Pulled over by the police for obstructing traffic this AM

paulintheforest

On my ride in this morning there is a 400m section of road that starts wide, narrows then opens out again. Picture here
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=google+ ... CBwQ8gEwAA

It's not clear from the picture but at points the white line is against the gutter and at other points there is a bit of space between the white line and edge of the road. Previously when I have tried to ride inside the white line I have found that at the point where the road narrows I have a stream of cars overtaking me and cannot get back into the stream of traffic. After the narrow point the road widens and I move to the left with plenty of space for everyone to overtake. I was riding at somewhere around 15 mph as with 21 miles behind me that is the best speed I can manage.

This morning, just after a viking stationery van tried to knock me off on this section I was riding along somewhere between the white line and the left tyre track on the road when a police 4 x 4 came up alongside me and told me I was riding too far out and that I should move over. I didn't point out the fact that their front wheel was about 6cm from my handlebar which was not a safe distance, however I did point out that according to cyclecraft my positioning was about right. At this point the officer driving shouted at me to pull over, which I did once the road was wide enough for traffic to pass us both, about by the junction on the picture.

We debated the point for a couple of minutes with him telling me that although it might say that in cycle craft on this occasion I was wrong. His debating points were along the lines of "how many of these car drivers are likely to have read cyclecraft?" It's 8.30 in the morning and people are trying to get to work, therefore it is unsafe for you to be in their way"

Looking to move the debate on as I was not going to concede that I thought he was right I asked him how I should position myself on the 60 mph A35 I had just ridden along. His response was that it was not for him to tell me how to ride or where I should position myself. He also said that if I felt the driver of the Viking stationery van cut me up then I should take it up with the company not him!
The officer claimed to be tactical cycling certified, advanced driving and rides 22 hours per week at 24 - 25 mph so knows what he is talking about.

So looking for independent unbiased opinion from the world I thought I would post on here and invite feedback. Where should I be positioning myself? The hedges on streetview have grown out a bit since the picture was taken and the road between the painted white lines is about a car width wide so you cannot go past a cyclist without crossing the white lines, the google cameras seem to be a bit wide angle and make it look a bit more spacious than it is in reality.

And the best part of it was this happened 200m from my work so lots of people enquiring as to why the police were talking to me this morning.

El Gordo

Hard to judge from Google but it looks like plenty of space for a bike and a car to me. It's always going to be a judgement call though and you may err on the cautious side whilst many drivers (police included) are confident to cut it a bit closer.

Generally I'll happily 'take the lane' briefly to get past parked cars, traffic islands or roundabouts but if it's a long stretch of narrow road I'll squeeze up and try and let the cars past even it that means pulling into a passing point and waiting. There's no point in annoying people in the name of asserting your right to be on the road.

king_jeffers

El Gordo wrote:

There's no point in annoying people in the name of asserting your right to be on the road.

Agree - I would have attempted to pull over a bit. Especially at that time of the day, although you would think the police had more important things to deal with :roll:

wizzlebanger

His response was that it was not for him to tell me how to ride or where I should position myself

Yet he pulled you over to tell you how to ride and how to position yourself so you didn't stop people getting to work???? I hope you informed him that it was your intention to get to work as safely as possible also.

Underscore

paulintheforest wrote:

It's not clear from the picture but at points the white line is against the gutter and at other points there is a bit of space between the white line and edge of the road.

I can't see enough from the satellite view to offer any judgment or advice (for what little that might be worth anyway...) but technically the white line is the edge of the road. A cyclist was taken to court recently for obstructing traffic, with the police saying that he should have been cycling to the left of the white line. The case was thrown out as the area of tarmac to the left of the line is not, technically, part of the road so it cannot be required for someone to cycle there.

Of course, I'm still happy to use that part of the surface if it eases other people's journeys without compromising my safety.

_

fnegroni

paulintheforest wrote:

This morning <snip> I was riding along somewhere between the white line and the left tyre track on the road when a police 4 x 4 came up alongside me and told me I was riding too far out and that I should move over. <snip>

The police officer in charge is an idiot.

I would have, personally, accused him of impersonating an officer, of having stolen a vehicle and uniform, and dialled 999.

I would have also taken his name down and if proven to be an officer, NAMED AND SHAMED!

It does not matter how many cars are behind you. It is *their* problem they drive a vehicle that *pollutes* and *takes up valuable space on the road*.

If they are in such a rush, it's their problem, not yours.

This has nothing to do with asserting your right on the road. It has to do with safety.

bails87

I agree, shocking behaviour from the officer. Plain wrong, and contradictory at the same time.

He tells you where to ride (obviously a police matter) then says it's not his job to tell you where to ride, then tells you where to ride again and then says that the behaviour of drivers is nothing to do with the traffic police?!

Pratt.

alfablue

make a complaint. With traffic police with these attitudes we don't stand a chance of fair treatment.

alfablue

King Jeffers wrote:

El Gordo wrote:

There's no point in annoying people in the name of asserting your right to be on the road.

Agree - I would have attempted to pull over a bit. Especially at that time of the day, although you would think the police had more important things to deal with :roll:

This is the problem, because Joe/Jane Bloggs the car driver left for work too late to get there on time without dangerous encroachment and overtakes on cyclists (and most likely speeding), the default view is therefore that the cyclist should get in the gutter.

If the incident was in the narrow section of the road that is for 2 way traffic then there is only space for one road user between the white lines, whetehr that vehicle be a bike or a car. If you hug the gutter you encourage the dangerous overtake.

alfablue

King Jeffers wrote:

El Gordo wrote:

There's no point in annoying people in the name of asserting your right to be on the road.

Agree - I would have attempted to pull over a bit. Especially at that time of the day, although you would think the police had more important things to deal with :roll:

This is the problem, because Joe/Jane Bloggs the car driver left for work too late to get there on time without dangerous encroachment and overtakes on cyclists (and most likely speeding), the default view is therefore that the cyclist should get in the gutter.

If the incident was in the narrow section of the road that is for 2 way traffic then there is only space for one road user between the white lines, whether that vehicle be a bike or a car. If you hug the gutter you encourage the dangerous overtake.

alfablue

King Jeffers wrote:

El Gordo wrote:

There's no point in annoying people in the name of asserting your right to be on the road.

Agree - I would have attempted to pull over a bit. Especially at that time of the day, although you would think the police had more important things to deal with :roll:

This is the problem, because Joe/Jane Bloggs the car driver left for work too late to get there on time without dangerous encroachment and overtakes on cyclists (and most likely speeding), the default view is therefore that the cyclist should get in the gutter.

If the incident was in the narrow section of the road that is for 2 way traffic then there is only space for one road user between the white lines, whether that vehicle be a bike or a car. If you hug the gutter you encourage the dangerous overtake (but does not excuse it).

alfablue

King Jeffers wrote:

El Gordo wrote:

There's no point in annoying people in the name of asserting your right to be on the road.

Agree - I would have attempted to pull over a bit. Especially at that time of the day, although you would think the police had more important things to deal with :roll:

This is the problem, because Joe/Jane Bloggs the car driver left for work too late to get there on time without dangerous encroachment and overtakes on cyclists (and most likely speeding), the default view is therefore that the cyclist should get in the gutter.

If the incident was in the narrow section of the road that is for 2 way traffic then there is only space for one road user between the white lines, whether that vehicle be a bike or a car. If you hug the gutter you encourage the dangerous overtake (but does not excuse it).

alfablue

King Jeffers wrote:

El Gordo wrote:

There's no point in annoying people in the name of asserting your right to be on the road.

Agree - I would have attempted to pull over a bit. Especially at that time of the day, although you would think the police had more important things to deal with :roll:

This is the problem, because Joe/Jane Bloggs the car driver left for work too late to get there on time without dangerous encroachment and overtakes on cyclists (and most likely speeding), the default view is therefore that the cyclist should get in the gutter.

If the incident was in the narrow section of the road that is for 2 way traffic then there is only space for one road user between the white lines, whether that road user be a bike or a car. If you hug the gutter you encourage the dangerous overtake (but does not excuse it).

bearfraser

The police obviously hadn't had their daily quota of "Doughnuts".

whitestar1

King Jeffers wrote:

El Gordo wrote:

There's no point in annoying people in the name of asserting your right to be on the road.

Agree - I would have attempted to pull over a bit. Especially at that time of the day, although you would think the police had more important things to deal with :roll:

I agree too. You can't expect to win. I will take center position of the lane only at junctions/lights/roundabout/overtaking parked cars, otherwise I am on the inside - not the gutter. In the case of a narrow two way road I would move into the center.

tomb353

looks like a really strange bit of road to me. The white lines could be confused for a cycle lane, or perhaps markings to encourage cars to park on the pavement. What should be a quiet residential lane has been turned into a one way high speed commuter route. Perhaps worth contacting the local council cycling officer and ask them to get together with the police to improve safety on this bit of road.

CyclingBantam

I agree with most posters on here.

Firstly, if the officer is telling you what he did, I have very little doubt that he does not cycle him self. His claimed speeds alone are ridiculous.

Secondly, you do not have to ride actively trying to get out of peoples way, just in the same way you shouldn't be actively trying to obstruct people.

I find that common sense normally provides what is the correct answer.

The white line signals the edge of the road, therefore, you shouldn't be riding to the left of it. You are allowed to ride oin the road.

Where the lane narrows, if you find cars are squeezing past where it is not safe to either you or them, you should do what is reasonable to make you/them safe and that is to take the lane.

You shouldn't obstruct cars where there is no need. You didn't do that so you have done nothing wrong.

Him telling you that you should get out of their way because they are in a rush is laughable. You should have got him to follow you up to the next junction and complained at the traffic being in your way. Is he going to tell them all to move.

If you can be inclined I would feel free to email/write a letter of complaint. Police shouldn't be advising people absolute rubbish. It helps nobody. What view of cyclists will those drivers have now? They will think 'we shouldn't be on their roads', look, even the police agree with us!!!

jeremyrundle

Again CYLECAM they are only £12 on ebay, you could then have asked the chief constable for HIS opinion, as it is you lose.

SmellTheGlove

I think from personal observation that there are road users e.g. motorists "out there" who believe they cannot cross the solid centre white line under any circumstances. It almost seems in this case like the police are pandering to that view.
I'm guessing you'll be back on the same stretch tomorrow? Hope so and good luck.

AndyManc

alfablue wrote:

King Jeffers wrote:

El Gordo wrote:

There's no point in annoying people in the name of asserting your right to be on the road.

Agree - I would have attempted to pull over a bit. Especially at that time of the day, although you would think the police had more important things to deal with :roll:

This is the problem, because Joe/Jane Bloggs the car driver left for work too late to get there on time without dangerous encroachment and overtakes on cyclists (and most likely speeding), the default view is therefore that the cyclist should get in the gutter.

If the incident was in the narrow section of the road that is for 2 way traffic then there is only space for one road user between the white lines, whether that vehicle be a bike or a car. If you hug the gutter you encourage the dangerous overtake.

100% , there are a number of cyclists that continue to have an inferiority complex and don't believe that they have as much right to on the road as other vehicles .

They are their own worst enemy and their attitudes are a detriment to the whole cycling community .

As far as the lying bull*hiting cop is concerned I would have taken his details and made a formal complaint.


.

jonny_trousers

No idea about your personal situation, but you have to remind yourself that police officers aren't always the sharpest tools in the box (just think about those who you were at school with who ended up joining the force). The problem is they often feel they have to save face when shown up for being in the wrong and will try to baffle you with all kinds of nonsense. Nothing to do with cycling, but I once had a policeman who I stood up to say "Well I can always take you back to the station to discuss it further" when he had no decent argument." Good on you for standing up for yourself! Try not to wind up fellow road users, but don't put yourself in danger just so that they can arrive at the next set of traffic lights eight seconds earlier than they would have done otherwise.

al2098

Wow
This thread seems to be populated with a bunch of police hating lefties.. I quote;
"This morning, just after a viking stationery van tried to knock me off on this section"
Does anyone maybe consider that the officer was just giving this fellow some advice to maybe save his neck.?
So what if he has some 'right' The idiot in the Viking van will run him over with his *ucking rights and say it was an accident. Then what.
Your DEAD.
What about the white line now?
Going to complain about the police just having a conversation with you?
As far as the police officer being an idiot, I figure you lot are some top idiots..

Berk Bonebonce

tomb353 wrote:

looks like a really strange bit of road to me. The white lines could be confused for a cycle lane, or perhaps markings to encourage cars to park on the pavement. What should be a quiet residential lane has been turned into a one way high speed commuter route. Perhaps worth contacting the local council cycling officer and ask them to get together with the police to improve safety on this bit of road.

Perceptive comments.

The problem is the road, in as much as the highways authority have made a cack-handed job at traffic calming. The white lines are meant to reduce road width and to prevent overtaking, but the road is plainly unsuitable for this style of traffic calming on account of its variable width.

Initialised

Personally I wouldn't bother argueing the pint with the officer on the scene. It'll only wind them up. Just take his names and badge number and the VIN of the car. Make a note of the time and date and put a complaint into the police complaints commission, the council and highways for the road.

If you are holding up traffic by riding a bike within 1m of the edge then the road is badly designed.

From the motorists point of view it's all your fault though, obviously. But there are two main errors motorists have when dealing with cyclists. Being too cautious and holding everyone else up despite there being plenty of room or doing the opposite and overtaking when there's not enough room. In my experience women do the former and men do the latter. Evolutionary Psychology would flag this up as a gender difference based on skewed risk assessments and body image dismorphia being projected onto their vehicle

al2098

[/quote]Make a note of the time and date and put a complaint into the police complaints commission, the council and highways for the road.

What exactly are you going to complain about with reference to the police?
That he spoke to you? Gave you some advice you don't agree with?
Anyone maybe consider the Cyclist is being a bit self absorbed. ?

al2098

You get the idea

bails87

al2098 wrote:

Wow
This thread seems to be populated with a bunch of police hating lefties.. I quote;
"This morning, just after a viking stationery van tried to knock me off on this section"
Does anyone maybe consider that the officer was just giving this fellow some advice to maybe save his neck.?
So what if he has some 'right' The idiot in the Viking van will run him over with his *ucking rights and say it was an accident. Then what.
Your DEAD.
What about the white line now?
Going to complain about the police just having a conversation with you?
As far as the police officer being an idiot, I figure you lot are some top idiots..

How ridiculous...

al2098

"How ridiculous"
And? anything constructive to add?
Bails87 are you saying you disagree?
Do you really think the police are going to take such a complaint in any way serious?
"How ridiculous..? Add something remotely intelligent to your comment.

paulintheforest

Thanks all for your opinions

al2098, the police conversation had nothing to do with the Viking stationery van, he claimed he had not seen it and I should take it up with the company as he was not interested.

Having read through the thread I think I was still in the right, however I will take a closer look tomorrow when I walk that section (I only ride it once a week, 44 mile return is just too much for me more than that) to see whether I can think about my positioning and whether I need as much space, but I definitely won't be diving into the gutter to appease his view. The frustrating thing is that the traffic was flowing past me and carrying on up the road, so it wasn't as if I was blocking the road, but I was maintaining a distance from the kerb.

Tomb353 and Berk Bonebonce you are right about it being poor road design, if it didn't narrow so much at about 200m I would be able to hang more to the left and make it easier for the traffic to get past, but I have to defend my position to avoid getting squeezed at the natural pinch point.

As to the suggestions I should make a complaint against the officer, I'm going to spend today ranting about it then move on tomorrow. To be honest if I had just meekly apologised and moved over everybody could have gone about their business, but once I argued the point he had to assert his authority. Had I been belligerent I can see it would have created a situation where nobody could back down. I think he realised he was not on the firmest argument because his 4x4 had at least two people in it but we had our conversation behind the truck out of their sight and earshot. I listened to his opinion, explained to him why I thought I was doing the right thing, he told me I was wrong and I moved the conversation on to save arguing until he told me to be on my way. It annoyed me but not worth getting too hung up on. Considering half the people I work with drove past while this was going on it at least made me the subject of the office gossip for the day.

snailracer

al2098 wrote:

Wow
This thread seems to be populated with a bunch of police hating lefties.. I quote;
"This morning, just after a viking stationery van tried to knock me off on this section"
Does anyone maybe consider that the officer was just giving this fellow some advice to maybe save his neck.?
So what if he has some 'right' The idiot in the Viking van will run him over with his *ucking rights and say it was an accident. Then what.
Your DEAD.
What about the white line now?
Going to complain about the police just having a conversation with you?
As far as the police officer being an idiot, I figure you lot are some top idiots..

In suggesting the OP ride in the gutter, the policeman was giving bad advice that is more likely to get the OP run over. Therefore, the policeman is the idiot in this tale.

alfablue

al2098 wrote:

Wow
This thread seems to be populated with a bunch of police hating lefties.. I quote;
"This morning, just after a viking stationery van tried to knock me off on this section"
Does anyone maybe consider that the officer was just giving this fellow some advice to maybe save his neck.?
So what if he has some 'right' The idiot in the Viking van will run him over with his *ucking rights and say it was an accident. Then what.
Your DEAD.
What about the white line now?
Going to complain about the police just having a conversation with you?
As far as the police officer being an idiot, I figure you lot are some top idiots..

Police hating lefties? What a stupid and ill informed comment. You may be a very experienced cyclist but your attitude suggests otherwise. It is NOTHING to do with rights, its toi do with human behaviour, if you hug the kerb it is an invitation to overtake when unsafe, if you take a more assertive position on the road, you will p*ss off the odd d*ckhead, but you are far less likely to get clipped or knocked off or treated like you have no right to be there.

My politics are my private affair, but on balance I am a supporter of the police and the job they do for us. In this case they let their profession down, and they cause me concern that their attitudes are ill-informed and likely to endanger the second most vulnerable road users. They are also likely to make ill informed judgements of fault in car/cyclist collisions.