Headset compatability

The Rookie

My bike currently has this headset http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... yId_210157 (which Halfords call Semi integrated and FSA call internal) and while its nice and smooth in operation its a bit rusty and tatty looking, I have been offered a http://www.fullspeedahead.com/products/315/Impact FOC it is the same 41.8mm OD into the frame and FSA call it integrated, I assume it either won't fit or 'may not fit' but does anyone know which?

Simon

supersonic

From what I can see they are totally different headset standards:

The No 11 is an 'internal' headset ie uses cups, the Impact is an integrated ie no cups, the bearings slip into the headtube. Is the Campognolo hiddenset standard.

jairaj

Doesn't look like it will fit to me.

Internal or semi integrated headsets are similar to aheadsets in that they have push fit cups but the cups sit inside the head leaving almost zero stack height.

An integrated headset has no cups. The frame's headtube is shaped to accept and hold the bearings so not requiring any cups.

If your current headet cups are in good shape just replace the bearings and job should be a goodun


*** edit beaten by Sonic again

The Rookie

LOL, neither of these have cups, so that blows that advice apart! Both have the outer race that is the bit that is the push/interference fit in the frame and both are 41.8mm OD, its possible the Impact will go to far into the frame and cause a foul elsewhere, also the lower stack will lower the front end a little.

SS I agree they are different standards, but they are very similar, the only issue I can see is if there is no 'stop' in the head tube and it relies on the flange to stop the bearing going too far in.

Simon

supersonic

The FSA No 11 very clearly has cups. Internal and integrated are totally different things.

supersonic

Number 11:



Impact:



Unless I am reading it wrong!

The Rookie

You must be, I assure you there are no cups, I fitted the no.11, the bit you can see that fits into the frame is the outer race for the bearing, exactly as the bit you can see on the impact is the outer race as well.both are 2 bearings with the crown and steerer alinment 'races' and decorative cap.

Simon

jairaj

Im with Sonic here. The no.11 has clearly got cups from the halfords link and the picture Sonic posted.

it is also very clear on the FSA 2010 headset manual that the no.11 has cups.

http://www.bokhoven.de/downloads/anleitungen-und-downloads/FSA_Steuersaetze_2010.pdf

anjs

I think what you are call outer races are what every one else are calling cups

The Rookie

Well your talking hogwash, it has no frickin cups I've fitted 2 of the bloody things, what inserts into the frame is the outer race of the bearing, nothing goes into or can be removed from it, why don't you read what I posted insted of telling me you can't see in the photo!

Its just like the integrated one in this , a bearing at each end, the crown 'race' (actually not a race as the bearing doesn't run on it) and the same for the top plus decorative cap.

If you look at the link YOU PROVIDED at the no11 (page9), you'll see the 2 bearings are one piece, consisting of the 'cup'/outer race, balls/cage and inner all coming as one assembly FGS, not like the multi piece No.10, so thanks for proving me right and you wrong!

A race on a bearing is what the bearings (ball/roller/cone) run on, where it is a like a traditional headset and is cup shaped it can be called a cup and you put the bearings in it, where the bearing is a single part (that is you don't assemble it, as its pre-assembled) its just a race, in that respect the FSA 11 is exactly like the Impact.

Simon

anjs

Well there is no pleasing some people

jairaj

anjs wrote:

I think what you are call outer races are what every one else are calling cups

Yep I think this is what is happening. Im not an mech engineer so I don't know what the correct terminology is. Im just going on what I've learnt through reading manuals and books.

The text in the FSA manual I linked too has the no.11 headset in the "with cups" section so I was going along with that. Apologies if I've got it wrong and caused confusion.

The Rookie

anjs wrote:

Well there is no pleasing some people

I'd already said 3 times there were no cups, arguing when he didn't understand wasn't helping me to answer my original question at all, not withstanding that as 10 and 11 are interchangeable then it doesn't actually matter of course.

Simon

supersonic

They are not interchangable, or at least I would not risk it. Headtubes are machined to take very specific headset standards and swaying from them can cause problems. I wasn't aware your bike/bikes is/are the hiddenset standard.

allen.coulson

Are you a fruitcake or a cupcake?

supersonic

Looking at ther FSA link, you can see the measurements:

The 11N has a bearing OD of 44mm. The Impact is the 41.8mm campy standard. Are definitely not interchangable, one is Zerostack internal, the other Hiddenset integrated.

The Rookie

OK thanks SS, I was under the impression the semi-integrated was 41.8mm for some reason, if that's the case it certainly won't fit!

AllenC - no cups, so must be a fruitcake!

Simon

supersonic

Which bike is it for?

nicklouse

just to clear up the 11 has cups that are the races just like a cheap external headset has press fit cups that the balls run on.

you need a Semi integrated/internal/Zero stack headset. as Sonic has already said.

The Rookie

Oh god no.....the no 10 has cups like a cheap external, the no11 does not they are cartridge bearings with the outer race being formed in a similar shape to a cup to fit in the frame, the only way to replace it IS with a new headset, it actually runs fine, it just looks shite as the outer facing bits are all rusty, so if I can't use the pretty nearly new lightweight Impact I'll wait until I have a problem!

Simon

anjs

You dont seem to understand cartridge bearings still sit in cups that are pressed internally into the frame with the 11

nicklouse

anjs wrote:

You dont seem to understand cartridge bearings still sit in cups that are pressed internally into the frame with the 11

Nooo there is no cartridge bearing in the 11 it is the cup is the race just like a cheap external headset with caged balls.

anjs

Ah right see now they are semi cartridge bearing so the cup form the outer face. Either way it still has cups in mine and FSA view

The Rookie

nicklouse wrote:

anjs wrote:

You dont seem to understand cartridge bearings still sit in cups that are pressed internally into the frame with the 11

Nooo there is no cartridge bearing in the 11 it is the cup is the race just like a cheap external headset with caged balls.

Nick I assure you it is nothing of the sort, for each bearing there is a single cartridge of outer (that presses into the frame) bearing and inner, it comes pre assembled and can only be split with a hammer and chisel (well maybe some other way, but its not designed or meant to be split) I dod have 2 one on each carrera and installed them both.

Page number6 in http://www.bokhoven.de/downloads/anleit ... e_2010.pdf as parts 4 described by FSA as 'semi cartridge' but you can see each bearing is a single assembly that goes straight into the frame, NO CUP.

Simon

supersonic

Did they press into the head tube, or drop in?

The Rookie

Press fit.

I don't fit a cup and drop a bearing in, the bearing goes into the parent metal of the frame as one piece (each end of the tube) and then I just have the centering collars (not strictly races as the bearings don't race on them!) each end and a decorative cap.

Simon

nicklouse

again it is an internal/semi integrated/Zero stack headset with cups.

but as the cheep shit headset that was fitted and linked to has caged ball bearings and the cup is the race it comes as one unit .

if it had cartridge bearings and it would have separate cups that the bearings sat in.

the main principle that you are missing is that what stops the headset disappearing in the headtube. is the lip on the cup. internal use a machined chamfer in the head stub to position and locate the bearing.

you need to read the many many links on here like the headset standards in the FAQs or read the FSA headset book in the tech links above.

and then go and get an Fing internal/semi integrated/Zero stack headset

end of topic.

PS if you read what you linked to it even says it is an internal/semi integrated/Zero stack headset

Page number6 in http://www.bokhoven.de/downloads/anleit ... e_2010.pdf as parts 4 described by FSA as 'semi cartridge' but you can see each bearing is a single assembly that goes straight into the frame, NO CUP.

Like I said the cup is the race.

The Rookie

Nick, thanks I figured what type of headset it is, you'll note I've never contested that, but it aint got a cup to put bearings in has it and FSA call it 'semi cartridge' its not an open cup like cheap externals. On that basis I'm not sure why you call it a cup (open top, put stuff in)........but at least I now get what I've got which didn't appear to be the case as you talked about putting a caged bearing in the cup which clearly I couldn't do!

Simon

The Big Cheese

nicklouse

The Beginner wrote:

Nick, thanks I figured what type of headset it is, you'll note I've never contested that, but it aint got a cup to put bearings in has it and FSA call it 'semi cartridge' its not an open cup like cheap externals. On that basis I'm not sure why you call it a cup (open top, put stuff in)........but at least I now get what I've got which didn't appear to be the case as you talked about putting a caged bearing in the cup which clearly I couldn't do!

Simon

it is as I have kept on saying an Internal/semi integrated/zero stack headset.

it has got cups just as a standard headset has got cups.

if you want to know how to get into your post a pic. there will be a retainer.

The Rookie

I know how to post pics thanks Nick!

And yes I know the type of bearing is internal/semi-integrated...

I think we'll have to agree to disagree as to whether it has cups or not, I say it doesn't as there is no cup a bearing drops into (cartridge or loose ball or caged ball), it is strictly a cartridge bearing by definaition (it comes as a pre-assembeld package) but have refrained from arguing that as most people think of cartridge as seperately replaceable cartridge.

Simon