right of way in the Lakes

Stiff_Orange

What you have to be careful about though, is places like Snowdon, where, although there is no actual reason not to ride there, there is an agreement set in place that bikes should stay clear during the daytime hours in summer.
If too many people are seen to be riding there, then they will put a blanket ban in place.

Snowdon is an unusual case because 3 of the main tracks, Rhyd Dhu, Snowdon Ranger and the Llanberis track are all designated bridleways. This was because victorian tourists were taken up to the summit on ponies before the railway was built, and to service the 2 hotels on the summit. By rights you can cycle these routes at any time but not the Watkin or Pyg tracks which are only footpaths.
The voluntary code was brought in because of accidents and what the national park have said is that if that doesn't work they will petition to have the bridleways reclassified as footpaths, therefore banning bikes. The national park cannot themselves impose a ban because they are legal rights of way.

This discussion has come up several times, and I'm almost certain that what seems to be a consistent conclusion is whilst there is no explicit permission for bikes to be used on footpaths, it isn't explicitly mentioned that you can't either

According to the Highways Act 1980 part 1 s329 (sorry to sound a bit Arnold J Rimmer)

“footpath” means a highway over which the public have a right of way on foot only, not being a footway;
“footway” means a way comprised in a highway which also comprises a carriageway, being a way over which the public have a right of way on foot only;

Note that this right of way means you have the right to pass over that particular piece of land, so you can take your bike but you must be on foot

Anonymous

Stiff_Orange, so you just restated my Snowdon comment, in a far more obtuse and pointless manner? nice.

Where does it mention in your quote, anything about bicycles?

diy

Stiff_Orange wrote:

Note that this right of way means you have the right to pass over that particular piece of land, so you can take your bike but you must be on foot

Note that this right of way means you have the right to pass over that particular piece of land, so you can take your bike but your right is only on foot.

Corrected for you.

Stiff_Orange wrote:

The voluntary code was brought in because of accidents and what the national park have said is that if that doesn't work they will petition to have the bridleways reclassified as footpaths, therefore banning bikes. The national park cannot themselves impose a ban because they are legal rights of way.

People do need to be careful, because voluntary bans give them the very power to reclassify the right of way. It is regular use that prevents this.

Anonymous

diy, with regards to Snowdon, it's not a voluntary "ban", per se. It's just a voluntary agreement that mtbers will keep off the mountain during daylight hours in the summer period. It's because there's a hundred kajillion walkers there during those times. It was getting dangerous, and the unoficial loacl DH race there was causing some problems.

bluechair84

@DIY - Thanks for the link to your ROW thread, very imformative.
@Solsurf - Helvellyn might very well be a better option for me, thanks.
@TankSlapper - That the top area of Pike is an SSSI is a damn fine reason not to ride the mountain, I won't be riding into that.

In my experience, if you're polite and not a 'furious cyclist', most walkers are very amiable. But I have met walkers who are 'furious tw@ts' that like to make an example of bikers.
I shalnt ride Scafell Pike, but I have to say that Lingmll Gyll looks like teh most amazing decent.

I'll be up in the Lakes in a few months so I'll be looking for another amazing decent instead.

Anonymous

Are you looking for a decent dh, or a good descent?

Anonymous

stimpy_76 wrote:

Riding a bicycle on a footpath is a criminal offence for which you can be prosecuted in court and fined.

It would be the same as riding a horse on a footpath or driving a car on a bridleway. They are all the same criminal offence and all subject to prosecution and fines.

It is not a simple matter of trespass.

Unless (Busta) you are a qualified and practising lawyer, like I am, I'd not venture your opinion(s) on this and let others end up in court as a result.

:shock: Seriously hope as a qualified practising lawyer you're talking about footways/pavements! i.e. path adjacent to a public road/highway (assuming not a designated cycle path).

Very different from public footpaths & bridleways or even unmarked trails. Civil / tourt law.

Anyway, aside from this let's remember just why there is a legal right of way at all. It's through a deliberate act of trespass back in 1932 (Kinder Trespass). A right which is to annoyance of some land owners, not so much that people are walking on their land but because the paths have to be maintained.

Good article on the whole thing at http://www.singletrackworld.com/2010/09 ... all-areas/

And this is a policeman's view on the legal side of it. Of course he's not a lawyer ...
http://www.singletrackworld.com/2011/04 ... mans-view/

sniper68

deadkenny wrote:

Good article on the whole thing at http://www.singletrackworld.com/2010/09 ... all-areas/

To follow on from this last year this was started.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=1 ... 880&v=wall

A number of us sent out a pre-draughted letter to our local MPs.Some were successful some weren't and it's on-going.My Local MP forwarded my copy to Richard Benyon MP Minister for Fisheries and Countryside who sent me this:-

Thank you for your letter of 30 September enclosing one from your constituent, Paul
I******* of********, High Green, Sheffield, about access for cyclists.
The Government is committed to improving access for cyclists and Mr I******* will be
pleased to know that Natural England's plans for implementation of coastal access include
proposals to identify opportunities to provide local access improvements for cyclists.
The Countryside and Rights of Way Act required local highway authorities to take a
strategic view of their public rights of way network by preparing rights of way improvement
plans to improve the network for users such as cyclists. Most authorities have finished their
plans and we hope that they will now take these forward and implement them, Oefra would
also encourage cyC!!ng groL!ps to co-ordinate their efforts, and work with local authorities
and other user groups to improve the bridleway and cycle network in local areas in line with
the plans.
Mr I******* made suggestions for changes to current public rights of way legislation, but
the Government has no plans to introduce access provisions in England similar to those in
the Land Reform Act in Scotland.
The legislation has already been subject to a recent comprehensive review with direct input
from user groups. In autumn 2008 Natural England set up a Stakeholder Working Group
with a focus on the issues around the planned extinguishment by the Countryside and
Rights of Way Act in 2026 of pre-1949 public rights of way not yet recorded on the official
definitive map held by surveying authorities.
The Group had a balanced representation from the user, land manager and local authority
sectors. The idea was to work together to suggest how the system could be streamlined,
and to propose associated reforms that would deliver real benefit to all sides.
The Group concentrated on making strategic proposals as to what needs to be achieved
through legislative and procedural reform making 31 specific proposals to Natural England
for change in this area. Natural England published those proposals in March of this year
and the Government is still considering them.

So they plan to have a look at it in 2026 but it's unlikely we'll get full access.
Obviously the more people make a fuss the better our chances.

diy

IMO there is no harm in writing to your MP, but its effort in the wrong direction. Simply the best approach is to get the current law working for you rather than for asking for it to change.

The authorities (collectively HWA council etc depending who has responsibility) have a duty to upgrade the status of a footpath if users can show historic use going back 20 years. They are all well aware that many footpaths came in to existence in the 50s without a great deal of diligence, so its likely that many were incorrectly classified as footpaths due to appearance, when there was likely established use by horse riders etc.

In summary if you can show use going back 20 years you can get the status upgraded. Contact your council and ask about applying to modify the Definitive Map & Statement.

To me that is the right approach.

sniper68

diy wrote:

To me that is the right approach.

Possibly but,and it's a big but,there are literally 100s of miles of FPs in the woods around Sheffield alone.1000's of miles in the Peak/Lake Districts etc.Many more 1000's in the other NPs.Getting their status changed would take years and would get opposition from the Ramblers Assc. etc.Upgrading FPs could still lead to grey-areas and misunderstanding.
We are writing to the people who change legislation as that's what's needed.In Scotland there was no change in status,FPs are still FPs etc but they enjoy responsible access for all.
England and Wales should have the same access laws as Scotland.

bluechair84

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Are you looking for a decent dh, or a good descent?

I'm after a long, technically challenging descent that will require big balls, no mestins.
I'm likely to go up to Scotland afterwards to do Devils whatever, Fortobvious and Glencoe. Any Lakes recommendations?

Andrew_J_Heard

screw the man and the system. if your not hurting anyone then i dont see the problem with riding anywhere.

read up on something like "the anti terrorist"books and you will realise that alot of these statutes and so called laws have no strength> unless your hurting or stealing from someone your a free man if you knowhow to fight thing and what to say (Or what not to say )

Anonymous

bluechair84, I think you missed the point completely

sniper68

Walna scar
Helvellyn(Sticks pass or Nethermost/Dollywagon Pike)
Skiddaw
Loads of big descents in the Lakes.

FWIW We found the Devils stair case(Dropping into Glencoe) a bit underwhelming really.The climb up from Kinlochleven is much longer and would make a better descent IMO.

bluechair84

yeehaamcgee wrote:

bluechair84, I think you missed the point completely

Gotcha :roll:

busta gonad

To the OP i fight your corner and you bend over and get shafted, by the landowners in the end, a bycycle is not a horse, so why be catagerised as the same, stick to the BW, those of us with a little sparkle left will be riding trails as good as the Alps and Scotland where they have fair and balanced access laws. Good luck on the Walna scar road, just watch out for the old ladies on shopping bikes

diy

ibbo68 wrote:

diy wrote:

To me that is the right approach.

Possibly but,and it's a big but,there are literally 100s of miles of FPs in the woods around Sheffield alone.1000's of miles in the Peak/Lake Districts etc.Many more 1000's in the other NPs.Getting their status changed would take years and would get opposition from the Ramblers Assc. etc.Upgrading FPs could still lead to grey-areas and misunderstanding.
We are writing to the people who change legislation as that's what's needed.In Scotland there was no change in status,FPs are still FPs etc but they enjoy responsible access for all.
England and Wales should have the same access laws as Scotland.

My point is there are existing laws that enable you to get the status changed based on an established right of ways. Its not like a planning application the other user groups don't have a right to object. You could use open MTB to document your claim and kill two birds with one stone.

On a related point I'm now wondering if a claim of right would be a good defence to a trespass allegation? Perhaps the Qualified practicing lawyer will be back to comment?

GAndy

Beware the Ramblers Assc. There may be many times more footpaths than bridleways but the Ramblers Assc appear to want the countryside to themselves. A few years ago motorised off roaders lost a very large chunk of the routes that they could use due to pressure on the then government by the Ramblers Assc. The reason for the pressure was that a few selfish and inconsiderate off roaders used routes that they had no entitlement to use and the Ramblers used this illegal activity to restrict the law abiding majority.

So you may not give two hoots what a few stuffy red socks think but please consider that they may get your fellow riders legal enjoyment of the countryside restricted - the Ramblers Assc is a mighty political beast with friends in high places and to my knowledge there is no similar mountain biking organisation.

And just incase I seem to be anti-rambler, I've been walking the fells since before I was 2 and still enjoy it, I just don't like selfish attitudes whatever side they are on.

Andy

diy

IMO no amount of reason, knowledge or politeness will convince the hardened bobble hat that anyone is entitled to use the countryside other than them.

"Footpaths are for feet" and "the countryside is for walking" mentality.

Anonymous

Many of them can be highly influential types with powerful connections, whereas we're just scruffy gits ("drunken hooligans" as some of us Surrey MTB folk were branded by them recently in the press!).

Matt_

bluechair84 wrote:

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Are you looking for a decent dh, or a good descent?

I'm after a long, technically challenging descent that will require big balls, no mestins.
I'm likely to go up to Scotland afterwards to do Devils whatever, Fortobvious and Glencoe. Any Lakes recommendations?

Walna Scar Road up from Seathwaite then down in to Coniston
Up to Skiddaw summit on the bridleway then descend down Ullock Pike (you need to be doing that in an evening as its a footpath descent...)
Garburn Pass
Harter Fell then down on to Nan Bield Pass (Harter Fell is footpath again so another evening job)

Walna is my favourite. Not done Helvellyn yet.

altern_8

Matt_ wrote:

Walna Scar Road up from Seathwaite then down in to Coniston

I myself prefer taking the downhill into Torver,rather then going into Coniston

And hopefully ill be able to get back to you when i get round to doing Garburn Pass/Nan Bield towards end of September :roll:

sniper68

The descent from Brockbarrow/Brown Haw into Seathwaite is a good 'un also 8)

altern_8 wrote:

I myself prefer taking the downhill into Torver,rather then going into Coniston

But then you miss out the rocky gully/gap :roll:

Probably the best bit of the whole descent 8)

altern_8

Yep youre right about the descent into seathwaite,if you have loose fillings,they will be left coming down there.......and with regards to youre pic,i had allready done enough walking getting up walna scar

Matt_

I usually start at the Old Man car park, pedal back up till the track branches off down to Torver and go down there. Then do the rest of the route as normal and end up back at the car park.

ibbo68 wrote:

The descent from Brockbarrow/Brown Haw into Seathwaite is a good 'un also 8)

altern_8 wrote:

I myself prefer taking the downhill into Torver,rather then going into Coniston

But then you miss out the rocky gully/gap :roll:

Probably the best bit of the whole descent 8)

When you are coming down Walna it doesn't branch off to go down to Torver until just after you have gone through that rock cut out... so you dont miss it if you go down to Torver Unless there is another track further up you are going down that I dont know about of course!

sniper68

We've only dropped to Torver once and IIRC we definitely missed the gully.We turned off before crossing the bridge and found the drop a bit tame so we've not done it since.I've done the route 3 times(plus an aborted attempt) but only done the gully bit twice.On the other hand if you go down to Coniston you lose a lot of height on Tarmac :roll:
We're having another go in a couple of weeks so I'll take note then.

Matt_

Ah right yeah I know where you mean now. Carry on the main track over the bridge down to that rock gully, once you've gone through the rock gully and gone something like 5 or 10 metres down the track you can turn right and it takes you down to Torver.

Its not bad going down that way, you go down past an old quarry then on a track that runs between the slag heaps. Then it meets up with the track that comes down from before the bridge. Better than going down the tarmac road to Coniston anyway.

Giggsmaster

Yeah, your right about being able to take in the rock garden before you hit the turn off for Torver. We have done this section everytime we have made the trip across for Walna Scar.

There are 2 BWs descending into Torver..... 8)

sniper68

Has anyone tried the descent that turns right just after the 2nd drop to Torver?It comes out just South of Coniston,near Spoon Hall?
I know there's a cheeky descent that joins it starting from the Car park as you reach the Tarmac but wondered if the whole BW is worth a go?

Matt_

I've done the same as you and gone along from the car park on the footpath till it meets the bridleway then descended to the old railway line, I quite liked that.

Not done the top part as it just looked like you went across boggy grass, could be wrong though.