Commuting speed disparity - dangerous?

Sewinman

I am very pleased that cycling is becoming increasingly popular - more cyclists = good. However, it occurred to me today that the large disparity in speed amongst commuting cyclists can be quite dangerous, particularly when using cycle lanes.

An example today: pull away from lights in cycle lane, Boris bike ahead going about 4 miles an hour, I begin to move out to edge of cycle lane to overtake, shoulder check - woooah!, a roadie 1/3rd of a way through overtaking me as I drift into his path on the edge of the cycle lane and line of traffic, pull back in sharply and nearly stack it in to the back of said Boris bike.

It was probably my fault as I should have been more careful, but I find the entire commute a little bit more fraught now the weather is better - largely trying to avoid/overtake considerably slower cyclists. Should the roadie have waited for me to overtake first? Should he have made room for two bikes? Should I indicate every time I overtake? What is the etiquette?

p.s. I recognise I may be that annoying slow cyclist in many cases! I have been twice for Jon Ginge at least.

jonginge

I'm never annoyed by slower cyclists. I do get boxed in sometimes but I suck it up and wait for a clear run to make the pass. I try to employ a certain sang-froid on the commute these days. (The mask does slip sometimes, however)

Edit: Anyway, Sewinman, you're not that slow

UndercoverElephant

Shoulder-check first, them move out.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Tricky, this.

Perhaps wrongly my view is that the person who can see what is going on should give way (taken from skiing). Bikes don't have mirrors, like cars, and rearward visibility is not easy to come by. So in your example, you assessed what was ahead of you easily, but not what was behind you.

The roadie doing the double overtake ought to have been able to see the Boris and you closing in on the Boris, anticipate that you would pass, and estimate his own closing speed on the two of you. So he's better placed to avoid hitting you than you are to avoid hitting him.

This runs counter to how I'd approach it in a car, where I'd consider the overtaking vehicle has right of way, and pulling out in front of an overtaking vehicle to be in the wrong. But there you go.

None of this obviates the need for a shoulder check, but the shoulder check is for my benefit/safety, rather to ensure I'm not impeding someone else, IMO.

clarkey cat

When overtaking a big bunch its worth making a very quick assessment on whether the hybrid in front is just about to overtake the pashley in front of him and, if so, maybe you shouldn't cane it past 6 inches from his shoulder.

The Rookie

100% with Greg66 on this, besides when 2 (or3) cyclists collide like that, everyone is a loser!

Simon

desweller

Ride as you would drive. Do not assume that, if there's a rider behind you, he/she is going to act as you'd expect or like. Always check, always leave a stopping distance (yes, this is mutually exclusive with drafting).

UndercoverElephant

But then, if the roadie had been a car, it's not your responsibility to check? Personally, I think if you're going to overtake, you should check fore and aft.

lost_in_thought

Agree with Greg, the roadie should perhaps have assessed your speed as well as the bobike's and concluded you'd probably try to effect a pass, but I also feel one should always, always shoulder-check before executing any kind of sideways move... as you did, sewinman, so avoiding an accident. On the other hand, if there's such a small gap that any sideways move at all from you would have taken out the roadie, maybe nobody should have been passing the bobike at all!

cjcp

1. Bike in front should always shoulder check (if, for no other reason in London these days, because of the good chance that you could have a fast-moving scooter or motorcyclist in proximity); and

2. Overtaking bike needs to try to anticipate the movement of bikes in front and the space available once the overtaking is complete and adjusting their road position or speed accordingly.

Kieran_Burns

Sorry but if you want to be treated like traffic, act like it.

The HC is very clear on this - when overtaking make sure no one is trying to overtake you at the same time:

162

Before overtaking you should make sure

* the road is sufficiently clear ahead
* road users are not beginning to overtake you
* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake

While the roadie behind has a responsibility to ensure it is safe for HIM to overtake you, you have a responsibility to make sure your overtake manoeuvre is likewise safe.

jzed

Yep -finding the speed disparity become greater and greater (and not down to my fitness improving).

I'm yet to grow fond of CS8 as, whilst it seems to be encouraging more cycling (a good thing), I feel less safe than I did before. In the good'ol'days cyclists kept left and the width of the road meant loads of room to manoeuvre. Now the blue road seems to encourage a ride primary mentality. With only one lane to the right of the cycle area, getting passed is a little scary.

Thinking of heading south of the river at Westminster if it gets any worse.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Sorry but if you want to be treated like traffic, act like it.

The HC is very clear on this - when overtaking make sure no one is trying to overtake you at the same time:

162

Before overtaking you should make sure

* the road is sufficiently clear ahead
* road users are not beginning to overtake you
* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake

While the roadie behind has a responsibility to ensure it is safe for HIM to overtake you, you have a responsibility to make sure your overtake manoeuvre is likewise safe.

Hold on, son.

This, from the man who never sees another cyclist or car on their so-called "commute"?

We're talking real world experience here. In the urban warfare zone. The cut and thrust of battle. The parry and attack of the duel. Etc, etc. etc....

You can't be taught a warrior's instincts from a book! A flimsy paper construct of "rules" and "guidance", formulated into a "code"? Pah! Nonsense for beginners...

bails87

Greg66 wrote:

real world experience here......... In the urban warfare zone. The cut and thrust of battle. The parry and attack of the duel.....a warrior's instincts ......

AndyManc....is that you?

Kieran_Burns

Greg66 wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Sorry but if you want to be treated like traffic, act like it.

The HC is very clear on this - when overtaking make sure no one is trying to overtake you at the same time:

162

Before overtaking you should make sure

* the road is sufficiently clear ahead
* road users are not beginning to overtake you
* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake

While the roadie behind has a responsibility to ensure it is safe for HIM to overtake you, you have a responsibility to make sure your overtake manoeuvre is likewise safe.

Hold on, son.

This, from the man who never sees another cyclist or car on their so-called "commute"?

We're talking real world experience here. In the urban warfare zone. The cut and thrust of battle. The parry and attack of the duel. Etc, etc. etc....

You can't be taught a warrior's instincts from a book! A flimsy paper construct of "rules" and "guidance", formulated into a "code"? Pah! Nonsense for beginners...

I'll have you know I see many more cyclists on my commute at the moment. On some days as many as 5 or even 6.

SimonAH

I'm sure that I remember seeing a bicycle helmet that incorporated a rear view mirror via a sort of periscope arrangement a few years ago?

Sounds like a better and better idea, particularly for the metropolis.

Anyone else recall this?

'course, due to my Flash-like abilities to vibrate my molecules fast enough to pass through solid matter, I don't need a helmet at all.

Pufftmw

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Sorry but if you want to be treated like traffic, act like it.

The HC is very clear on this - when overtaking make sure no one is trying to overtake you at the same time:

162

Before overtaking you should make sure

* the road is sufficiently clear ahead
* road users are not beginning to overtake you
* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake

While the roadie behind has a responsibility to ensure it is safe for HIM to overtake you, you have a responsibility to make sure your overtake manoeuvre is likewise safe.

You can't use "road users are not beginning to overtake you" in a bunch situation where there road users are not in defined lanes. Yes, if I was moving road lane or out across road dividing (dashed) lines but in the case where there is a group of cyclists, the Highway Code does not apply as you are intimating.

Simillarly, the "suitable gap" statement is for the time you are potentially moving out into oncoming traffic and therefore it is paramount that you have enough space to come back in safely and not cause a head on collision.

greg66_tri_v2.0

bails87 wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

real world experience here......... In the urban warfare zone. The cut and thrust of battle. The parry and attack of the duel.....a warrior's instincts ......

AndyManc....is that you?

I suspect AndyManc is disgusted at the proliferation of fair weather cyclists. Insufficiently hardcore, militant, and generally unwilling to kick cars enough.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Sorry but if you want to be treated like traffic, act like it.

The HC is very clear on this - when overtaking make sure no one is trying to overtake you at the same time:

162

Before overtaking you should make sure

* the road is sufficiently clear ahead
* road users are not beginning to overtake you
* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake

While the roadie behind has a responsibility to ensure it is safe for HIM to overtake you, you have a responsibility to make sure your overtake manoeuvre is likewise safe.

Hold on, son.

This, from the man who never sees another cyclist or car on their so-called "commute"?

We're talking real world experience here. In the urban warfare zone. The cut and thrust of battle. The parry and attack of the duel. Etc, etc. etc....

You can't be taught a warrior's instincts from a book! A flimsy paper construct of "rules" and "guidance", formulated into a "code"? Pah! Nonsense for beginners...

I'll have you know I see many more cyclists on my commute at the moment. On some days as many as 5 or even 6.

You know you're not allowed to count the ones that only appear when you look at a shop window when you pass it, right?

PBo

Greg66 wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Sorry but if you want to be treated like traffic, act like it.

The HC is very clear on this - when overtaking make sure no one is trying to overtake you at the same time:

162

Before overtaking you should make sure

* the road is sufficiently clear ahead
* road users are not beginning to overtake you
* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake

While the roadie behind has a responsibility to ensure it is safe for HIM to overtake you, you have a responsibility to make sure your overtake manoeuvre is likewise safe.

Hold on, son.

This, from the man who never sees another cyclist or car on their so-called "commute"?

We're talking real world experience here. In the urban warfare zone. The cut and thrust of battle. The parry and attack of the duel. Etc, etc. etc....

You can't be taught a warrior's instincts from a book! A flimsy paper construct of "rules" and "guidance", formulated into a "code"? Pah! Nonsense for beginners...

I'll have you know I see many more cyclists on my commute at the moment. On some days as many as 5 or even 6.

You know you're not allowed to count the ones that only appear when you look at a shop window when you pass it, right?

And you can only count as one the cyclist who you RLJ to get past 5 times, and he then repeatedly scalps you after the lights have changed

Kieran_Burns

Pufftmw wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Sorry but if you want to be treated like traffic, act like it.

The HC is very clear on this - when overtaking make sure no one is trying to overtake you at the same time:

162

Before overtaking you should make sure

* the road is sufficiently clear ahead
* road users are not beginning to overtake you
* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake

While the roadie behind has a responsibility to ensure it is safe for HIM to overtake you, you have a responsibility to make sure your overtake manoeuvre is likewise safe.

You can't use "road users are not beginning to overtake you" in a bunch situation where there road users are not in defined lanes. Yes, if I was moving road lane or out across road dividing (dashed) lines but in the case where there is a group of cyclists, the Highway Code does not apply as you are intimating.

Simillarly, the "suitable gap" statement is for the time you are potentially moving out into oncoming traffic and therefore it is paramount that you have enough space to come back in safely and not cause a head on collision.

I fundamentally disagree with that sentiment. In a bunch situation it's even more important to ensure you are clear behind before swinging out to overtake; else you cause carnage akin to a peloton crash.

It's simple situational awareness, and a common sense approach to getting past people.

Kieran_Burns

PBo wrote:

And you can only count as one the cyclist who you RLJ to get past 5 times, and he then repeatedly scalps you after the lights have changed

Red light jump?

I can't red light jump.

No lights, red or otherwise in the 12 miles 8)

mudcow007

ever year i do a charity ride that goes from Liverpool to Chester to Liverpool, its a nice 50 odd miles through countryside.

ever single year there are (roadies*) that fly past people as close as humanly possible. its quite nerve racking for me who has been riding for years so all the new riders it must be proper scary! its like they think you shouldnt be on the road let alone in front of them

bad juju!!

i think this year i might presurise my camelbak an squirt any that come close






** im not against roadie riders by the way!!**

DonDaddyD

Greg66 wrote:

Tricky, this.

Perhaps wrongly my view is that the person who can see what is going on should give way (taken from skiing). Bikes don't have mirrors, like cars, and rearward visibility is not easy to come by. So in your example, you assessed what was ahead of you easily, but not what was behind you.

The roadie doing the double overtake ought to have been able to see the Boris and you closing in on the Boris, anticipate that you would pass, and estimate his own closing speed on the two of you. So he's better placed to avoid hitting you than you are to avoid hitting him.

This runs counter to how I'd approach it in a car, where I'd consider the overtaking vehicle has right of way, and pulling out in front of an overtaking vehicle to be in the wrong. But there you go.

None of this obviates the need for a shoulder check, but the shoulder check is for my benefit/safety, rather to ensure I'm not impeding someone else, IMO.

This, always this.

noodles71

I'd always look over my shoulder first because;

#1 - You always look over your shoulder if moving out into the middle of the road or turning right (its called a "lifesaver" for a reason)

#2 - If the guy behind you hits you then it is going to hurt you, him and probably a few others

#3 - Most of us don't have insurance to help pick up the pieces. In the event we did it would probably be a 50/50 apportionment anyway.

So a quick deduction would mean option #1 is far too easy to when compared with doors #2 & #3.

jamm13dodger

Take it from a long time motorcyclist - if you need to keep looking over your shoulder - you're going too slow

SmellTheGlove

As a virtue, I'd rate anticipation above shoulder checking; although I am fully baptised and confirmed in the latter I like to think I'm always cultivating my skills in the former.

rebs

It use to annoy me being held up by slower bikes. But Now I just get on with it its going to happen. Just take it easy when passing wobblers. No need to freak people out.

It helps appreciate the stretches of roads where you can open up the taps or roads where you can try to light up the 30mph slow down signs

Initialised

Threads like this make me miss riding in London, only five cyclists got in my way on the way home tonight, and that's unusually high.

roger_merriman

I see so few bikes, even as I ride from one residential area to another. so i have one half mile stretch where I might meet another bike.

most days I don't.

Robstar24

I use a rear view mirror attached to my frame, really good for checking when moving out and around traffic, though the old shoulder check is still a good way of showing other cyclists you may move out.