How to keep up with the chain gang

Fredster42

Hi

I've just got back from getting a complete kicking on my local chain gang. I started last week and managed an hour (proably the most intense hour of cycling ever!). My legs were still in bits 3 days later.

This week I only managed 15 mins before the bunch disapeared up the road.

I did do the a summer of chaing gangs a few years ago on my previous attempt at racing and I know its by the far the best way of getting fit to race.

So my question is really whats the best way to prepare for this sort of riding? Are there any sessions I can do to prepare for it or shall I just turn up and try and hang on abit longer each week?

I cant really find anything as intense. I do quite a few hills but it just seems totally different, its the leg speed that the real problem for me

Cheers

eh

shall I just turn up and try and hang on abit longer each week?

YES

Actually one way is to kind of cheat and start say 5 minutes earlier than the chaingang, then jump on when they come past, stops you getting depressed getting dropped at the same point each time.

Oh and yes they are supposed to be brutal :twisted:

oldwelshman

If you know the guys they should let you do less turns until you can last longer.

Pokerface

oldwelshman wrote:

If you know the guys they should let you do less turns until you can last longer.

On our fast chaingang, the really good riders do lots of turns. Some riders will just sit at the back the whole way. But once the speed gets going, even sitting on the back is hard!


Personally, I find the closer to the front I am, the easier it is (even if you have to do turns, etc).

Off the back it's too easy for gaps to form and get dropped quickly.

As for training you can do to prepare for these rides - how about short intervals!? 15 seconds sprint followed by 2 mins recovery. Over and over. Simulate the chaingang a bit.

Fredster42

Thanks guys

The bit about doing fewer turns is interesting
Last week I sat on the back and got round but found it hard continually having to sprint to catch the back as people went through and off

So this week I decided to do a few turns, I did a couple which put me really into the red and then a small gap opened at the back and I was gone.

I think I'll try sticking at the back again next week.

jgsi

Fredster42 wrote:

Thanks guys

The bit about doing fewer turns is interesting
Last week I sat on the back and got round but found it hard continually having to sprint to catch the back as people went through and off

So this week I decided to do a few turns, I did a couple which put me really into the red and then a small gap opened at the back and I was gone.

I think I'll try sticking at the back again next week.

I have now invested in a turbo and with my 2 sufferfest vids in an attempt to get more interval structure into the training.... I just can't make chaingangs due to my working hours and thus my only hope is for at least 2 v hard hour sessions coupled with the stuff I do at work and weekly races.. if you can make the chaingangs tho' thats the best way forward

danowat

They are worth persevering with, as they are a heck of a workout, they push you out of your comfort zone and force you to ride harder than you would.

I remember the first one I did, I got torn to shreds within the first 30mins, then I just hung on the back for a bit to get my breath back and rejoined, kept this up for the whole 2hrs!

Slack

You've just got to stick with it.

Depending on your age/talent will determine how low long it takes before you get stronger. The chaingang I partake in will get faster over the summer, which I expect is the same for most club chaingangs, so bear this in mind!

Last year was my first year proper cycling, and I really struggled to keep up with the chaingang - I would go into the red on the hills and not recover sufficiently to sustain the effort.

Over the winter I didn't do any chaingang riding, instead concentrating on base training. I joined the chaingang for first time this year 4 weeks ago - result I'm in the mix and strong on the front! It still hurts, but I can sustain the effort consistently for the whole route!

Moral of my story: consider working on your base/aerobic fitness as this will help you leaps and bounds.

Poulsy

Bristol chaingang by any chance?!

Road Red

As a matter of interest what kind of speeds are we talking about here?

shockedsoshocked

As others have said, hang on for a bit longer each time.

Being in a group of riders who know who to go through smoothly is also important. Having people kick through hard or speed up when you're trying to come through isn't ideal if you're not the strongest. Also helps if people change the rotation of the lines if there's a change in wind (something a lot of people don't realise!)

Even sitting at the back on the way out and coming through on the way back might help, as long as you let people know you're sitting in as to not disrupt the line when people are expecting you to go through.

It is great training and the closest thing to racing (if not harder!). If your legs are shot just try steady rides for a couple of days?

Tom Butcher

If you are having to sit on the back far better to try and get a smaller group of riders together you can work with. I know this does require there to be sufficient riders to form 2 groups and for some people to swallow their egos and accept they aren't quite up the standard of the front group but I reckon it means you get a harder workout and you get the benefit of learning smooth through and off while on the limit.

On ours the etiquette is that if you go with the fast group you do your turns up to the hill at least - about half way in - after that taking a rest on the back is accepted. Previous experience is that having a lot of riders sitting on from the start stuffs up the through and off and ends up with riders who could contribute hiding just so they can get over the hill with the group - it just slows the whole thing down. If a new guy turns up and there is no second group then nobody is going to complain about them sitting on just while they see how things work but it can spoil a good chain gang if it becomes the norm for too many. Coming through and off smoothly shouldn't be much harder than grabbing different wheels at the back anyway - just make sure you get behind someone who knows how to ease off when they pull over - some people just keep the pressure on and kill you trying to get past them.

Anonymous

Just keep going back and trying.

When I started riding I went to our normal chaingang and consistently got dropped.
I kept going back and lasted further each time.

Now I go to the fast ones (the same as Pokerface) and have the same problem. However I'll just keep going back and I'll be fine I'm sure...

twotyred

I did do the a summer of chaing gangs a few years ago on my previous attempt at racing and I know its by the far the best way of getting fit to race.

Really?

From Pete Read's black book

There is often no structure and
as the winter progresses and the nights become lighter the evening rides
develop, (more often than not), into a 'chain gang'. This then means that
regardless of ability, everyone on the chain gang attempts to do exactly the
same type of training only at varying intensities! Eventually the numbers
dwindle as the strong become stronger and the weak become disillusioned by
the constant battering they receive, and also by eventually getting shot off
the back every week. This happens because contrary to popular belief, chain
gang type training only suits a small minority of racing cyclists and is actually
counter productive to the rest.

You've just told us after a chain gang your legs are shot for 3 days. That's three days at least you are unable to train effectively. Then you've only just recovered before you get your next chain gang battering. I don't think you're going to get anywhere like that.

I'd suggest you find a coach and start a proper structured training programme.

jibberjim

Tom Butcher wrote:

you get the benefit of learning smooth through and off while on the limit.

I've heard this said so often as if it's something that it's really important to master - you don't, it's barely relevant - when you're genuinely on the limit through and off is a pretty lousy way of going fast, since it can only move at the speed of the slowest rider, in any group where you want to be going full speed you should be doing a single line with varying length pulls on the front depending on strength. Like a team time trial.

If you're on the limit doing through and off - you're the weakest guy in the group and all you're doing is reducing the intensity of the others in the group.

I would never expect people to work - completely fine with people sitting in all day - I don't see the point in forcing weaker clubmates to break themselves and have a lonely ride home just to add 0.05mph to an average ride speed because the strong guys got a fraction bigger rest early on.

Tom Butcher

jibberjim wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

you get the benefit of learning smooth through and off while on the limit.

I've heard this said so often as if it's something that it's really important to master - you don't, it's barely relevant - when you're genuinely on the limit through and off is a pretty lousy way of going fast, since it can only move at the speed of the slowest rider, in any group where you want to be going full speed you should be doing a single line with varying length pulls on the front depending on strength. Like a team time trial.

If you're on the limit doing through and off - you're the weakest guy in the group and all you're doing is reducing the intensity of the others in the group.

I would never expect people to work - completely fine with people sitting in all day - I don't see the point in forcing weaker clubmates to break themselves and have a lonely ride home just to add 0.05mph to an average ride speed because the strong guys got a fraction bigger rest early on.

You aren't training for a team time trial or trying to get round the course as fast as possible so your criticism isn't really relevant. The ability to ride through and off is very important if you want to race because it's all about control of your bike and awareness of others when you are on the limit - whether you actually end up doing that or riding longer turns doesn't really matter it requires the same skill.

On occasion we get Rob Sharman coming out on ours or recently one of the Raleigh boys over from the USA (most chaingangs probably have their own local fast boys who show up) - I suppose they probably could sit on the front and nail it for a couple of miles at a time while the rest of us hang on but in my experience when a chaingang works like that in the long run it just ends up with people saving themselves to get over the hill or to get to the finish or then to contest the sprint at the end and the whole thing gets slower. People do sit in a bit on the way back to recover so it's not totally rigid but if you can't come through on the way out you probably aren't on the right ride - no shame in that.

As for people getting a lonely ride home - well it's not a social ride - it happens to most people - if it's happening on a regular basis then you get a group together who are more your speed and work with them. Often the hardest rides are if 3-4 of you get split off from the main group - almost always harder than sitting on a faster group all the way back. Keeping ours through and off has meant we were getting 40 odd out all Winter on a Tuesday and a dozen or so on Thursday - Summer we get up to 20 on Thursdays - it suits us and for me works far better than the localish alternative where there seems endless bickering about the riding.

Barteos

Slack wrote:

Over the winter I didn't do any chaingang riding, instead concentrating on base training.....
..... Moral of my story: consider working on your base/aerobic fitness as this will help you leaps and bounds.

1+

jibberjim

Tom Butcher wrote:

You aren't training for a team time trial or trying to get round the course as fast as possible so your criticism isn't really relevant.

But what is the aim? If the aim is a good training session for all - then through and off with everyone working doesn't really work as you're limited to the intensity of the slowest rider, so all the strong riders won't be geting a good work out.

Tom Butcher wrote:

The ability to ride through and off is very important if you want to race because it's all about control of your bike and awareness of others when you are on the limit - whether you actually end up doing that or riding longer turns doesn't really matter it requires the same skill.

If it's a skills session - then why do you want people to be on the absolute limit? Shouldn't you do it at a comfortable pace where everyone can learn the skills without a problem - and if being on the limit is part of the skill you need to learn, then it doesn't work having the weaker people in the rotation as then the stronger people won't be on the limit.

Tom Butcher wrote:

Keeping ours through and off has meant we were getting 40 odd out all Winter on a Tuesday and a dozen or so on Thursday - Summer we get up to 20 on Thursdays - it suits us and for me works far better than the localish alternative where there seems endless bickering about the riding.

If you have a closed circuit suitable for 40 people in a bunch, it seems sad to waste it on a rigid chain.

Slimbods

I don't agree that through and off goes at the pace of the slowest rider. In our sessions, the slower guys simply miss turns where the strong guys keep coming through. That way the less fit can get a rest before having a go again, keeping the pace high.

It doesn't limit the fast guys, because they can still take a longer turn at the front, but hte average pace stays high because there's always someone fresh coming up to take the front as soon as you start to slow.

It's also good race training, the on-off efforts of through and off seem to me to simulate a race much more than just sitting in a bunch. And as mentioned already, it's good practice for moving up and down a bunch. You can spot in a race who's done a lot of through and off riding when going through smoothly and who's rarely ridden in a bunch when they take the front and charge off up the road.

Oh, and the other thing; it's fun.

jibberjim

Slimbods wrote:

I don't agree that through and off goes at the pace of the slowest rider. In our sessions, the slower guys simply miss turns where the strong guys keep coming through. That way the less fit can get a rest before having a go again, keeping the pace high.

That's not "through and off" then though, since the two lines rely on everyone taking turns, you can't take "a longer turn" at the front of such a ride, as you roll off as soon as you hit the front. What you're describing makes perfect sense, and people can sit on without ever doing a turn, or do a few turns when they can, or whatever. It's exactly what I was suggesting - as opposed to a through and off which forces people to take turns and the group to ride at their speed.

rjh299

Slimbods wrote:

Oh, and the other thing; it's fun.

It doesn't sound fun. It's sounds like hard work! :shock:

Slimbods

jibberjim wrote:

That's not "through and off" then though, since the two lines rely on everyone taking turns, you can't take "a longer turn" at the front of such a ride, as you roll off as soon as you hit the front. What you're describing makes perfect sense, and people can sit on without ever doing a turn, or do a few turns when they can, or whatever. It's exactly what I was suggesting - as opposed to a through and off which forces people to take turns and the group to ride at their speed.

Of course it's through and off. The two lines still work, the people clinging on the back just shout next man to go or the last man in front of the rider skipping a turn spots the gap and moves over.

The stronger riders can stay at the front a little longer, particularly if there's a few of em. It's not enforced turn length or anything, you do what you can to keep everything fast and if your man coming up can't match the pace, you stay on a little longer until you tire enough that someone can come in front of you.

Through and off definitely isn't forcing the group to ride at someones speed. Our club does these sessions all the time, and it's bloody good training even with a slightly mixed group.

rls

Slimbods wrote:

I don't agree that through and off goes at the pace of the slowest rider. In our sessions, the slower guys simply miss turns where the strong guys keep coming through. That way the less fit can get a rest before having a go again, keeping the pace high.

It doesn't limit the fast guys, because they can still take a longer turn at the front, but hte average pace stays high because there's always someone fresh coming up to take the front as soon as you start to slow.

It's also good race training, the on-off efforts of through and off seem to me to simulate a race much more than just sitting in a bunch. And as mentioned already, it's good practice for moving up and down a bunch. You can spot in a race who's done a lot of through and off riding when going through smoothly and who's rarely ridden in a bunch when they take the front and charge off up the road.

Oh, and the other thing; it's fun.

+1. I only just started joining in with my clubs chaingang and I can usually last half the course without being dropped. I tend to do a few turns, then miss a few to recover, doing more when I'm ready again. Inevitably I get carried away, do too many turns and blow up at some point. It is good fun though and it's brought my speed up a lot in a very short space of time...hopefully I'll continue to improve and eventually be doing the full course. Our course also has the advantage that it does two loops and there are 3 or four places that you can shortcut the loop and catch the group on the return leg. This means that on the second loop weaker riders can cut it short and rejoin the group in time for the sprint finish.

Tom Butcher

jibberjim wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

You aren't training for a team time trial or trying to get round the course as fast as possible so your criticism isn't really relevant.

But what is the aim? If the aim is a good training session for all - then through and off with everyone working doesn't really work as you're limited to the intensity of the slowest rider, so all the strong riders won't be geting a good work out.

Tom Butcher wrote:

The ability to ride through and off is very important if you want to race because it's all about control of your bike and awareness of others when you are on the limit - whether you actually end up doing that or riding longer turns doesn't really matter it requires the same skill.

If it's a skills session - then why do you want people to be on the absolute limit? Shouldn't you do it at a comfortable pace where everyone can learn the skills without a problem - and if being on the limit is part of the skill you need to learn, then it doesn't work having the weaker people in the rotation as then the stronger people won't be on the limit.

Tom Butcher wrote:

Keeping ours through and off has meant we were getting 40 odd out all Winter on a Tuesday and a dozen or so on Thursday - Summer we get up to 20 on Thursdays - it suits us and for me works far better than the localish alternative where there seems endless bickering about the riding.

If you have a closed circuit suitable for 40 people in a bunch, it seems sad to waste it on a rigid chain.

We don't have a closed circuit - we ride on the roads - we don't go off in one group of 40 in Winter - we have 2 or 3 groups based on ability - the faster group might split further once we reach the main hill - the steadier group may wait for riders dropped on the hill.

It's not a skills session - it's a training session which has the added benefit of building skills. Try getting a decent group out for a purely skills based session each week and it aint going to happen.

We aren't absolutely rigid about missing turns - just if you set out in the fastest group the etiquette is you do turns up to the hill - later on people will sit on to recover but in my experience when more than the odd person sits on from the start it soon degenerates with more and more doing so. I don't know how many others on here do it - one at least - they can give their opinion of how it works but I've done plenty of chaingangs before and this one works well and that's why it's fairly popular.

psiturbo

Number #1:

Shave the extra fat weight.

Instead of hiding out on windy days, go out and cycle while others stay indoors. I used to hate when the wind had me riding as if I had an anchor attached to my bike. Now I endure the pain and suffering. The wind will make you stronger.

Hit the gym for some strength training (thats your plan for the off season)

There is no magic recipe for such power output in such amount of time. It takes months and easily a year of incremental training, or else face over-training and burning out.

Do only those high pace training rides once or maybe twice a week.

Regardless of the speed, whats your heart rate?

How time you spend on each zone?

I do this club ride once a week where 170 to 180 is the norm, but everyone is suffering. Try not to go 100% every week.

In my case, shave the weight, do cross training on the winter time and do a 12 week strength training cycle with only easy rides, especializing on core multi-joint exercises...

Mix it with strength and power days 4 to 5 times a week and easy bike rides and rest on the weekend staying away from the gym. Never ever give 100% and do not psyque the workouts, do not build the adrenaline, leave that for the club rides...!
Squats

Dead lifts

military press

Press and clean

pull ups

\

I am a firm believer on running during the off season and practicing sports like soccer that copy the push pull high and lows of club rides.

SteveR_100Milers

The only pace I ave ever been involved in a true through and off paceline was on the track, where it's impossible to sit n without disrupting the line. Our club road chaingang is less disciplined, stronger riders taking more turns, some riders sit all the way, some of us sit in at the end and sprint for the signs etc. It's nowhere near as disciplined as a proper chaingang, but probably closer to what you might do in a race as a team. Either way, everyone seems to get an equally tough session irrespective of outright ability, and it brings about big gains in speed.

Pooter

The club chaingang is an anachronism that should have died out years ago. I often hear people say "the chaingang only trains you for the chaingang". If you want some proper race training go out on your own and do intervals to reproduce the changes of pace in a race. Once upon a time when 25/50 time trials and 3 or4 up team time trials were all the rage it was useful to ride at a constant speed for 90 mins or so. Nobody does this anymore ( it's all road racing) but the training hasn't changed. Clubs would be better off ditching the CG and replacing it with a ride with loads of burn ups and sprints followed by regrouping.

psiturbo

Pooter wrote:

Once upon a time when 25/50 time trials and 3 or4 up team time trials were all the rage it was useful to ride at a constant speed for 90 mins or so. Nobody does this anymore ( it's all road racing) but the training hasn't changed. Clubs would be better off ditching the CG and replacing it with a ride with loads of burn ups and sprints followed by regrouping.

Thats exactly why I am hooked on the local group rides here in town.

From the first day I joined they warned me about it, all out full racing with break-aways, sprints, chasing, and even some healthy malicious racing (if there is such) to learn to predict the line and attacks.

The first time I went it was so crazy I bailed out around 10 miles, came back and was able to do the whole ride. Will never forget it, my body hurt so much that not even Motrin 600 mg would ease the pain and sleep.

SteveR_100Milers

Pooter wrote:

The club chaingang is an anachronism that should have died out years ago. I often hear people say "the chaingang only trains you for the chaingang". If you want some proper race training go out on your own and do intervals to reproduce the changes of pace in a race. Once upon a time when 25/50 time trials and 3 or4 up team time trials were all the rage it was useful to ride at a constant speed for 90 mins or so. Nobody does this anymore ( it's all road racing) but the training hasn't changed. Clubs would be better off ditching the CG and replacing it with a ride with loads of burn ups and sprints followed by regrouping.

Which is exactly what some of have said already! It would appear that there are a a few diehards who believe you gotta take a turn no matter what state you're in. Lowest common denominator and all that. CG's are fine for elite riders who are all within 5% of each others ability, but not much use for a mixed amateur group.

fish156

Pooter wrote:

The club chaingang is an anachronism that should have died out years ago. I often hear people say "the chaingang only trains you for the chaingang". If you want some proper race training go out on your own and do intervals to reproduce the changes of pace in a race. Once upon a time when 25/50 time trials and 3 or4 up team time trials were all the rage it was useful to ride at a constant speed for 90 mins or so. Nobody does this anymore ( it's all road racing) but the training hasn't changed. Clubs would be better off ditching the CG and replacing it with a ride with loads of burn ups and sprints followed by regrouping.

I wonder if this comment and the chase then sit-up and wait for the bunch sprint mentality that seems so prevalent in lower category road racing have anything in common? Breakaway anyone?

The guys I ride CG with are the guys in the breaks come race day.

To the OP, as suggest yourself, just keep turning up, hanging in a bit longer each week. You'll soon find your group riding becoming stronger, hopefully winning the sprint at the end.

oldwelshman

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

The only pace I ave ever been involved in a true through and off paceline was on the track, where it's impossible to sit n without disrupting the line. Our club road chaingang is less disciplined, stronger riders taking more turns, some riders sit all the way, some of us sit in at the end and sprint for the signs etc. It's nowhere near as disciplined as a proper chaingang, but probably closer to what you might do in a race as a team. Either way, everyone seems to get an equally tough session irrespective of outright ability, and it brings about big gains in speed.

The difference on the track Steve is it is only 250m so no need to hang on , when riders get tired they drop off for a lap and reajoin when the chain comes back around.
the though and off at Newport is rarely flat out, maybe only for last few miutes and theres only about 6 or 8 left by then and it can be a biot ropey then