Commuting speed disparity - dangerous?

lardboy

I had the same thing this morning. I shoulder check, see nothing, then move out to overtake a slow hybrid. As I do so, I get passed by a bloke I hadn't seen, who is so close that he places his hand on my arm and says "Always look behind you first!"

My guess is that he was drafting me so closely that I couldn't see him on a quick shoulder check, and he'd decided to pass at exactly the same time as I did. I ALWAYS do a lifesaver before any manoeuvre, having had it drilled into me after years on a motorbike, so I'm still trying to work out exactly how it could have happened.

I wasn't impressed with him laying hands on me either. Do that to the wrong person and they'll chase you down and deck you.

DonDaddyD

I had two incidents this morning.

Similar to the OP. I'm drifting right to go around a bus. As I look of my shoulder a girl passes me so close I'm sure I could feel her armpit... There was nothing I could have done had we crashed and if we did I would likely have seen 'red'. I get annoyed by cyclists incapable of giving way.

Second incident was the approach to Balham tube, a car turning left, on my left. A coach to my right. A cyclist attempting to undertake me on my inside. Made me realise while we always check the right shoulder sometimes we need to check the left.

jonginge

DonDaddyD wrote:

Second incident was the approach to Balham tube, a car turning left, on my left. A coach to my right. A cyclist attempting to undertake me on my inside. Made me realise while we always check the right shoulder sometimes we need to check the left.

Definitely. There's a lot of undertaking going on in traffic at the moment.

lost_in_thought

DonDaddyD wrote:

I'm drifting right to go around a bus. As I look of my shoulder a girl passes me so close I'm sure I could feel her armpit... There was nothing I could have done had we crashed and if we did I would likely have seen 'red'. I get annoyed by cyclists incapable of giving way.

But in the Highway Code it's you who should have given (and by the sound of it did give) way...

Aidy

lost_in_thought wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

I'm drifting right to go around a bus. As I look of my shoulder a girl passes me so close I'm sure I could feel her armpit... There was nothing I could have done had we crashed and if we did I would likely have seen 'red'. I get annoyed by cyclists incapable of giving way.

But in the Highway Code it's you who should have given (and by the sound of it did give) way...

More to the point, DDD was scalped by a girl?

notsoblue

Robstar24 wrote:

I use a rear view mirror attached to my frame, really good for checking when moving out and around traffic, though the old shoulder check is still a good way of showing other cyclists you may move out.

Thats quite a rare sight actually. You don't happen to commute along the Embankment do you?

squired

Checking over the shoulder is great, when your view isn't blocked. Last night I had a guy who was pretty tall (well over 6ft) riding so close that he was practically touching my back wheel. Behind him there was another cyclist. When I attempted to check over my shoulder I couldn't really see anything because thanks to the two cyclists my view was blocked.

I've recently returned to cycling into London, having spent the last 18 months working at an office in the middle of no-where. On an open road I'm not concerned by other cyclists, even though there are quite a few. When cruising up to traffic bottlenecks or red lights the risks certainly seem higher. People who are slower on an open road seem to be keen to over/undertake, even when there isn't a sufficient gap. People also make sudden movements to the side without looking when it is obvious that they are riding among a large group of cyclists. If anything I've sometimes been backing off those groups on the busier roads as I think they are an accident waiting to happen. One touch of wheels and a dozen people could easily go down (as I saw happen once on Chelsea Bridge).

Robstar24

notsoblue wrote:

Robstar24 wrote:

I use a rear view mirror attached to my frame, really good for checking when moving out and around traffic, though the old shoulder check is still a good way of showing other cyclists you may move out.

Thats quite a rare sight actually. You don't happen to commute along the Embankment do you?

I do, get there about 9am

il_principe

Sewinman wrote:

I am very pleased that cycling is becoming increasingly popular - more cyclists = good. However, it occurred to me today that the large disparity in speed amongst commuting cyclists can be quite dangerous, particularly when using cycle lanes.

An example today: pull away from lights in cycle lane, Boris bike ahead going about 4 miles an hour, I begin to move out to edge of cycle lane to overtake, shoulder check - woooah!, a roadie 1/3rd of a way through overtaking me as I drift into his path on the edge of the cycle lane and line of traffic, pull back in sharply and nearly stack it in to the back of said Boris bike.

It was probably my fault as I should have been more careful, but I find the entire commute a little bit more fraught now the weather is better - largely trying to avoid/overtake considerably slower cyclists. Should the roadie have waited for me to overtake first? Should he have made room for two bikes? Should I indicate every time I overtake? What is the etiquette?

p.s. I recognise I may be that annoying slow cyclist in many cases! I have been twice for Jon Ginge at least.

Was this on Vauxhall Embankment!? Cos a fellow roadie did that to me last night. I'm overtaking him and he pulls out topass a Bobike without as much as a glance over his shoulder. I'd given them as much space as I could without moving out into traffic.

Check before doing anything, just indicating isn't enough.

Sewinman

Not me guv! It was yesterday morning, I think it was near Embankment tube proper....tends to be a bit nightmarish there.

Cafewanda

Greg66 wrote:

Tricky, this.

Perhaps wrongly my view is that the person who can see what is going on should give way (taken from skiing). Bikes don't have mirrors, like cars, and rearward visibility is not easy to come by. So in your example, you assessed what was ahead of you easily, but not what was behind you.

The roadie doing the double overtake ought to have been able to see the Boris and you closing in on the Boris, anticipate that you would pass, and estimate his own closing speed on the two of you. So he's better placed to avoid hitting you than you are to avoid hitting him.

This runs counter to how I'd approach it in a car, where I'd consider the overtaking vehicle has right of way, and pulling out in front of an overtaking vehicle to be in the wrong. But there you go.

None of this obviates the need for a shoulder check, but the shoulder check is for my benefit/safety, rather to ensure I'm not impeding someone else, IMO.

This.

Although, IM limited experience, such cyclists on my commute seem to feel the 'other person' should let him pass as he's not about to slow down/move further out to complete his overtake.

durrin

well, I live in Copenhagen, so the British HC doesn't apply here, and of course we ride on the right, but I want to put my 2 cents in anyway...


1: never, ever undertake. when you are moving into the "non-overtaking lane" you shouldn't have to look to see if someone is undertaking. just like on the highway.
2: the overtaker must ensure there is space, and doesn't get in the way of someone overtaking them.
3: not everyone rides the same speed as you, some are slower, some are faster(I'll bet a lot of us on this forum forget the second one :oops:). deal with it gracefully.

Of course, it's just good sense to be aware of what is happening in front of you when you are overtaking, because god knows lots of people don't follow these principles.

I have a bar-end mirror mounted on all 4 of the bikes I might ride to work. it makes it a lot easier to check, and it is also convenient to be able to see cars overtaking me. often I will drift a bit to the left if I feel they are going to be crowding me when they overtake in a moment, or if I can see it will be unsafe for them to overtake. it's also nice, on country roads in a strong headwind (so you can't hear), to be able to have advance notice of cars overtaking you without shoulder checking every 10 seconds.

it's funny to read some of you saying you don't see any, or see only 5 or 6 cyclists on your commutes, I probably see several thousand, but that's Copenhagen!

shouldbeinbed

I have mirrors too, its not like they're ton weights and cost £££s, and some are actually effective.

It's a choice thing not to have them not a physical impossibility & by the sounds of it you lot in that London could do with giving them a go.

Confusedboy

I have a mirror and would not feel safe riding in urban traffic without one. It seems daft to me that most cyclists do not even consider mirrors when drivers and motorcyclists regard them as essential, which I think they are. You always need to know what is happening behind you in terms of faster traffic which is going to overtake you, and this includes other cyclists. I may have mentioned before that I find other cyclists much more of a thteat than any other sort of road user.

And you still need to check over your shoulder before pulling out to the right, as it re-assures people behind you that you know they are there.

Confusedboy

I have a mirror and would not feel safe riding in urban traffic without one. It seems daft to me that most cyclists do not even consider mirrors when drivers and motorcyclists regard them as essential, which I think they are. You always need to know what is happening behind you in terms of faster traffic which is going to overtake you, and this includes other cyclists. I may have mentioned before that I find other cyclists much more of a thteat than any other sort of road user.

And you still need to check over your shoulder before pulling out to the right, as it re-assures people behind you that you know they are there.