Fuel costs

rhext

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Look, road tax has nothing (really) to do with this. Look up there at the top. See where it says what the thread title is? It says (take a deep breath)

FUEL COSTS

Yes, I think we agreed they're not high enough didn't we?

rhext

(worth a try!)

Stevo_666

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Look, road tax has nothing (really) to do with this. Look up there at the top. See where it says what the thread title is? It says (take a deep breath)

FUEL COSTS

Fair point, but some people just had to be put right, I couldn't resist

spongtastic

Part of my job is to purchase huge quantities of diesel for refuse freighters doing 7 mpg so I know how much diesel's going up. We pay £1.10 per litre compared to petrol stations £1.399 a litre here. Don't believe the large haulage companies moaning that they're paying pump price, none of them do, it's only the small and hence more economically vulnerable businesses that do.

Personnaly fuel prices haven't really affected me yet, Fuelly confirmed the Panda's averaging 55.9mpg which on a 40 mile commute stop/starting on country roads followed by the A12/14 isn't to bad. I expect if I was driving something that did 20mpg and cost £140 a time to fill up I'd be a bit narked, but then if it annoyed me that much I'd change the car.

Gizmokev

cooldad wrote:

Gizmokev wrote:

Has anyone looked at these.

www.deverdenorthwales.co.uk

They guarantee a 20% increase in MPG or your money back. I have had it done and got a 35% increase. Works on petrol, diesel and LPG cars.

Apparently the way it works is that it increases the efficiency of the engine to burn all of the fuel you inject into the system, rather than some of it being sent straight out of the exhaust (hence reason for CATs and EGRs)

Have a look and see what you think. It worked for me and many other (by all accounts)

Snake oil. Note no actual scientific proof, independent dyno tests (or any for that matter), just promises and platitudes.
Would breach the first law of thermodynamics (ie will take as much energy to crack water as you could get from the H).
These 'systems' have been around for years under different names.
Some info:
Not scientific but correct non the less http://www.cracked.com/article_16484_6- ... ng_p2.html
Bit more scientific - http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho.shtml
Pretty scientific - http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam.shtml
Some equations - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water

Whilst your point is worthy of note you appear to be missing the point as do all the links you have highlighted. The main thinking behind all the links you have put up is that they think the Hydrogen is used as a fuel to replace petrol/diesel. This is not the case and I will explain in further details exactly how the systems work.

The system does not break the laws of thermodynamics or any other such law of physics....they exist for a reason and to state that they can be broken is merely people not understanding the process of how these systems work....let me explain further.

The cells are connected to the alternator so that when running the cells by process of electrolysis produce HHO/Brown Gas. This is fed into the air intake manifold and hence into the cylinders by process of venturi effect. Essentially all you are doing is giving the air a Hydrogen/Oxygen rich gas to breath.

Now the system does not use the HHO gas to replace fuel in the cylinders or anything like that. Current vehicles on the road are inefficient in their use of fuel. Petrol cars being about 15% thermally efficient and diesels being about 40%....this is why diesels are more frugal with their fuel consumption. Every car on the road today wastes fuel by virtue of the engine design....manufacturer's are currently trying to increase this....and some of the fuel that is injected into the system is simply ejected out of the exhaust as unburnt fuel or hydrocarbons (the thing they test for on your MOT). It is for this reason that CAT's and EGR valves exist. The CAT is there to simply collect it and prevent it all being thrown out the back into the atmosphere and the EGR valve is there to recycle some of the exhaust fumes back into the air intake to try and get a better efficiency from the engine.

Introducing Hydrogen into the air fuel mixture via the HHO units enables the engine to make better use of the fuel being injected into the system. This works because H is a very volatile gas and burns so much quicker than just oxygen. So as you are now getting better burn of the fuel injected you are getting more power (by virtue of the increased amount of fuel being burnt and not being left unburnt) acting on your piston which coverts into more torque via the crank. You can then use this torque to increase your MPG because for a given speed there is a required power demand form the engine. Now a car without HHO units fitted will need a certain amount of fuel to be injected into the system in order to get that power of which some will simply be sent out of the exhaust as unburnt fuel. That same car now fitted with a HHO unit will not need that same amount of fuel to be injected into the system to get the same power because it is not wasting as much....ie it is a more efficient user of the chemical energy.

So the systems do not break any laws of physics as they stand and have stood for over 50 years they simply make the engine a more efficient unit. This is why people see real increases in fuel economy...they also see an increase in torque/power and a reduction in emissions/hydrocarbons.

Quite simple really isnt it..... :shock:

Anonymous

I think people are expecting that the extra load on the alternator will outweigh any benefits.

Gizmokev

yeehaamcgee wrote:

I think people are expecting that the extra load on the alternator will outweigh any benefits.

the system has a solid state fuselink in that prevents any one cell (max of 3 cells on any one vehicle) drawing more than 5A.

So the most any system will draw will be 15A....thats less than your headlights.

You dont need to produce a vast amount of gas in order to get a big change in efficiency due to the volatility of hydrogen. A small amount of H goes a long way.

Each cell only produces a fixed amount of gas which is about 5l/ hour which is why bigger engines need more cells because they breath more air.

alfablue

If these systems have been around for 50 years and offer these amazing benefits then the only conclusion is that car manufacturers and the buying public are completely stupid!

Why would something so effective be ignored by so many for so long?

Anonymous

Gizmokev, I'm not saying I doubt it (not without doing some measurements and calculations first anyway ), I'm just pointing out WHERE people think the system breaks down.

spongtastic

GIZMOKEV - This works because H is a very volatile gas and burns so much quicker than just oxygen.

Believe me, as sombody who studied chemistry oxygen doesn't burn and as somebody running a fleet of 40+ vehicles these systems don't work.

Anonymous

spongtastic wrote:

GIZMOKEV - This works because...

Believe me, ~ these systems don't work.

Erm, so which one is it?

Gizmokev

Admittedly Oxygen doesn't burn...you are right it is the gases produced by the chemical breakdown of heat applied to the fuel that is burning.....pyrolization

Hydrogen acts as an additive to the fuel to help it burn more efficiently

@Yeehaamcgee
I know your not....just merely trying to dispel the rumours

@spongtastic
Have you trialed them??? I am getting over 35% increase in real time driving with no change in driving style. Explain that...

rhext

Gizmokev wrote:

Admittedly Oxygen doesn't burn...you are right it is the gases produced by the chemical breakdown of heat applied to the fuel that is burning.....pyrolization

Hydrogen acts as an additive to the fuel to help it burn more efficiently

@Yeehaamcgee
I know your not....just merely trying to dispel the rumours

@spongtastic
Have you trialed them??? I am getting over 35% increase in real time driving with no change in driving style. Explain that...

You seem to know an awful lot about the science behind it You're not connected to the company by any chance are you?

spongtastic

yeehaamcgee wrote:

spongtastic wrote:

GIZMOKEV - This works because...

Believe me, ~ these systems don't work.

Erm, so which one is it?

They don't work. I'm just s**t at using quotes.

Another of our 'colleagues' to much trumpeting installed one after being persuaded by a very fit, blonde, tall sales rep. No change in fuel consumption and £1600 up the swanny.

Without proof or data claims they do work are worthless. If it was that easy then you'd have every car manufacturer in the world using one. "Why pay a fortune for a prius when our Ford Feckwit does more mpg, less emissions and costs less!"

Just imagine how powerful a 335d would be, you'd be able to stop the earths rotation with its torques!

Gizmokev

rhext wrote:

You seem to know an awful lot about the science behind it You're not connected to the company by any chance are you?

Busted..... :oops:

I didn't really want to get into it all but couldn't help myself when the old rumours came out.

@Spongtastic

I may be interested in entering into a trail period with your company if your interested. No money up front....just trail it and if it works (by your calculations not mine) then we can discuss rolling it our across your fleet.

MrChuck

I might well have missed something, but if it's:

- Battery or engine used to produce Hydrogen on the fly
- Hydrogen introduced to engine making it more efficient

Isn't that either a perpetual motion machine, or just shifting the cost of producing the hydrogen a bit further upstream where it's not so obvious to the driver at the pumps?

Unless the battery is being topped up by an external source somewhere, aren't you getting out more than you're putting in?

cooldad

Gizmokev wrote:

rhext wrote:

You seem to know an awful lot about the science behind it You're not connected to the company by any chance are you?

Busted..... :oops:

I didn't really want to get into it all but couldn't help myself when the old rumours came out.

@Spongtastic

I may be interested in entering into a trail period with your company if your interested. No money up front....just trail it and if it works (by your calculations not mine) then we can discuss rolling it our across your fleet.

Except you brought it up originally, so you are not only a spamming snake oil salesman but a dishonest one.
Note the words from your original post:
"They guarantee ..." (Not we)
"I have had it done and got a 35% increase. "
"Apparently the way it works ..."
"It worked for me and many other (by all accounts)"

Anonymous

MrChuck, correct.
Gizmokev, busted, you walked straight into the hole we helped you dig yourself.
I wouldn't do business with any sales rep, or evangelist, who uses the word trail, instead of trial - just a hint

Gizmokev

Ok guys.....I hold my hands up to spamming for my own business and withholding the fact I was connected to the business in my post from earlier.

As a someone who has been a member of various forum over the years I should have known better and there is no excuse for my behaviour.

However in regards to the statements made by me about the system, how it operates and the claims about its performance, I standby them wholly and would not refute any single one.

Again I should have known better and apologise once more

Finally re my spelling.....having fat fungers is all I can admit to on that subject..

Anonymous

Fetch the banstick :evil:

Gizmokev

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Fetch the banstick :evil:

If it comes then it is my own fault and if the shoe were on the other foot I would no doubt be asking for the same.

However I am hoping for leniency as I have admitted to it immediately and once questioned was straight with you all. I know that this goes no way to giving reasons for my actions but would add that it was a huge error on my part and one that I will not be repeated.

I did not join this forum to spam my business but to learn more about bikes and such.

getonyourbike

and I'm not even joking

nicklouse

I see no probs with this. It is good to read some useful infos.

so really it is just providing a bit more Oxygen and some other stuff.

rhext

Gizmokev wrote:

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Fetch the banstick :evil:

If it comes then it is my own fault and if the shoe were on the other foot I would no doubt be asking for the same.

However I am hoping for leniency as I have admitted to it immediately and once questioned was straight with you all. I know that this goes no way to giving reasons for my actions but would add that it was a huge error on my part and one that I will not be repeated.

I did not join this forum to spam my business but to learn more about bikes and such.

.....yeah, and having checked your past posts, I kind of guessed that which is why I didn't wade in a little more viciously on this one: as a scientist (albeit no longer a professional one) I get a little upset at the use of pseudo-science to push snake-oil.

Perhaps we should move on.

Anonymous

Ok. On has been moved.

cat_with_no_tail

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Ok. On has been moved.

So that's why my TV remote has stopped working.

You b@stards!

Gizmokev

Cheers guys....much appreciated.

cooldad

Ah what the hell it's Friday night.
Happy weekend.

getonyourbike

cooldad wrote:

Ah what the hell it's Friday night.
Happy weekend.

what's wrong with you? You're not being a grumpy old b@stard like usual Just messin fella, don't want to have to get the big sticks out.

cooldad

Went out for a couple of beers after work, nice outdoor area, lovely weather, selection of local real ales (should have brought some sandals, at least I didn't shave today).
Don't drink much so feeling nicely mellow.
But I'll be back to my normal self tomorrow I'm sure.