Attention Scots! What do you really want?

kurako

This is a fascinating subject once you get into it. The circle is complete!

"As part of the deal, England paid off Scotland's debts with the 'Equivalent', a sum of £398,000, most of which went to cover the Company of Scotland's losses. The institution established to administer this money eventually became the Royal Bank of Scotland."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/ci ... n_01.shtml

unixnerd

Isn't it the case that in order to escape the angry mob those who signed the act of union did so it a pub toilet next to the royal mile in Edinburgh? I saw a programme last year where they tracked down the exact toilet, but I can't remember if it's an urban myth or not.

dreamlx10

...so long as we don't have to put up with Scottish television

Yes just put up with english tv !!! The ashes, the world cup, england winning the six nations....ooops !!

dreamlx10

But you don't have any ships, you say? Ah well... lesson learned

England doesn't have any ships either.

prj45

It wouldn't really be independence though would it, I figure scotland would have to become a part of the EEC, just like Ireland did, har har har,

Confusedboy

This has been a good debate guys, peppered with humour and full of folk with different viewpoints to mine explaining them in ways I hadn't taking into account before, and I've been following with the genuine interest of a Welsh Nationalist who dreams of an Autonomous Republic within the framework of a Federal Europe.

I'd like to make 2 comments. One is that the English state has been massively militarily, politically, economically, and numerically dominant among the nations of the British Isles for over a thousand years, and has historically sought to resolve issues within the British Isles by absorbing the other nations (although I allow that to describe Wales in 1282 as anything more than an embryonic state emerging from the Late Iron Age would be inaccurate) and, eventually, settling the remaining disputes by Acts of Union designed to guarantee the same rights and priveleges granted by the English Crown to it's English subjects to those of the absorbed nation. This policy was generally successful in the case of the Welsh and Scottish Unions, apart from the odd Owain Glyndwr or Bonnie Prince, and unworkable in the case of the Irish despite real concessions in terms of Catholic Emancipation. The failure of this tried and tested method in Ireland is down to the preservation of the rationale that produced the Protestant Acendancy in the aftermath of a famine whose mortality rate was inexcusable. The Welsh and Scots may not have always liked the idea of being ruled by an English monarch but generally had to admit that they were being treated at least as fairly as anyone else in Britain. This feeling was never apparent in Ireland.

The second point is that nationalist parties are almost by definition one-policy protest parties. If their desired aim appears to be more likely to become achieved, which is at least what it looks like in Scotland at the moment, they face an immediate internal crisis as there is less need of the protesting element and governing policies have to be devised. The SNP has a rough road ahead, and despite it's apparent success, is likely to see much support dwindling as the internal divisions become apparent and Alex Salmond becomes increasingly associated with being of a generation that laid the groundwork for the present situaltion and a new leader is sought for the changed circumstances. I predict an SNP leadership challenge in the next year.

unixnerd

The Welsh and Scots may not have always liked the idea of being ruled by an English monarch but generally had to admit that they were being treated at least as fairly as anyone else in Britain.

What blew that out of the water was Maggie Thatcher. If anyone was accountable for the rise in Scottish nationalism it's her.

cornerblock

unixnerd wrote:

The Welsh and Scots may not have always liked the idea of being ruled by an English monarch but generally had to admit that they were being treated at least as fairly as anyone else in Britain.

What blew that out of the water was Maggie Thatcher. If anyone was accountable for the rise in Scottish nationalism it's her.

Are you trying to say that Maggie Thatcher the milk snacher upset some people in Scotland and beyond? :shock:

nation

Confusedboy wrote:

The second point is that nationalist parties are almost by definition one-policy protest parties. If their desired aim appears to be more likely to become achieved, which is at least what it looks like in Scotland at the moment, they face an immediate internal crisis as there is less need of the protesting element and governing policies have to be devised. The SNP has a rough road ahead, and despite it's apparent success, is likely to see much support dwindling as the internal divisions become apparent and Alex Salmond becomes increasingly associated with being of a generation that laid the groundwork for the present situaltion and a new leader is sought for the changed circumstances. I predict an SNP leadership challenge in the next year.

I'm not sure this is really the case in this instance. The SNP has achieved its success by governing competently, keeping its promises, and positive campaigning.

Eight to ten years ago they were a protest party, but they've been in government long enough that I think it's fair to say their growing pains are behind them. Interestingly enough the one time that the party did appear to fragment and decline is in the early '00s, when Salmond stepped down. Their subsequent sweep to power is strongly associated with his return (and he got 75% of the ballot before the parties electoral successes), and I really don't think there are any credible challengers to his leadership now that he's riding high on a wave of popular support, and likely will be for the foreseeable future.

They don't call him King Eck for nothing.

daviesee

Confusedboy wrote:

The second point is that nationalist parties are almost by definition one-policy protest parties. If their desired aim appears to be more likely to become achieved, which is at least what it looks like in Scotland at the moment, they face an immediate internal crisis as there is less need of the protesting element and governing policies have to be devised. The SNP has a rough road ahead, and despite it's apparent success, is likely to see much support dwindling as the internal divisions become apparent and Alex Salmond becomes increasingly associated with being of a generation that laid the groundwork for the present situaltion and a new leader is sought for the changed circumstances. I predict an SNP leadership challenge in the next year.

I think you will find that you are wrong there.
Alex Salmond has quite rightly decided that he has to prove that Scotland is doing well in it's own right before calling a referendum. To that extent he has to do well on all issues and to date has been succeeding. What has to be seen is whether this will continue now they have a majority government and no-one else to blame. SNP is not a one-policy party any more (although that is their ultimate objective) and as Alex is doing well, I can't see anyone wanting to challenge him, far less succeeding.
The voters up here have the nous to realise that a vote for SNP in elections is not the same as a vote for independance. In fact, by hastening a referendum which at the moment look likely to be rejected, a SNP majority may well unite the nations quicker. Politics is a strange beast.

daviesee

prj45 wrote:

It wouldn't really be independence though would it, I figure scotland would have to become a part of the EEC, just like Ireland did, har har har,

That is one of my main issues with "independance". What is the point in getting away from Westminster rule, just to get Brussels rule.

On the other hand, if Westminster is going to be ruled by Brussels, why not cut out the middle man? As usual, the big questions are never straightforward.

daviesee

Cornerblock wrote:

unixnerd wrote:

The Welsh and Scots may not have always liked the idea of being ruled by an English monarch but generally had to admit that they were being treated at least as fairly as anyone else in Britain.

What blew that out of the water was Maggie Thatcher. If anyone was accountable for the rise in Scottish nationalism it's her.

Are you trying to say that Maggie Thatcher the milk snacher upset some people in Scotland and beyond? :shock:

You know. There might just be a grain of truth in that startling statement!

deptfordmarmoset

First of all, all credit to Alex Salmond. While he was brilliant as a rabble-rouser and mischief-maker in Westminster, it was always a negative role and I felt he had yet to prove himself as a constructive leader. I don't think that his positive approach is now in doubt.

Here's a paradoxical thought, though. All of his successes will have been achieved within the( relatively-devolved) UK. So the better he does his job - and the SNP do their job - the less need there is for Scottish independence.

Rider: this has only just occurred to me so I haven't fully thought it through yet...

rick_chasey

Anyone see the City AM this morning?


http://www.cityam.com/news-and-analysis ... ood-uk-plc

Butterd2

unixnerd wrote:

The Welsh and Scots may not have always liked the idea of being ruled by an English monarch but generally had to admit that they were being treated at least as fairly as anyone else in Britain.

What blew that out of the water was Maggie Thatcher. If anyone was accountable for the rise in Scottish nationalism it's her.

Of course it's all Maggie's fault, why don't you blame Wiggle too while you are at it?

Personally I'm all for a referendum and the English should be given a vote too, that would improve Salmond's chances of winning.

daviesee

Rick Chasey wrote:

Anyone see the City AM this morning?


http://www.cityam.com/news-and-analysis ... ood-uk-plc

As no-one knows the terms and conditions, no-one knows how to vote or how each Country will be affected. All hot air until then...................

rick_chasey

daviesee wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Anyone see the City AM this morning?


http://www.cityam.com/news-and-analysis ... ood-uk-plc

As no-one knows the terms and conditions, no-one knows how to vote or how each Country will be affected. All hot air until then...................

I was more just surprised that it was on the front page.

I know London is always a little right wing when it comes to the rest of GB ("we support them and that winds us up" attitude), and given the paper that attitude wasn't all unexpected, but it seemed a little extreme for a front page.

Gussio

Buckfast?

davmaggs

Alex S is a very wiley operator and it wouldn't surprise me if some reason was found to stall the referendum (as is the case at the moment). Why not play the victim card for another parliament or two and avoid taking a chance with the voters as a no vote would finish them for decades.

As the media point out he is one of the very MSPs with talent so he stands out. When he stepped down before his party floundered so they need to get some depth in leadership.

PS if they do go, then they should take their share of the national debt with them

nation

I think the SNP are established enough that a no vote on a referendum is not going to finish them.

They're the party doing the best job, that has the best policies. There are plenty of people that vote for the SNP that don't necessarily want independence. As long as they continue doing a decent job of running the country, there's no reason to assume that a no vote will drive voters away from them.

Labour or the Lib Dems might be able to draw voters away from the SNP in the future if they can mount a credible campaign on a decent policy platform.

RossMu

I just wanted to add my tuppence-worth to this conversation. I live on the west coast of Scotland and have voted SNP for several years.

I am more excited about the idea of a vote on independence than independence itself. The rumbles over independence have been going on for too long in my generation already. I also think the sectarian divide is perpetuated by the arguement of independance. Having a referendum on this will hopefully force people to put-up or shut up.

At this moment I would vote for Independence, because I would like to see my country make a go at it on their own. However the more I try to think of arguements for, the more I think it is pride as much as anything else. I have big questions over what would happen employment-wise (particularly with the armed forces, of which a dis-proportionate number of Scots are employed) that I would need to investigate further before casting a vote..

Redhog14

davmaggs wrote:

I go up there now and again and one think I don't think is appreciated in England is the level of nationalism there is in Scotland. Even food in the supermarket is marked with the flag.

There is also a sort of obsession with England and I suspect with the localised media and now the parliament a very mild siege mentality that seems to be building over the years. What amazes them in discussions is when you tell them that England just doesn't think about Scotland, it just doesn't come up in the average person's political discussions (barr NHS/Uni fees comparisons) so we aren't in on some scheme to do them down. In a way it is more insulting to say that we just don't care about them.

There is also a very significant learn towards the left a view that the state should run things that seems much more pronunced than in southern England so Westminster policies go down badly. It seems very ingrained even in people that aren't overtly political despite Scotland's former history of industrial entrepreneurship.

I suspect that the SNP know that they'll lose a referendum so they'll keep on playing the victim card and try and avoid it.

One or two points to pick up on here..
Our food is marked with a Scottish Flag because on average our quality of produce is better as most Scottish Farms are not a intensivley worked as English ones, we have a lot less people on about the same amount of land. Also our food was not as afflicted by the BSE and other issues F&M as English farms yet we were all lumped together (rightly or wrorgly)
We do take umbridge to the English "overview" I.e. English people are far more ignorant on Scotland than Scots are on England - its a fact born out of the dominant southern economy and media.
Scotlands entrepreneurs all buggered off to get funding elsewhere as did the majority of the middle/management classes in the 17/18th C to US/Canada/Aus and left behind a worker drone mentality which evolved into a socialist attitude. Unfortunately too many Scots even decently educated ones think they are "lucky" to be there rather than earned their right.
S England has such a huge cultural mix that maybe it is the one that should be seeking independance as it would be far more interesting to see what politics would emerge from that vis a vis California v Utah is a fair comparison.

Britain IMO should be more of federal republic with all regions able to set their own agendas. Us Scots are a fairly chippy lot and don't mind getting up your nose from time to time but we could just have the genesis of the politcal future of the UK.

This is what I would like to change in Scotland but I don't want independance from the United Kingdom, it woudl cost too much money and serve only to facilitate grandoise statements and posturing from politicians like Alex Salmond.

Redhog14

The Welsh and Scots may not have always liked the idea of being ruled by an English monarch but generally had to admit that they were being treated at least as fairly as anyone else in Britain.

What blew that out of the water was Maggie Thatcher. If anyone was accountable for the rise in Scottish nationalism it's her.[/quote]

Of course it's all Maggie's fault, why don't you blame Wiggle too while you are at it?

Personally I'm all for a referendum and the English should be given a vote too, that would improve Salmond's chances of winning.[/quote] - NOW THERES A THOUGHT THAT WOULD MAKE ME LAUGH.

unixnerd

Re the flag on food products, that should be mandatory everywhere. It's greener to buy food that's produced locally and not shipped half way around the planet.

baronsouthside

Bit late to this thread but i`ll say it anyway.

Its never been SNP policy to force independence on the nation(although independence is their favoured outcome) . Its always always been the SNPs policy to allow us scots to chose independence for ourselves through a referendum. Now that they have the majority, they can fulfill that promise so the mere fact that the scottish people will get a referendum means that the SNP have done what they said they would.

One point that the Scotsman newspaper made a while back was that 64% of young Scots 18-24 want independence. They have grown up knowing nothing but a Scottish parliment and feel completely seperate and divorced from westminster.

In Scotland just as the tories lost a whole generation or 2 during the Thatcher years, Blair and Brown have lost a generation of twenty somethings because they knew nothing but labour way down south in westminster and in the end didnt like it. This partly explains why labours vote collapsed.

Likewise the lib dems now have lost almost all support because of their coaliton with the tories. Centre left labour voters who voted lib dem as a protest were utterly scunnered by them prostituting themselves by jumping into bed with the tories.

I beleive people are overlooking this centre left non labour supporting scottish youth vote and personnally because of this a referendum will be closer than we all think. If this youth vote mobilises en masse then its not looking good for the union. The people have the power .

greg66_tri_v2.0

baronsouthside wrote:

In Scotland just as the tories lost a whole generation or 2 during the Thatcher years, Blair and Brown have lost a generation of twenty somethings because they knew nothing but labour way down south in westminster and in the end didnt like it. This partly explains why labours vote collapsed.

Likewise the lib dems now have lost almost all support because of their coaliton with the tories. Centre left labour voters who voted lib dem as a protest were utterly scunnered by them prostituting themselves by jumping into bed with the tories.

I beleive people are overlooking this centre left non labour supporting scottish youth vote and personnally because of this a referendum will be closer than we all think. If this youth vote mobilises en masse then its not looking good for the union. The people have the power .

I've seen this theme (the Tories are dead, labour is dead, the LDs are dead in Scotland) a few times in this thread. It's very hard to argue that it is anything other than bang on the money.

But it has got me thinking. It tends to disclose (IMO) a tendency for Scots to never forgive and never forget when they feel they've been let down (yes, generalisations again, but there you go).

No political party in the history of mankind has been able to deliver sustainable and unbroken good times. So what is going to happen when the Scottish electorate decide that they've been let down by the SNP (because they will at some point in the future). Who is there left to vote for?

baronsouthside

greg66

Quote; No political party in the history of mankind has been able to deliver sustainable and unbroken good times. So what is going to happen when the Scottish electorate decide that they've been let down by the SNP (because they will at some point in the future). Who is there left to vote for?"

This is an interesting Question. It all depends on the referendum. SNP have always said. let the people decide through a referndum then once/if indepenance is here they would call an election and let the people decide once again who they want to run the newly independant country. If the scots vote for seperation then new parties will emerge. The SNP as we know it will evolve into the main centre left pro europe party. Labour with morph (or need to morph into) into a left centre democratic socialist party to stand any chance. Tories will stay the same on the right but have to evolve to survive (ie drop the unionist/capitilist tag). Historically, Scotland has never been a centre right thinking country and they will struggle to survive. The lib dems will emerge as themselves but with a seperate scottish identity. And dont forget the greens. Scotland is well placed for renewables etc and they speak to a lot of middle of the road, upper working/middle classes. Effectivly, with independance, the political slate would be wiped clean and the people will once decide from scratch. a Its going to be a wonderful time up here on the run up to the referendum

daviesee

Greg66 wrote:

No political party in the history of mankind has been able to deliver sustainable and unbroken good times. So what is going to happen when the Scottish electorate decide that they've been let down by the SNP (because they will at some point in the future). Who is there left to vote for?

We do forgive and forget but you have to work to prove you deserve it. Time is not enough.

No facts to back it up but my guess based on the past 35 years that I have been observing, I think that when the SNP let the people down badly (like you, I believe all parties fail eventually) then people will default back to the other 3 main parties and my guess would be a Labour win, although maybe not majority. More specifically, any party seeming genuine that is left of centre.

Drysuitdiver

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme


give em the independence and lets see how long till they need to come back :twisted:

nation

Greg66 wrote:

baronsouthside wrote:

In Scotland just as the tories lost a whole generation or 2 during the Thatcher years, Blair and Brown have lost a generation of twenty somethings because they knew nothing but labour way down south in westminster and in the end didnt like it. This partly explains why labours vote collapsed.

Likewise the lib dems now have lost almost all support because of their coaliton with the tories. Centre left labour voters who voted lib dem as a protest were utterly scunnered by them prostituting themselves by jumping into bed with the tories.

I beleive people are overlooking this centre left non labour supporting scottish youth vote and personnally because of this a referendum will be closer than we all think. If this youth vote mobilises en masse then its not looking good for the union. The people have the power .

I've seen this theme (the Tories are dead, labour is dead, the LDs are dead in Scotland) a few times in this thread. It's very hard to argue that it is anything other than bang on the money.

But it has got me thinking. It tends to disclose (IMO) a tendency for Scots to never forgive and never forget when they feel they've been let down (yes, generalisations again, but there you go).

No political party in the history of mankind has been able to deliver sustainable and unbroken good times. So what is going to happen when the Scottish electorate decide that they've been let down by the SNP (because they will at some point in the future). Who is there left to vote for?

I don't think Labour are necessarily dead. They've bogged themselves down by pushing unpopular policies, and their recent campaigning, especially in Scotland, has made them look ridiculous (basically "vote for us or the Nats will win!" seemingly without realising that most people actually don't have a problem with that).

Similarly the Lib Dems are getting a bit of a bad rap. A lot of Lib Dem policy has been enacted, but they didn't get their big banner polices that drew a lot of voters to them in the first place. Whether that's a realistic expectation on the part of the electorate (I don't think it necessarily is) the Tory association has turned out to be so poisonous that unless they've got the stones to now step up and block the stuff that was never negotiated (like NHS privatisation) they're going to lose out.