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Police + public drinking + providing ID

thelawnetthelawnet Posts: 719
edited July 2011 in Commuting chat
Was just getting my bike from Woking town centre, as I did so I saw a policeman approach a middle-aged couple, slightly weary looking both. The woman was drinking a can of Fosters on tbe bench (at about 2:30pm). They looked like they were having a rest.

Police said 'did you know it's an offence to drink here'.

Woman was not obstructive and was clearly not intoxicated.He then asked if she had any ID, and I think he wrote her details down.

I rode around the block to check the signage re alcohol, which confirmed what I thought - it's not an offence to drink, but the police can ask you to stop and if you don't comply, failure to comply is an offence. Was considering having a word with the policeman, but he let them walk off to exit the area, beer still in hand, so there was't much to say. However, are they really allowed to ask for ID and take your details simply for consuming alcohol and complying when asked to stop?

I think the enforcement was probably due to the Council trying to stop all the weekend chavs drinking and collapsing on the pavement and getting into fights (however the alcohol is served in licensed premises, specifically the chavvy O'Neills and Yates pubs). Daytime drinking locally is really not a problem, but I guess the police have their orders to stop people drinking, but I still didn't think he had any business demanding ID off a 50-year-old woman for having a quiet can of beer on a bench.
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  • bdave262000bdave262000 Posts: 270
    I wish the police would take the same stance around where I live. We have controlled drinking zones which are always ignored, last Friday I had a girl about 15 vomit over my garden wall, she was so plastered she didn't hear me telling her to do it in the gutter, it was only 7.30 in the evening, you see all ages walking along with beer, spirits and you can guarantee at some point in the evening someone will have too much and it is normally the local residents that suffer. If you want to have a drink you either do it in a licensed premises or in private no matter what your age.
    Fat lads take longer to stop.
  • RindleRindle Posts: 219
    edited June 2011
    I imagine he took her detiald so if she was found drinking later by another officer he would have a record in his notebook that he had already spoken to them that day. He probably requested id to ensure that they were who they said they were or to confrim date of birth.

    Just becasue they were middle aged doesn't mean they don't contribute to ASB and general issues in the area. In the area I live in one of our biggest problems is a woman in her late forties. You wouldn't believe she was a problem if you looked at her but after she's followed up thet 230pm can of fosters with seven more she causes massive problems in town and for her neighbours.

    It could well have been an early intervention.
  • dilemnadilemna Posts: 2,187
    Under age drinkers :roll: .
    Life is like a roll of toilet paper; long and useful, but always ends at the wrong moment. Anon.
    Think how stupid the average person is.......
    half of them are even more stupid than you first thought.
  • KoncordskiKoncordski Posts: 1,009
    I wish the police would take the same stance around where I live. We have controlled drinking zones which are always ignored, last Friday I had a girl about 15 vomit over my garden wall, she was so plastered she didn't hear me telling her to do it in the gutter, it was only 7.30 in the evening, you see all ages walking along with beer, spirits and you can guarantee at some point in the evening someone will have too much and it is normally the local residents that suffer. If you want to have a drink you either do it in a licensed premises or in private no matter what your age.

    Kids drinking is the big problem. Had a really nice meal the other weekend in richmond and was getting the bus back home with the other half. 4 or 5 girls get on the bus and they must have been under 16 because the oyster machine made that triple beep (young persons travelcard) noise. I mentioned to my girlfriend that they looked a bit plastered and sure enough 5 minutes later the back of the bus was swimming in vomit. What's a bit sad is that nobody seemed the least bit surprised. Not saying i never stole any of my dads beers when i was younger but come on....

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  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 8,549
    thelawnet wrote:
    ...I rode around the block to check the signage re alcohol, which confirmed what I thought - it's not an offence to drink, but the police can ask you to stop and if you don't comply, failure to comply is an offence. Was considering having a word with the policeman, but he let them walk off to exit the area, beer still in hand, so there was't much to say...

    What were you going to say to him?
    Ben

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  • seatalteaseataltea Posts: 594
    Controlled Drinking Zones are in force in many areas across the country and are designed to prohibit street drinking in public areas.

    They give the Police powers of seizure and make it an offence to drink from open vessels if the drinker fails to obey the instructions of an officer to stop drinking, then an officer would need a name and address to issue a fixed penaltly ticket.

    They are generally not designed for the types of people who are on this forum but instead for street drinkers who shoplift, piss in doorways, and smell bad.
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  • thelawnetthelawnet Posts: 719
    seataltea wrote:
    They are generally not designed for the types of people who are on this forum but instead for street drinkers who shoplift, wee-wee in doorways, and smell bad.

    Not sure about that. Come Friday/Saturday night the girls lying on the street in a pool of vomit might look like tramps, but I'm sure they've got a home to go to.

    I've not got a problem with the perma-drunks with matted hair etc., it's the Saturday night binge drinkers that cause trouble.
  • thelawnetthelawnet Posts: 719
    Rindle wrote:
    I imagine he took her detiald so if she was found drinking later by another officer he would have a record in his notebook that he had already spoken to them that day. He probably requested id to ensure that they were who they said they were or to confrim date of birth.

    I looked up the law and basically the cops can tell you to stop drinking in one of these areas, confiscate your booze, and if you don't comply they can arrest you or issue you with an FPN.

    I don't really see what part of that necessitates taking their details. They hadn't done anything wrong and there was no need to identify them. I understand the the local police have been told to clamp down, even on people quietly minding their own business it seems, but I would not be inclined to provide any personal data when there was no evidence I'd committed any offence.
    It could well have been an early intervention.

    In that case he should have used his powers of confiscation.
  • seatalteaseataltea Posts: 594
    thelawnet wrote:
    Rindle wrote:
    I imagine he took her detiald so if she was found drinking later by another officer he would have a record in his notebook that he had already spoken to them that day. He probably requested id to ensure that they were who they said they were or to confrim date of birth.

    I looked up the law and basically the cops can tell you to stop drinking in one of these areas, confiscate your booze, and if you don't comply they can arrest you or issue you with an FPN.

    I don't really see what part of that necessitates taking their details. They hadn't done anything wrong and there was no need to identify them. I understand the the local police have been told to clamp down, even on people quietly minding their own business it seems, but I would not be inclined to provide any personal data when there was no evidence I'd committed any offence.
    It could well have been an early intervention.

    In that case he should have used his powers of confiscation.

    You appear petty and anti Police.
    'nulla tenaci invia est via'
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  • thelawnetthelawnet Posts: 719
    seataltea wrote:
    thelawnet wrote:
    Rindle wrote:
    I imagine he took her detiald so if she was found drinking later by another officer he would have a record in his notebook that he had already spoken to them that day. He probably requested id to ensure that they were who they said they were or to confrim date of birth.

    I looked up the law and basically the cops can tell you to stop drinking in one of these areas, confiscate your booze, and if you don't comply they can arrest you or issue you with an FPN.

    I don't really see what part of that necessitates taking their details. They hadn't done anything wrong and there was no need to identify them. I understand the the local police have been told to clamp down, even on people quietly minding their own business it seems, but I would not be inclined to provide any personal data when there was no evidence I'd committed any offence.
    It could well have been an early intervention.

    In that case he should have used his powers of confiscation.

    You appear petty and anti Police.

    What does 'anti-Police' mean? The police have specific powers, which are granted to them by us through our elected Parliament. I respect that even though there might be aspects of those powers I wouldn't personally agree with.

    That being so if I am minding my own business enjoying a beer on a sunny day (which the woman in question could have done without restraint by buying a (more expensive) beer from the licensed premises opposite), I see no reason why I would want to give out my personal information to them, when it's clearly contrary to my interests to do so, and where the police have no specific powers to compel me to do so.

    I've been to places where the police enjoy essentially arbitrary exercise of power, and I'm happy I've chosen instead to remain in a country where they by large operate according to the rule of law, a principle I very much admire.

    If the police were to pull me over for exceeding the speed limit, cycling somewhere I shouldn't, or whatever, I would tend to comply with whatever they might ask given that I would be trying to avoid a harsh penalty for an offence, but when I've done nothing wrong I'm not going to assent to usurpation of authority (although that might depend how much was left in my beer bottle :lol:).
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 8,549
    Ben6899 wrote:
    thelawnet wrote:
    ...I rode around the block to check the signage re alcohol, which confirmed what I thought - it's not an offence to drink, but the police can ask you to stop and if you don't comply, failure to comply is an offence. Was considering having a word with the policeman, but he let them walk off to exit the area, beer still in hand, so there was't much to say...

    What were you going to say to him?

    What were you going to say to the police officer?
    Ben

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  • seatalteaseataltea Posts: 594
    thelawnet

    are you

    a) elderly with little else to do but worry about trivia and rant about said trivia

    b) youthful and full of anti authority angst and rage against the man

    c) just a little unusual
    'nulla tenaci invia est via'
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  • thelawnetthelawnet Posts: 719
    edited June 2011
    Ben6899 wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    thelawnet wrote:
    ...I rode around the block to check the signage re alcohol, which confirmed what I thought - it's not an offence to drink, but the police can ask you to stop and if you don't comply, failure to comply is an offence. Was considering having a word with the policeman, but he let them walk off to exit the area, beer still in hand, so there was't much to say...

    What were you going to say to him?

    What were you going to say to the police officer?

    I didn't say anything to the police officer. There is a difference between thinking about doing something and doing something. I'm sure you've thought of saying things to people quite often but haven't actually done so. When those people are strangers/passers-by, I daresay the 'thought ofs' outnumber the 'actually saids'.

    What I 'thought of' was (a) that it's not an offence to sit on a bench drinking a can of beer, (b) that the policeman had no reasonable grounds to ask for ID, (c) that the policeman was disturbing a couple minding their own busness and causing no disruption to anybody. Of course the latter was merely my opinion and perhaps less pertinent than the first two points, but as none of it was 'actually said', so it's all moot anyway.

    Personally speaking, I take note when I see police interefering in behaviour of a kind which I might myself participate, in this case quietly drinking a beer on the street. Seeing that I know that in future I might be spoken to similarly and it makes sense for me to observe and inform myself.

    As it is clearly in fact NOT illegal to consume alcohol there, and whereas I'm fairly frequently subject/witness to antisocial behaviour caused by alcohol served on the cheap + chavvy licensed premises, and never as far as am aware from people drinking on the street, I see no reason in future to desist myself from purchasing and consuming beer from the corner shop/supermarket/wherever - as the local hostelries are chavholes with no gardens and I'm likely to have kids in tow, if I felt like a half-of-lager, the supermarket/corner shop is the only place to go.
  • seatalteaseataltea Posts: 594
    thelawnet

    you need to relax, go have a beer.............just not outside 8)
    'nulla tenaci invia est via'
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  • thelawnetthelawnet Posts: 719
    seataltea wrote:
    thelawnet

    are you

    a) elderly with little else to do but worry about trivia and rant about said trivia

    b) youthful and full of anti authority angst and rage against the man

    c) just a little unusual

    No.

    Are you pliant and submissive and willing to do whatever you are told?
  • motopattermotopatter Posts: 179
    in Germany recently on the S-bahn I viewed in envy a well dressed, clean shaven, suited business man looking gent enjoying a beer at 9.30 on his way to work.
    The train police didn't give a flying one and neither did anyone else. My wife or my son included. In England it's the lout element that spoils it for everyone.
    wave your willy here !!!! :)
  • seatalteaseataltea Posts: 594
    thelawnet wrote:
    seataltea wrote:
    thelawnet

    are you

    a) elderly with little else to do but worry about trivia and rant about said trivia

    b) youthful and full of anti authority angst and rage against the man

    c) just a little unusual

    No.

    Are you pliant and submissive and willing to do whatever you are told?

    I'm not sure, you tell me
    'nulla tenaci invia est via'
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  • petejukpetejuk Posts: 235
    thelawnet wrote:
    Rindle wrote:
    I imagine he took her detiald so if she was found drinking later by another officer he would have a record in his notebook that he had already spoken to them that day. He probably requested id to ensure that they were who they said they were or to confrim date of birth.

    I looked up the law and basically the cops can tell you to stop drinking in one of these areas, confiscate your booze, and if you don't comply they can arrest you or issue you with an FPN.

    I don't really see what part of that necessitates taking their details. They hadn't done anything wrong and there was no need to identify them. I understand the the local police have been told to clamp down, even on people quietly minding their own business it seems, but I would not be inclined to provide any personal data when there was no evidence I'd committed any offence.
    It could well have been an early intervention.

    In that case he should have used his powers of confiscation.

    Perhaps you should have told him he should have used his powers of confiscation instead of the power of conversation he chose to apply. May I direct you to the following link:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/30/part/4/chapter/2/crossheading/power-to-require-name-and-address

    While there may not have been a 'power' to require the name and address in the circumstances, it doesn't mean he can't ask for it - for the reason already given. Is it possible they could have been disorderly already? how much did you see?

    In fact, don't answer that- tell your local constabulary you have identified clear breaches in the codes of practice. :roll:
  • thelawnetthelawnet Posts: 719
    petejuk wrote:
    thelawnet wrote:
    Rindle wrote:
    I imagine he took her detiald so if she was found drinking later by another officer he would have a record in his notebook that he had already spoken to them that day. He probably requested id to ensure that they were who they said they were or to confrim date of birth.

    I looked up the law and basically the cops can tell you to stop drinking in one of these areas, confiscate your booze, and if you don't comply they can arrest you or issue you with an FPN.

    I don't really see what part of that necessitates taking their details. They hadn't done anything wrong and there was no need to identify them. I understand the the local police have been told to clamp down, even on people quietly minding their own business it seems, but I would not be inclined to provide any personal data when there was no evidence I'd committed any offence.
    It could well have been an early intervention.

    In that case he should have used his powers of confiscation.

    Perhaps you should have told him he should have used his powers of confiscation instead of the power of conversation he chose to apply.

    Well no that's not really the point. The poster above suggested they were perhaps problem drinkers and while quiet at that time they could get rowdy later. If that was so, allowing them to leave with beer in hand is not really helpful.

    And if they were not known to the police it seemed a little pointless to bother speaking to the woman.
    May I direct you to the following link:

    You certainly can, I don't see however that sitting on a bench drinking a can of beer constitutes behaving 'a manner that caused or was likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to one or more persons not of the same household as himself'
    While there may not have been a 'power' to require the name and address in the circumstances, it doesn't mean he can't ask for it - for the reason already given. Is it possible they could have been disorderly already? how much did you see?

    I was here:

    http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=church+ ... 33,,0,4.06

    They were on the bench there just by the locked back entrance to BHS and adjacent to the vacant restaurant premises. The whole left side of the road left of where the kerb extends outside BHS is now cycle stands.

    My bike was locked there, I had to tend to my children so it takes a minute or so to get ready, I saw the couple there on the bench, didn't notice the beer, a uniformed police officer came from round the corner and started talking about alcohol, I looked and saw the Fosters can watched and listened for a few seconds to what he was saying, he was audible they were not, I then cycled off to check the signs, came back and watched and saw that they were allowed to go, they turned left past BHS, I cycled past them, they were passive throughout including after the police officer had gone.
    In fact, don't answer that- tell your local constabulary you have identified clear breaches in the codes of practice. :roll:

    I'd rather not bother thanks. Maybe if it happens to me.
  • For all you know the woman or man or both might well have fit the description of someone wanted for another offence..... Perhaps you should take your own advice and keep your nose out of other people's business.
    All hail the FSM and his noodly appendage!
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 8,549
    thelawnet wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    thelawnet wrote:
    ...I rode around the block to check the signage re alcohol, which confirmed what I thought - it's not an offence to drink, but the police can ask you to stop and if you don't comply, failure to comply is an offence. Was considering having a word with the policeman, but he let them walk off to exit the area, beer still in hand, so there was't much to say...

    What were you going to say to him?

    What were you going to say to the police officer?

    I didn't say anything to the police officer. There is a difference between thinking about doing something and doing something. I'm sure you've thought of saying things to people quite often but haven't actually done so. When those people are strangers/passers-by, I daresay the 'thought ofs' outnumber the 'actually saids'.

    What I 'thought of' was (a) that it's not an offence to sit on a bench drinking a can of beer, (b) that the policeman had no reasonable grounds to ask for ID, (c) that the policeman was disturbing a couple minding their own busness and causing no disruption to anybody. Of course the latter was merely my opinion and perhaps less pertinent than the first two points, but as none of it was 'actually said', so it's all moot anyway.

    Personally speaking, I take note when I see police interefering in behaviour of a kind which I might myself participate, in this case quietly drinking a beer on the street. Seeing that I know that in future I might be spoken to similarly and it makes sense for me to observe and inform myself.

    As it is clearly in fact NOT illegal to consume alcohol there, and whereas I'm fairly frequently subject/witness to antisocial behaviour caused by alcohol served on the cheap + chavvy licensed premises, and never as far as am aware from people drinking on the street, I see no reason in future to desist myself from purchasing and consuming beer from the corner shop/supermarket/wherever - as the local hostelries are chavholes with no gardens and I'm likely to have kids in tow, if I felt like a half-of-lager, the supermarket/corner shop is the only place to go.

    Next time, go ahead and have a word with the police officer. Just for me. Consider it an early Christmas present.
    Ben

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  • thelawnetthelawnet Posts: 719
    For all you know the woman or man or both might well have fit the description of someone wanted for another offence..... Perhaps you should take your own advice and keep your nose out of other people's business.

    If they fit the description of somone wanted for an offence, the fact that one of them was drinking a can of Fosters was about as relevant as the fact that they were sitting on a bench or that the sun was shining in the sky.

    If a policeman chooses to (mis)apply his discretionary powers loudly in a public place, he's going to attract attention. Next time perhaps I'll stand a little closer and take notes, nothing wrong with that now is there?
  • al2098al2098 Posts: 174
    Your all missing the point.
    Fosters is Ozzy chav lager not to be tolerated in leafy Surrey in public.
    Does not matter how old the chav or what sex (typically refered to as Chavette or Chavoap).
    Copper was protecting our economy by stamping out this practice.
    If she was sipping Pims I don't think it would have been a problem.
  • bicyclepiratebicyclepirate Posts: 229
    edited June 2011
    thelawnet wrote:
    For all you know the woman or man or both might well have fit the description of someone wanted for another offence..... Perhaps you should take your own advice and keep your nose out of other people's business.

    If they fit the description of somone wanted for an offence, the fact that one of them was drinking a can of Fosters was about as relevant as the fact that they were sitting on a bench or that the sun was shining in the sky.

    If a policeman chooses to (mis)apply his discretionary powers loudly in a public place, he's going to attract attention. Next time perhaps I'll stand a little closer and take notes, nothing wrong with that now is there?

    Were I a police officer and I saw someone I thought might be wanted on a warrant or for an offence and they happened to be drinking a can of beer in a public place. I might take a chance and approach them and ask them for their id. For all you know the local shop owner might well have reported someone shopliftin fosters earlier. The police spend far too much time trying not to use their powers and I for one would b more than happy to produce my Id for any officer that asked for it. They have enough to do withou me second guessing them. However If I had nothing better to do than peep on coppers going about thier business On the other hand......

    Ps if you're overly concerned why don't you join the forc an make a difference o h professional standards you clearly have some expert knowledge :roll:
    All hail the FSM and his noodly appendage!
  • thelawnetthelawnet Posts: 719
    al2098 wrote:
    Your all missing the point.
    Fosters is Ozzy chav lager not to be tolerated in leafy Surrey in public.
    Does not matter how old the chav or what sex (typically refered to as Chavette or Chavoap).
    Copper was protecting our economy by stamping out this practice.
    If she was sipping Pims I don't think it would have been a problem.

    Well yes I did consider this.

    And plus they didn't look very middle class I have to say.

    I was thinking 'I wonder if copper would have done it to me' (I would not of course drink Fosters).

    On a previous occasion a group of three early 20s slightly chavvy men were walking through the town, one had a can of 'Monster Energy' (oversized caffine/taurine energy drink), a myopic copper clocked it and told them that they couldn't drink alcohol and they replied slightly jeeringly that it was an energy drink and went on their way.
  • seatalteaseataltea Posts: 594
    thelawnet wrote:
    al2098 wrote:
    Your all missing the point.
    Fosters is Ozzy chav lager not to be tolerated in leafy Surrey in public.
    Does not matter how old the chav or what sex (typically refered to as Chavette or Chavoap).
    Copper was protecting our economy by stamping out this practice.
    If she was sipping Pims I don't think it would have been a problem.

    Well yes I did consider this.

    And plus they didn't look very middle class I have to say.

    I was thinking 'I wonder if copper would have done it to me' (I would not of course drink Fosters).

    On a previous occasion a group of three early 20s slightly chavvy men were walking through the town, one had a can of 'Monster Energy' (oversized caffine/taurine energy drink), a myopic copper clocked it and told them that they couldn't drink alcohol and they replied slightly jeeringly that it was an energy drink and went on their way.

    You seem to watch people drinking quite often and always when the Police are around, odd.
    'nulla tenaci invia est via'
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  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 8,549
    Maybe go for a pint with spen666?
    Ben

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  • thelawnetthelawnet Posts: 719
    Were I a police officer and I saw someone I thought might be wanted on a warrant or for an offence and they happened to be drinking a can of beer in a public place. I might take a chance and approach them and ask them for their id. For all you know the local shop owner might well have reported someone shopliftin fosters earlier. The police spend far too much time trying not to use their powers and I for one would b more than happy to produce my Id for any officer that asked for it. They have enough to do withou me second guessing them.

    I don't want my name going on any police records if I can help it, thank you, I've no particular reason to be suspicious of the police, but it really isn't prudent to be providing details if you can help it.

    Hypothetical Example:

    * Police see me drinking beer, ask for my details, I provide, they put me on their boozer's database
    * A little while later one of my children has an accident at home, hospital contact police as a matter of routine/child protection, police tell them I'm a boozer, kids get put on some sort of register/get taken into care/who knows what.

    Ok that might be hyperbole, but still there's no possible good that can come from giving them info when you've done anything the police don't like. And alcohol is a particularly risky one IMO.

    US video and the rules on incrimination are different but still makes the point very well: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4885833865
  • thelawnetthelawnet Posts: 719
    seataltea wrote:
    thelawnet wrote:
    al2098 wrote:
    Your all missing the point.
    Fosters is Ozzy chav lager not to be tolerated in leafy Surrey in public.
    Does not matter how old the chav or what sex (typically refered to as Chavette or Chavoap).
    Copper was protecting our economy by stamping out this practice.
    If she was sipping Pims I don't think it would have been a problem.

    Well yes I did consider this.

    And plus they didn't look very middle class I have to say.

    I was thinking 'I wonder if copper would have done it to me' (I would not of course drink Fosters).

    On a previous occasion a group of three early 20s slightly chavvy men were walking through the town, one had a can of 'Monster Energy' (oversized caffine/taurine energy drink), a myopic copper clocked it and told them that they couldn't drink alcohol and they replied slightly jeeringly that it was an energy drink and went on their way.

    You seem to watch people drinking quite often and always when the Police are around, odd.

    Do they not have police in your town centre then? I go into my town centre every day - most crime occurs there so no surprise the cops are there.
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 8,549
    thelawnet wrote:
    Were I a police officer and I saw someone I thought might be wanted on a warrant or for an offence and they happened to be drinking a can of beer in a public place. I might take a chance and approach them and ask them for their id. For all you know the local shop owner might well have reported someone shopliftin fosters earlier. The police spend far too much time trying not to use their powers and I for one would b more than happy to produce my Id for any officer that asked for it. They have enough to do withou me second guessing them.

    I don't want my name going on any police records if I can help it, thank you, I've no particular reason to be suspicious of the police, but it really isn't prudent to be providing details if you can help it.

    Hypothetical Example:

    * Police see me drinking beer, ask for my details, I provide, they put me on their boozer's database
    * A little while later one of my children has an accident at home, hospital contact police as a matter of routine/child protection, police tell them I'm a boozer, kids get put on some sort of register/get taken into care/who knows what.

    Ok that might be hyperbole, but still there's no possible good that can come from giving them info when you've done anything the police don't like. And alcohol is a particularly risky one IMO.

    With a capital-freakin-H.

    Seriously, this is bordering on paranoia. Get some sleep and stop worrying.
    Ben

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