Erythropoietin

jim453

To what extent can this stuff turn an also-ran journeyman into the kind of rider who eats high Alpine cols for breakfast?

Would an average rider notice the effects?

Just interested you understand.

Doobz

You mean Alpen Cereal for Breakfast really.. don't you?

LangerDan

jim453 wrote:

To what extent can this stuff turn an also-ran journeyman into the kind of rider who eats high Alpine cols for breakfast?

Would an average rider notice the effects?

Just interested you understand.

See for yourself

jim453

Interesting article. Pretty effective gear then.

shockedsoshocked

In simple terms, it appears to be the less natural talent you have, the more effective the response to PEDs.

cal_stewart

hgh sounds good. my scars on my face my benefit. was taking to a doctor about hgh and what he said was he would not touch it as it will makes any problems in your body bigger. maybe this is what happened to lance?

B3rnieMac

guy in my lab did his postdoc with one of the founders of amgen.......im sure i could get some on discount....

jerry3571

Before trying EPO maybe try the Oxygen Tent which a few years back was about £7000 according to rumours. This turned a guy from doing a 25 mile TT in a flat hour to 54 minutes so not too bad for a struggling 2nd Cat.
You almost pay £7000 for a bike these days so a good investment.
Not sure what happens if the Oxygen Tank runs out though??? :? Tricky one.

-Jerry

afx237vi

Oxygen tents are banned too, aren't they?

shockedsoshocked

jerry3571 wrote:

Before trying EPO maybe try the Oxygen Tent which a few years back was about £7000 according to rumours. This turned a guy from doing a 25 mile TT in a flat hour to 54 minutes so not too bad for a struggling 2nd Cat.
You almost pay £7000 for a bike these days so a good investment.
Not sure what happens if the Oxygen Tank runs out though??? :? Tricky one.

-Jerry

EPO can be cheaper and you'll almost certainly get a physiological response from the user.

Simulating altitude (or being at altitude) may not do this.

Edit: @AFX in Italy I think?

GyatsoLa

I've cycled at very high altitude (4-5000 metres) in the Himalaya for 2+ weeks on three occasions - according to a doctor friend of mine my haematocrit count would have been massively boosted, probably over the 50% mark, similar to the effect of a few doses of EPO.

I didn't do any scientific measurements, but for a few days on coming back down to a lower level, I felt genuinely supercharged. It was a weird sensation because it was almost like my legs were arguing with my brain - my brain saying 'hey, you've been spinning so much, you must be tired', while my legs were saying 'what are you talking about, I'm fine!' I was riding a full loaded touring bike with two other riders one time up an 800 metre climb in Nepal after dropping down from the Himalayan plateau and we were just looking at each other in disbelief at how easy it felt.

More recently, I've done blood tests and my natural haem count is on the low side - which is my excuse for being so damned slow normally. It is interesting though that on one of the trips i did, the riders I was with were generally stronger than me to start with, and were definitely stronger than me riding up at altitude, but when we dropped back down again, I was, for once, able to push past them.

Its not scientific I know, but it made me realise just what a huge benefit EPO must be to some riders. I suspect that some riders with a naturally high haem count might not benefit so much, at least not without pushing themselves into very dangerous territory (i.e. 'Mr 60%').

IanLD

Paula Radcliffe and Lance share hyberbaric tents in common. Don't know how long Paula used them for but Lance added them to his aresenal of 'assistance'.

Banned in Italy AFAIK, but not sure about elsewhere.

cal_stewart

http://www.higherpeak.com/package-sleep.html

jerry3571

Paula Radcliffe lives in a place I stayed once called Font Romeau in the Pyrenees. I think it's about 1800m up. I think other UK runners have done the same by living in that locality with better results which seemed to have followed.

-Jerry

PS- 2 weeks at the sierra nevada ski station is one way of getting your TT times down and also get a good tan. Train on the lower roads around Granada then sleep in the clouds.
Can't fail unless you book your room at the Hotel Santa Cruz 2 which I did and was only half way up the mountain; dopey git!! :roll: I got scared the hell out of by Mountain sheep dogs there and they are nasty and as big as Bears; not good and so avoid the Goats/Sheep at all cost!!
I should have tried Hotel Mont Blanc at 2500m instead, nevermind!

cajun_cyclist

jerry3571 wrote:

Paula Radcliffe lives in a place I stayed once called Font Romeau in the Pyrenees. I think it's about 1800m up. I think other UK runners have done the same by living in that locality with better results which seemed to have followed.

-Jerry

PS- 2 weeks at the sierra nevada ski station is one way of getting your TT times down and also get a good tan. Train on the lower roads around Granada then sleep in the clouds.
Can't fail unless you book your room at the Hotel Santa Cruz 2 which I did and was only half way up the mountain; dopey git!! :roll: I got scared the hell out of by Mountain sheep dogs there and they are nasty and as big as Bears; not good and so avoid the Goats/Sheep at all cost!!
I should have tried Hotel Mont Blanc at 2500m instead, nevermind!

.

Paula Radcliffe also spent a lot of time, high elevation, Albuquerque, New Mexico, Kenyan runners do the same.

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=13819

You never know who you might run into in Albuquerque -- a speeding Paula Radcliffe, or an even speedier coyote.

South of Colorado, I guess Hamilton may have gone some to University of Colorado, I think he skied even at first for their team.

inkyfingers

I spent a couple of months living at high altitude when I was 18, when I came home I seemed to be able to run twice as far as before, it was great. Sadly it didn't last!

shockedsoshocked

GyatsoLa wrote:

Its not scientific I know, but it made me realise just what a huge benefit EPO must be to some riders. I suspect that some riders with a naturally high haem count might not benefit so much, at least not without pushing themselves into very dangerous territory (i.e. 'Mr 60%').

Pretty much exactly how it works.

fatboyslim.

I have to have regular hormone injections that prevent the production of testosterone (won't bore you with the why). No testosterone affects the production of red blood cells, so my haematocrit is around 35%. A few years ago, i had a break from the treatment for a year. Haematocrit rose to its natural level of 45%. After that, everything felt so much easier on the bike. Speed up 20% and it often felt like there was no chain. Also my testosterone levels went back to normal so i was much more determined/aggressive on the bike. Absolutely loved it. Unfortunately had to go back on the treatment. After a few weeks my haematocrit was back to 35%,and i was off the back of every ride. Hills were hard as hell. Thought about giving up, but wife talked me out of it ... thank goodness.

cajun_cyclist

Anyway you can get a jump on the competition, someone will do it, not everyone imho.

About 2 weeks ago, some player, I forget who exactly, was saying they were injected with a yellow liquid at Arsenal.

---

But coming out in the last 2 days about Maradona saying the Albiceleste, Argentina doped confirmed the worst of what one would suspect at least with some teams.

Former Australia captain Paul Wade said he felt cheated after Diego Maradona alleged Argentine players took drugs prior to a match in 1993.

http://www.soccerway.com/news/2011/May/ ... rug-claim/

Now, there's little reason to doubt the '78 World Cup champions, Argentina may well have doped as they were long rumoured to.

Some study and coming from Germany itself said the long rumoured doping of the 1954 team was so. I'm sure some might still argue against it and it's not my aim to casts dispersions on such.

Zidane and that team in '06 in the World Cup and the way some of those guys came from Real Madrid, at least Zidane did and he made some fantastic plays. And in turn on that, of course in the past few months, Barcelona were accused.

It just shows the suspicions now are widespread in football in some countries at least.

RichN95.

cajun_cyclist wrote:

About 2 weeks ago, some player, I forget who exactly, was saying they were injected with a yellow liquid at Arsenal.
not my aim to casts dispersions on such.

It was Paul Merson, so it was probably brandy.

disgruntledgoat

Juve's team doctor was convicted of doping players "without their knowledge" in 2004... Becuase of course, were I a top class footballer I wouldn't question for a second what the regular course of injections I was getting were.

Gavin Cook

You can stay at 2000m altitude at the parador next to El Teide Tenerife like some pro teams do.
http://www.paradores-spain.com/spain/pcanadasteide.html

shockedsoshocked

fatboyslim. wrote:

I have to have regular hormone injections that prevent the production of testosterone (won't bore you with the why). No testosterone affects the production of red blood cells, so my haematocrit is around 35%. A few years ago, i had a break from the treatment for a year. Haematocrit rose to its natural level of 45%. After that, everything felt so much easier on the bike. Speed up 20% and it often felt like there was no chain. Also my testosterone levels went back to normal so i was much more determined/aggressive on the bike. Absolutely loved it. Unfortunately had to go back on the treatment. After a few weeks my haematocrit was back to 35%,and i was off the back of every ride. Hills were hard as hell. Thought about giving up, but wife talked me out of it ... thank goodness.

If you don't mind me asking, how come? Quite interested as I know testosterone use can increase RBC count, but didn't realise inhibition could decrease it?

Tusher

Jeannie Longo lives at altitude.

GyatsoLa

cajun_cyclist wrote:

A
About 2 weeks ago, some player, I forget who exactly, was saying they were injected with a yellow liquid at Arsenal.

I can't find the link to it, but a few years back the Guardian reported that Wenger alleged that at least one player from Italy had an elevated haematocrit level which couldn't be natural when he arrived at Arsenal. He said he believed the player that he had not knowingly taken anything, so he assumed he was given something by his previous club. Wenger didn't name the player, but in the context it was pretty obvious he was referring to a certain very famous French striker.

Zidane used to openly talk about his 'blood treatments' at some place in Switzerland. Some level of blood doping seems to be considered essentially permitted in football.

I think it was openly admitted that the world cup winning side in 1954 used amphetamines. But I think the use of amphetamines was almost universal in many sports in the post war years, they were cheap and easily available. In the 1980s it was apparently something of a joke in the French league as to the wild eyed look on Marseilles players due to the various stimulants they were given before matches. Tony Cascarino referred to this in his autobiography if I remember right.

No_Ta_Doctor

GyatsoLa wrote:

cajun_cyclist wrote:

A
About 2 weeks ago, some player, I forget who exactly, was saying they were injected with a yellow liquid at Arsenal.

I can't find the link to it, but a few years back the Guardian reported that Wenger alleged that at least one player from Italy had an elevated haematocrit level which couldn't be natural when he arrived at Arsenal. He said he believed the player that he had not knowingly taken anything, so he assumed he was given something by his previous club. Wenger didn't name the player, but in the context it was pretty obvious he was referring to a certain very famous French striker.

Zidane used to openly talk about his 'blood treatments' at some place in Switzerland. Some level of blood doping seems to be considered essentially permitted in football.

I think it was openly admitted that the world cup winning side in 1954 used amphetamines. But I think the use of amphetamines was almost universal in many sports in the post war years, they were cheap and easily available. In the 1980s it was apparently something of a joke in the French league as to the wild eyed look on Marseilles players due to the various stimulants they were given before matches. Tony Cascarino referred to this in his autobiography if I remember right.

Either a striker or a combative midfielder, as I recall...

Wenger is also on record as saying that some of his players haven't been tested for five years, which is shocking.

In football it's actually against the rules for teams to do drug tests on their players, as they might find something then try and keep the player out of the testers radar (drop into reserves etc).

In the early Wenger years at Arsenal the team used creatine, which was a legal supplement, but he stopped it as he believed that players became too bulky and suffered muscle and ligament injuries because of it. I always thought that was an oral supplement, but maybe it was injected.

Of course, Paul Merson, much as I love him, has a reputation for talking b*lls and over the years has had a fair few expensive habits to pay for...

fatboyslim.

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

fatboyslim. wrote:

I If you don't mind me asking, how come? Quite interested as I know testosterone use can increase RBC count, but didn't realise inhibition could decrease it?

.

Prostate cancer.

cajun_cyclist

GyatsoLa wrote:

cajun_cyclist wrote:

A
About 2 weeks ago, some player, I forget who exactly, was saying they were injected with a yellow liquid at Arsenal.

I can't find the link to it, but a few years back the Guardian reported that Wenger alleged that at least one player from Italy had an elevated haematocrit level which couldn't be natural when he arrived at Arsenal. He said he believed the player that he had not knowingly taken anything, so he assumed he was given something by his previous club. Wenger didn't name the player, but in the context it was pretty obvious he was referring to a certain very famous French striker.

Zidane used to openly talk about his 'blood treatments' at some place in Switzerland. Some level of blood doping seems to be considered essentially permitted in football.

I think it was openly admitted that the world cup winning side in 1954 used amphetamines. But I think the use of amphetamines was almost universal in many sports in the post war years, they were cheap and easily available. In the 1980s it was apparently something of a joke in the French league as to the wild eyed look on Marseilles players due to the various stimulants they were given before matches. Tony Cascarino referred to this in his autobiography if I remember right.

Right, the other Kimmage book "Full Time".

I see the name of the player has been mentioned.

Thanks for all the answers.

Some of these players have said before and it might sound bogus but in fact, Kimmage mentions how he use to take vitamin C, not sure if he took it in injections, I know he mentioned he'd keep C tablets in his jersey pockets.

If Paul Merson says an injection of yellow liquid, that could sound like vitamin C.

Most people take the citrus based vitamin C, vitamin C as Ascorbic Acid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascorbic_acid . Esther C, that's a different type of vitamin C though it still is. A big ingredient in FRS which is the energy drink Lance Armstrong has advertised is Quercitin, it's probably the ingredient that will give you a rush. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercetin

But like Esther C, I'm not sure if the sensation is all that positive. Some B vitamins, etc. are known to get you going as well.

I read the other day about a cyclist who talked about the healing powers of vitamin C and that is probably correct but he said he upped it from a regular day amount of around 1000 mgs to 5800 mgs if he was trying to recover from a long ride. I'm not sure about that. I'd question absorption and digestibility on that. I in fact, tried to follow his advise. A bit hard on the system actually, :twisted: You'd probably need to do it after doing a century or something.

disgruntledgoat

Didn't Chelsea get told it was fine to draw blood from a player in order to seperate the white cells to be reinjected into injured areas?

RichN95.

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Didn't Chelsea get told it was fine to draw blood from a player in order to seperate the white cells to be reinjected into injured areas?

Yeah, "blood spinning". It was allowable at the time. It's banned now, I think.

afx237vi

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Juve's team doctor was convicted of doping players "without their knowledge" in 2004... Becuase of course, were I a top class footballer I wouldn't question for a second what the regular course of injections I was getting were.

It's probably true though, especially after you read articles like this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_a ... 670679.ece

...or this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 28553.html

Cycling fans read stories about horse placenta treatments and their bullsh*t radar goes off straight away, but if you come from a sport where the doping culture is not quite as deeply entrenched, you're probably just going to go along with whatever works and not worry about how it works.