pot hole you didn't spot or a patch of rough road so you are less likely to catch a crab.

I'd say I probably miss attaching one time in a couple of hundred on the first application of shoe to pedal these days. A success rate I think I'd struggle to match flipping my pedal to catch the toe clip.

Just my fiddy.

Oh, Shimano M520 pedals, I have a pair of DHB M1 shoes at the moment that do the job just fine.

unixnerd

For a commuting bike you'll not get better than Shimano M520 SPD pedals, cheap as chips and very easy to get in and out of.

wgwarburton

chilling wrote:

I'd have to disagree.

Fair enough... it's just my opinion.

... a pair of cycling shoes and clipless pedals, once you have got used to clipping in and out are much more comfortable and efficient to ride in.

Your point about power is wrong. If you're using clipless pedals you will be wearing cycling shoes with a stiff sole so your power is transmitted to the crank much more efficiently rather than flexing the shoe you are wearing.

That's the shoes, not the pedals., though. Though having said that it's probably easier to find stiff-soled shoes that are clipless-compatible these days.

Your feet don't get shaken off the pedal by hitting the pot hole you didn't spot or a patch of rough road so you are less likely to catch a crab.

I don't find this happens with toe-clips, either.
The only other thing I'd mention is compatibility- for some reason there seem to be several different pedal systems...

Question for the clipless-converts, then: Isn't it tricky to get all of your bikes having the same system and shoes for winter/summer? Or do you end up with different different shoes for different bikes and different seasons?

Cheers,
W.

optimisticbiker

WGWarburton wrote:

The only other thing I'd mention is compatibility- for some reason there seem to be several different pedal systems...

Question for the clipless-converts, then: Isn't it tricky to get all of your bikes having the same system and shoes for winter/summer? Or do you end up with different different shoes for different bikes and different seasons?

Cheers,
W.

There are, but if you stick with SPDs you won't go wrong for 95% of all needs. I have SPD on my MTB and Commuter bikes as this allows me to wear shoes i can walk in with recessed cleats and I wear the same shoes all year round. For the road bike I had SPDs originally but changed to SPD-SL when I moved up to 60mile+ ride distances and got a new pair of more rigid shoes... and they do make a noticable difference on longer rides (i.e. >40miles or so), where the need to clip-out is reduced - less tiring, more power available from tiring legs... If all you are doing is commuting stick with SPDs.

kurako

You could have the same problem with clipless too. I see loads of people staring at their pedals as they faff around trying to get clipped in. The solution is to get better at getting your feet in the right place. With practice you should be able to do it without looking. Clips can be a little more complicated as the pedal tends to angle downwards so you need to account for that when lining your toe up.

The main advantage of clipless is that they don't hurt the top of your feet as much since the load on the upward motion is distributed more evenly by the shoe. One thing you could try is not worry about clipping in for the first rev or two. Once you are moving and can coast it's a lot easier to make adjustments.

joelsim

Thanks for all your help guys. Are they easy to fit yourself, or do I need a bike shop to do it?

flappy8

You may need a pedal spanner to get the old one off if there is no hex on it.

Put the chain on the largest chainring before you start, so that if you slip while undoing them (they can be very tight) your hand doesn't get mashed on the teeth.

Remember that the left pedal has a reverse thread, otherwise you'll wonder why you cant undo it!

zaskar.le

Hi pedals are easy to fit either with an alen key or pedal spanner which is a noramally a long handled one 15mm if memorys correct?.but best if you can use/get is a long alen key normally 6mm?.
they are opposite handed threads i'e ones left& others right handed just look at ones you're going to install for L/R marked.plus don't forget blob of grease on threads!.

What alot of you are missing out which is the most important thing is cleat position on shoe!
the ball of you're foot needs to be over the spindle(ball is the big part where big toes joins foot) what you find with spd type pedals is once you have put cleat on base of shoe you can't realy move it by a few degrees etc as will slip back into last place as marks soles.

Plus another is float which is where foot can move around on pedal which if you have any knee problems/injuries in legs or some people just don't pedal straight?. you need float or you will suffer problems.

The higher end spd's like xt/xtr etc have movement back and front clips where as lower ones only have one end moveable.

Ive used spd type for both racing and everything else.then started getting more knee problems so looked else where.

But the best ive found and now only use both on my road racing/track and mtb's are TIME so easy to set up road is diff pedal to mtb but thens the shoe you will use!
the time atac's are what the mtb ones are called are so easy to use getting ins easy &getting out plenty of float secure and just work.
when placing cleats which are just 2 alen bolts you can move it up and down slots on sole of shoe till you're happy unlike spd's.
They fit any shoe that has the 2 slots underneath.plus they do various pedals i'e single sided other sides flat.
Plus for clipless you can even get sandles with cleats&shoe/trainer types.and warmer boots for winter even.

The road type time have a diff cleat system both similar concept though.it's a 2 part cleat which you need time type base on shoes(i only used time shoes which found best for me wide fitting)they have a number down side of sole which if you go to a TIME bike shop they should have a fitting template which is like a shoe size measuring thing.
It gives you and number which you then place cleat in corresponding one on sole of shoe do up bolts/screws &away you go.

One thing you will find is that you don't have to be namby pamby with time atacs just stamp foot on pedal and away.
Easy to maintain just clean sole&pedal once in a while for dried up crap plus the bearings and parts are replaceable.

The thing with clipless is power transfer you have a stiff sole so not flexing plus unless you ride toeclips done up you can get power on the up stroke i'e pulling pedal up which is how the pro's etc all ride.

unixnerd

Isn't it tricky to get all of your bikes having the same system and shoes for winter/summer?

I run SPD M520s on my tourer and mtb and single sided SPD A530s on my road bike (they're lighter). I have the same pair of shoes for them all over which I wear Planet-X neoprene overshoes in winter.

nation

unixnerd wrote:

Isn't it tricky to get all of your bikes having the same system and shoes for winter/summer?

I run SPD M520s on my tourer and mtb and single sided SPD A530s on my road bike (they're lighter). I have the same pair of shoes for them all over which I wear Planet-X neoprene overshoes in winter.

Similarly I have M520s on my road bike and similar shimano pedals on the MTB (I can't remember the model, they're basically M520s with a plastic cage).

I do have two pairs of shoes, but I only really bought the second pair because I wanted them rather than because I particularly needed them. On wet or snowy winter days I use Sealskinz waterproof socks.

snailracer

IMO the "stiffer sole-less flex-more power" claim for clipless is off target. The sole needs to be stiff only because the cleat is so much tinier than the much large contact area you get with decent flat pedals. SPD cleats are an extreme example - you are standing on something not much bigger than a marble, so of course you'd need stiff soles to avoid hurting your foot.

chilling

snailracer wrote:

SPD cleats are an extreme example - you are standing on something not much bigger than a marble, so of course you'd need stiff soles to avoid hurting your foot.

The size of the contact point for clipless is to make them convenient. They are easy to get in and out of the pedal and can be tucked away into the tread of the shoe so you don't have to walk like some strange bird. It doesn't matter how small the contact patch is because everything is stiff.

By the same token, you are bending your foot across a platform approximately 4 inches long. Unfortunately you aren't wearing stiff shoes so you foot actually bends. However little the bend on your foot, you must be loosing power. From what I see people using toe clips are generally wearing trainers which aren't the stiffest shoe by design, they are designed for running in where some flex of the foot is desirable.

Anyway, I've tried all manner of pedals and shoes and wouldn't go back to platform or clipped pedals.

jonny_trousers

+1 for M520s. Super easy to clip in and out of, cheap and comfy. I pair mine with cheapy Specialized recessed cleat shoes (Tahoes?). Do the job very nicely and you can walk around in them in a way you cannot with road shoes. Fitting is a piece of cake too.

whitestar1

chilling wrote:

I'd say I probably miss attaching one time in a couple of hundred on the first application of shoe to pedal these days. A success rate I think I'd struggle to match flipping my pedal to catch the toe clip.

I have to agree with you. I am using clipped pedals right now and seriously thinking about getting clipless pedals. Looking down to get your toe into the clip while moving off at a stop light isn't my cup of tea.

snailracer

chilling wrote:

snailracer wrote:

SPD cleats are an extreme example - you are standing on something not much bigger than a marble, so of course you'd need stiff soles to avoid hurting your foot.

The size of the contact point for clipless is to make them convenient. They are easy to get in and out of the pedal and can be tucked away into the tread of the shoe so you don't have to walk like some strange bird. It doesn't matter how small the contact patch is because everything is stiff…

For SPDs, I agree that a stiff sole is elegant in that it solves two issues: small contact area and foot flex.

chilling wrote:

…
By the same token, you are bending your foot across a platform approximately 4 inches long. Unfortunately you aren't wearing stiff shoes so you foot actually bends. However little the bend on your foot, you must be loosing power. From what I see people using toe clips are generally wearing trainers which aren't the stiffest shoe by design, they are designed for running in where some flex of the foot is desirable...

Most riders with trainers/flat pedals are positioned on the midfoot, so the foot does not bend.

There are even niche manufacturers (rather better known in the less-hidebound triathlon market) that specifically design shoes with midfoot cleat position. Their premise is that, even with an absolutely rigid sole, a ball-of-foot cleat position is less efficient because energy is consumed by the calf muscle so it can stabilize the ankle as the load on the foot changes during the pedal stroke. With a midfoot position, the ankle is automatically stable, so energy is not wasted by working the calf muscles.

Flat pedal riders naturally find the midfoot position more stable, both in the sense of foot retention over bumps, as well as ankle stability without wasting energy in the calf muscles - not as inefficient as the clipless manufacturers would like riders to think, which might be why I have never seen a study that shows an efficiency increase with clipless pedals vs flats.

snailracer

Here's an article about midfoot cleat positioning:

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blo ... -position/

Rooner

+1 for M520s and DHB M1s, thats my combination for the commute as well. I used toe clips for 20+ years, been on SPDs for a month or so and its WAY easier to clip in whilst moving off using SPDs, you just put your foot roughly in the right position and in it clips. Despite wearing toeclips for so long, I nearly always had to sneak a look, and often spin the pedal around...not so with double sided SPDs.

One thing to watch, I think I put my cleats too far forward, creating a larger lever of my foot. More power but more pressure on my achilles (which has taken a battering from all the running I do). This led to a bout of achilles tendonitis, but shifting the cleats back (ie towards the heel) has made a huge difference.

shouldbeinbed

snailracer wrote:

IMO the "stiffer sole-less flex-more power" claim for clipless is off target. The sole needs to be stiff only because the cleat is so much tinier than the much large contact area you get with decent flat pedals. SPD cleats are an extreme example - you are standing on something not much bigger than a marble, so of course you'd need stiff soles to avoid hurting your foot.

That all depends on the model of pedal you use. Shimano M324s here spd in a cage, and flat on the opposite side. Having stiff soled shoes does make a difference on both platforms.

Toe clips are a PITA in my opinion and as for same power without tightening them (wgw)?????? Why bother with straps then, why did you always see racers tighten the straps at the business end of a race and why do ALL the pros track and road use clipless pedals. Also spd clips are good for a commute if it is hilly / steep.

EKE_38BPM

Buns usually makes a lot of sense, but seems to be an advocate of not making any changes to what is normally worn in order to ride a bike.
Not wearing a helmet is part of this mindset (please don't turn this into a helmet thread) as is wearing civvies instead of lycra and normal shoes with toeclips instead of cycling shoes and clipless.

I know that in Copenhagen and other places that the Buns Method (TM) is the way forward, but if you have a lengthy commute, cycle specific clothing makes a lot of sense to me and that includes cycling shoes and clipless pedals.

One major downside of using toeclips and normal shoes is that the shoes suffer very localised excess wear of the sole. Over winter I used trainers and toeclips on my winter hack and the soles of my trainers suffered hugely in terms of wear and the sole is also suffering from delamination.
If you wear normal shoes you will wear them out quicker. Cycle shoes are designed for cycling so stand up to the rigors of cycling better than non-cycling shoes ever will.

Also, you get power deliver improvements and better foot location on the pedals if you use clipless.

wgwarburton

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Buns usually makes a lot of sense,

Thanks for that.

but seems to be an advocate of not making any changes to what is normally worn in order to ride a bike.

An overstatement, but not far from the truth. I don't think specialist cycle clothing (sometimes referred to as "fancy-dress" :-) ) is necessary for a lot of "utility" journeys and I think it's likely that more people would cycle more often if this was perceived as the norm.

... if you have a lengthy commute, cycle specific clothing makes a lot of sense to me and that includes cycling shoes and clipless pedals.

Agreed. I think the benefits are overplayed, though. As with specialist clothing, it reinforces the impression that cycling's a leisure activity, rather than a means of transport.

One major downside of using toeclips and normal shoes is that the shoes suffer very localised excess wear of the sole. Over winter I used trainers and toeclips on my winter hack and the soles of my trainers suffered hugely in terms of wear and the sole is also suffering from delamination.
If you wear normal shoes you will wear them out quicker. Cycle shoes are designed for cycling so stand up to the rigors of cycling better than non-cycling shoes ever will.

Fair point. I don't advocate cycling in soft trainers, though. Stiff soles are undoubtably a better choice.

Also, you get power deliver improvements and better foot location on the pedals if you use clipless.

I don't think there's that big a difference for the utility cyclist. Depending on your circumstances the convenience of not needing special shoes to ride in may outweigh the benefits... or it might not. Worth thinking about, though, before assuming that clipless are the only option.

Cheers,
W.

snailracer

shouldbeinbed wrote:

snailracer wrote:

IMO the "stiffer sole-less flex-more power" claim for clipless is off target. The sole needs to be stiff only because the cleat is so much tinier than the much large contact area you get with decent flat pedals. SPD cleats are an extreme example - you are standing on something not much bigger than a marble, so of course you'd need stiff soles to avoid hurting your foot.

That all depends on the model of pedal you use. Shimano M324s here spd in a cage, and flat on the opposite side. Having stiff soled shoes does make a difference on both platforms...

So are you riding midfoot on the flat side?

shouldbeinbed wrote:

…why did you always see racers tighten the straps at the business end of a race and why do ALL the pros track and road use clipless pedals...

When I said power, I meant efficiency i.e. power over the whole journey.
If you are talking racers and straps, that’s to stop their feet flying off the pedals when they’re flailing furiously for the finish line, which has less to do with efficiency and more to do with basic safety. I would imagine few commuters ride like that.
If it was more efficient to have tight straps, racers would presumably ride with them as tight as possible at all times. In fact, these days racers tighten up the straps on their clipless shoes only before each sprint finish – they don’t ride with them tight during the whole race.
Track racers still use straps – if clipless was so universally brilliant, why do track riders persist with them?

shouldbeinbed wrote:

…Toe clips are a PITA in my opinion and as for same power without tightening them (wgw)?????? Why bother with straps then …. Also spd clips are good for a commute if it is hilly / steep.

You can get toe clips that can’t even take straps (e.g. Zefal MT45) which provide just enough retention/positioning for riding up steep hills/bouncy downhills without slipping off the pedals.

snailracer

EKE_38BPM wrote:

...
One major downside of using toeclips and normal shoes is that the shoes suffer very localised excess wear of the sole. Over winter I used trainers and toeclips on my winter hack and the soles of my trainers suffered hugely in terms of wear and the sole is also suffering from delamination.
If you wear normal shoes you will wear them out quicker. Cycle shoes are designed for cycling so stand up to the rigors of cycling better than non-cycling shoes ever will...

Hard-soled, plasticky “schoolboy” shoes stand up very well to the rigours of cycling in flats/toeclips, whilst also being cheap and presentable at work. The even-cheaper ones with waterproof pleather uppers are also awesome for a rainy commute.

wgwarburton

shouldbeinbed wrote:

...Toe clips are a PITA in my opinion and as for same power without tightening them (wgw)?????? Why bother with straps then, ...

Most, but not all, of the benefit comes from pushing forward at the top of the stroke, not from pulling upward from the bottom. A loose toeclip keeps your foot in the right place on the pedal and lets you push forward but is easy to slip out of (no clipless moments!) and into, if you practice. The big plus with clipless is that you don't need to practise!

...why did you always see racers tighten the straps at the business end of a race and why do ALL the pros track and road use clipless pedals. ....

See above- most, not all. Track riders typically still use straps to avoid accidental unclipping. Not typically pertinant to commuting, though.

Cheers,
W.

snailracer

WGWarburton wrote:

...The big plus with clipless is that you don't need to practise!

The “clipless moment” threads that pop up on a regular basis would tend to contradict that

roger_merriman

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Buns usually makes a lot of sense, but seems to be an advocate of not making any changes to what is normally worn in order to ride a bike.
Not wearing a helmet is part of this mindset (please don't turn this into a helmet thread) as is wearing civvies instead of lycra and normal shoes with toeclips instead of cycling shoes and clipless.

I know that in Copenhagen and other places that the Buns Method (TM) is the way forward, but if you have a lengthy commute, cycle specific clothing makes a lot of sense to me and that includes cycling shoes and clipless pedals.

One major downside of using toeclips and normal shoes is that the shoes suffer very localised excess wear of the sole. Over winter I used trainers and toeclips on my winter hack and the soles of my trainers suffered hugely in terms of wear and the sole is also suffering from delamination.
If you wear normal shoes you will wear them out quicker. Cycle shoes are designed for cycling so stand up to the rigors of cycling better than non-cycling shoes ever will.

Also, you get power deliver improvements and better foot location on the pedals if you use clipless.

This is my beast of burdon.



Dirty isn't she!

Any how yes on nice pottering days I use trainers or etc and the shoes do squish.

But most of the time I use my old Royal Mail shoes even after 5 years they only show minor wear, mostly from driving I suspect.

I'm perfectly happy with shoes/trousers/T-shirt takes me 40 odd miles to Box Hill and back or into london etc.

And year around commuting in all weathers, I add a coat or a jumper plus gloves when it's cold though often not as I run hot at the best of times.

I also do not loose my footing on the pedal mind you I bin the factory flats as they are awful and put on some reasonable ones.

EKE_38BPM

She is dirty, I bet she's a fun ride.
Riding a bike is like making love to a beautiful woman etc...

I hate riding without foot retention these days, Too many years of using toe-clips then SPD-SL and now SPDs.

walkingbootweather

EKE_38BPM wrote:

She is dirty, I bet she's a fun ride.
Riding a bike is like making love to a beautiful woman etc...

I hate riding without foot retention these days, Too many years of using toe-clips then SPD-SL and now SPDs.

:shock: :shock: What crazy kind of love making requires your feet to be firmly bound? :shock: :shock:

Personally I like to ride the bike clipped in, but have my feet free when love making, I mean you never know when the husband might get home do you

EKE_38BPM

walkingbootweather wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

She is dirty, I bet she's a fun ride.
Riding a bike is like making love to a beautiful woman etc...

I hate riding without foot retention these days, Too many years of using toe-clips then SPD-SL and now SPDs.

:shock: :shock: What crazy kind of love making requires your feet to be firmly bound? :shock: :shock:

Personally I like to ride the bike clipped in, but have my feet free when love making, I mean you never know when the husband might get home do you

Firm footing is vital. You don't want to slip and put your back out.

bails87

Can I just ask, are people's feet really getting bounced off the pedals just from riding on the road?!