Friday Debate - AV Referendum 5th May

bails87

bails87 wrote:

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If someone's got a £20 note and a £50 note in their pocket and they say you can have the £20 or nothing. Would you take the 'nothing' in the hope of being offered £50 later on?

sketchley

bails87 wrote:

bails87 wrote:

[

If someone's got a £20 note and a £50 note in their pocket and they say you can have the £20 or nothing. Would you take the 'nothing' in the hope of being offered £50 later on?

That example works because £20 is subset of £50 and if you want £50, £20 will do as it's almost half way there. Now I'm sure someone will argue the AV is a subset of PR....

The problem with a yes vote if you don't want AV is that you may then be stuck with that for many years and indeed to public might end up quite happy with it and therefore vote no when offered PR in some future referendum.

Of course the same can be said about a no vote killing off any chance of electroial reform as it will be seen as a Yes vote for FPTP.

ga02clr

I will be voting no to AV.

I agree the voting system needs reforming but AV is not the answer. This was very eloquently put in the post by Kieran_Burns.
I am not in favour of enforcing everyone to vote. It’s a personal choice and would I believe in fact produce an even worse form of politics than we currently see. The startling lack of interest in politics within the UK is the real problem. While people who complain about the actions of a government but then when questions had not bothered to vote for any party are quite frankly pathetic. A vote should be given from an informed position so we don’t run a who smiles best to the camera form of politics.
In this county as in many others a very large number of the general populous base their opinion on what is in the red tops that week, the BBC and SKY news have now moved to cover things on this sensationalist basis. Obviously this is the how the parties now base their stance and why sound clips have become so important.
As an example unions can do a very good job protecting their workers and are very good at publishing their causes. Now a fact not widely known but will form news clips when the conservatives see the need are as follows. Bob Crow –RMT Union campaigns for low earning rail staff against ‘fat cats’ exploiting the tax system for the hard working man. Bob Crow’s package is worth about £134,000 (PM is on £142,500,000) which if the members deem is fair then all well and good. Bob Crow however lives in a tax payer Housing Association Property therefore he exploits the tax system.... this will be a sound bite moment and does not promote good politics.
AV would result in everyone trying to play safe politics and be very middle of the road; you don’t have to be the most loved or best party you would just have to be the one that no one despises.
The last election saw a supposed large number of protest votes for the Liberal Democrats mostly form Labour but also from the Tories. In the resultant coalition the party that came third actually while the decision on who should form a government. No one got there first choice and no one is really happy. This is effectively what AV would result in.
At times what has to be done in politics or in business is not going to be popular with all or many but it could be for the greater good. AV could cause a real dumbing down and even more convergence of the parties to a middle ground that actually reduces a voters choice as they seek to be popular to all.
As a final point I find it very interesting that people have a hatred of a party. This can often be the Tories or in cases Labour and the unions. If you study policy documents and where the parties actually sit the Tories in their current guise actually sit very close to where New Labour under Blair were. New Labour realising they had to move to the centre ground to keep more people happy moved towards the Tory right.
My greatest wish would be that voters read policy documents or at least research key elements of them and then base their decisions on these. A few of the major papers did an online analysis of views of participants and then linked these to the policy documents of parties to indicate where your views actually related to. Many people I know where shocked at the result thinking they could never vote for; Labour, Conservative, Greens, Liberal Democrats, UKIP etc.

ga02clr

As one side point the AV vote referendum may well prove completely pointless. For it to be auctioned if voted through it is going through with the electoral boundary change on the same legislation that is due to happen by the end of 2013. This has to be voted through the house of commons and lords. While it suits labour may suit labour in many cases to switch to AV there are many labour PM’s who will lose out at boundary reform and are very unlikely to vote this though.
The change to AV if voted for in a referendum is quite likely to be killed by the Labour party PM’s siding with the Tories who don’t wont AV to prevent boundary reform being implement on the same ticket.

bails87

Sketchley wrote:

bails87 wrote:

bails87 wrote:

[

If someone's got a £20 note and a £50 note in their pocket and they say you can have the £20 or nothing. Would you take the 'nothing' in the hope of being offered £50 later on?

That example works because £20 is subset of £50 and if you want £50, £20 will do as it's almost half way there. Now I'm sure someone will argue the AV is a subset of PR....

The problem with a yes vote if you don't want AV is that you may then be stuck with that for many years and indeed to public might end up quite happy with it and therefore vote no when offered PR in some future referendum.

Of course the same can be said about a no vote killing off any chance of electroial reform as it will be seen as a Yes vote for FPTP.

Yes, I suppose it depends on if you see PR in general as a good thing. And if AV is also a good thing, better than FPTP ,but not as good as 'full' PR, whatever that might be.

The way I see it, at present, you can get 30% of the vote and win. So you know that 30% of the voters who voted in your constituency wanted you to be in charge. (Probably only 60% of voters actually voted, so only 18% of the electorate actually want you in charge, 40% don't care and 42% wanted someone else). But seeing as we can only count people who chose to vote; 30% wanted you, 70% made it very clear that they wanted someone else.

With AV, you know that you might not be their first choice, but at least a mimimum of 50% of the voters are happy to have you in charge If they're not then they don't put a number next to your name.

Cuchulainn

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Cuchulainn wrote:

shouldbeinbed wrote:

What makes you think voting reform won't be a dead topic for longer than a generation after 5th May whichever way it goes?

That was exactly my point - this is most likely the only chance we'll get to vote on any form of voting change in the next 20 or 30 years. The people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not full PR are just being idiots.

So it's a crap choice, but at least it IS a choice, so choose it? Is that what you're saying?

If you want voting reform, yes.

I'm not saying "vote yes if you want a choice", I'm saying that a no vote will definitely be seen as support for FPTP and not as a vote for PR instead of AV. And if the no voters win, then there is no way in hell that labour or the tories are going to come back to this issue for at least a decade saying "oh dear, all those pro-reform people were right - we DID ask the wrong question. Let's do it again!".

Kieran_Burns

As Nick Clegg said to David Cameron:

"AV is okay, but it wouldn't be my first choice"




(apparently his PR man told him to say that)



(did you see what I did there?)

shouldbeinbed

Cuchulainn wrote:

shouldbeinbed wrote:

What makes you think voting reform won't be a dead topic for longer than a generation after 5th May whichever way it goes?

That was exactly my point - this is most likely the only chance we'll get to vote on any form of voting change in the next 20 or 30 years. The people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not full PR are just being idiots.

And just because it's not being said enough, Cameron is being a hypocritical twunt by supporting the no campaign. He is only PM because of the AV system - if the conservatives used first past the post for their leadership elections then he would not have been head of the conservatives. AV - "good enough for all of the political parties, not good enough for you plebs"

Yrs it would be David Davies v David Milliband as party leaders under FPTP, I'm waiting fir the penny to drop or for Labour to decide the moment is right to use this one on Cameron.

I think that there should be more information given that people don't have to put all preferences but can leave candidates blank, its being cleverly manipulated to ensure the squalid little compromise gets 50% results.

I will not be putting anything but 1st preference down if I'm stuck with AV.

CdrJake

Perhaps we should look at getting people to vote before changing the way we vote.

At the present time we have a worrying trend of more people voting for a contestant on some unimportant 'reality show' than in the future of this country. Without realising it these people are disinfranchanising themselves from crucial aspects of society with directly effect them and all they have to show for it is five pounds less on their phone credit and a 'celeb' with no actual talent having their five minutes of fame (you can't even say they have 15 minutes befor the next big thing comes along) before crawling back under the rock from which they came.

Yes, people need entertainment, but people also need to understand how their country works and be a part of democratic process. So get people out voting in elections before changing the system.

roger_merriman

As others have said the problem is getting people to take a intrest in politics. Personally I like voting for a local MP the party i take account for but frankly is a 2nd concern.

mr_poll

The problem you have is that as all parties have moved to the centre ground there is little to distinguish from them all - therefore interest wanes in politics. I dont agree with compulsory voting and it would be difficult to administer. Half the people in my office havent filled out the census, and have no intention of doing so this is with weeks of door knocking from the ONS, given we vote on one day it would impossible to round everyone up to vote.

My personal belief is that we make the General Election a bank holiday - admittedly lots of people would spend it in the pub as they do now however at least it gives a focus to something and enters the national conscienceness - ie we are having a day off to vote for something important - as an aside would also give no excuse to the Johnny come latelys who last year waited until 5 mins before polling close to cast their vote and got locked out.

As to AV - I agree its a poor man's PR but if you honestly think the mainstream politician's who want to keep FPTP are ever going to let this on the agenda again if the vote goes with FPTP then you niave in the extreme. Tell me this when were we last asked about voting reform? I will tell you NEVER! We have had one UK wide referenda once in the history of democracy - this was regarding Europe, nearly 40 years ago. A NO vote for AV is a vote for the status quo for the rest of your lifetime and probably you childrens too, yes AV is a compromise but for Gods sake if you want signal you want change then vote YES to AV even if you wanted AVplus or PR.

tailwindhome

Sure elections are nothing but a popularity contest anyway....

shouldbeinbed

mr_poll wrote:

The problem you have is that as all parties have moved to the centre ground there is little to distinguish from them all - therefore interest wanes in politics. I dont agree with compulsory voting and it would be difficult to administer. Half the people in my office havent filled out the census, and have no intention of doing so this is with weeks of door knocking from the ONS, given we vote on one day it would impossible to round everyone up to vote.

My personal belief is that we make the General Election a bank holiday - admittedly lots of people would spend it in the pub as they do now however at least it gives a focus to something and enters the national conscienceness - ie we are having a day off to vote for something important - as an aside would also give no excuse to the Johnny come latelys who last year waited until 5 mins before polling close to cast their vote and got locked out.

As to AV - I agree its a poor man's PR but if you honestly think the mainstream politician's who want to keep FPTP are ever going to let this on the agenda again if the vote goes with FPTP then you niave in the extreme. Tell me this when were we last asked about voting reform? I will tell you NEVER! We have had one UK wide referenda once in the history of democracy - this was regarding Europe, nearly 40 years ago. A NO vote for AV is a vote for the status quo for the rest of your lifetime and probably you childrens too, yes AV is a compromise but for Gods sake if you want signal you want change then vote YES to AV even if you wanted AVplus or PR.

But a yes vote will be equally written off as 'you've made your choice, now we're sticking with it' a Yes vote absolutely will not be a precursor to further referenda and PR, it will simply br voting for a marginally different status quo. It makes absolutely no difference which way we vote if you're hoping for a springboard for more change cos there won't be any.

shouldbeinbed

mr_poll wrote:

The problem you have is that as all parties have moved to the centre ground there is little to distinguish from them all - therefore interest wanes in politics. I dont agree with compulsory voting and it would be difficult to administer. Half the people in my office havent filled out the census, and have no intention of doing so this is with weeks of door knocking from the ONS, given we vote on one day it would impossible to round everyone up to vote.

My personal belief is that we make the General Election a bank holiday - admittedly lots of people would spend it in the pub as they do now however at least it gives a focus to something and enters the national conscienceness - ie we are having a day off to vote for something important - as an aside would also give no excuse to the Johnny come latelys who last year waited until 5 mins before polling close to cast their vote and got locked out.

As to AV - I agree its a poor man's PR but if you honestly think the mainstream politician's who want to keep FPTP are ever going to let this on the agenda again if the vote goes with FPTP then you niave in the extreme. Tell me this when were we last asked about voting reform? I will tell you NEVER! We have had one UK wide referenda once in the history of democracy - this was regarding Europe, nearly 40 years ago. A NO vote for AV is a vote for the status quo for the rest of your lifetime and probably you childrens too, yes AV is a compromise but for Gods sake if you want signal you want change then vote YES to AV even if you wanted AVplus or PR.

But a yes vote will be equally written off as 'you've made your choice, now we're sticking with it' a Yes vote absolutely will not be a precursor to further referenda and PR, it will simply br voting for a marginally different status quo. It makes absolutely no difference which way we vote if you're hoping for a springboard for more change cos there won't be any.

mr_poll

Couldnt disagree more - the argument will be - the public didnt even want AV they wanted the status quo so no more discussions.Yep we will have AV for a good while but eventually the debate will move back to PR and the evidence will be that the public wanted a change and that was their only option.

Also the i aint voting cause I cant get what I want argument is the same reason for getting rid of FPTP - where i used to live is a safe as houses seat for a particular party. There is no point voting because i wont get what i want as the since the constituency was created it has always been one party (except a 6month period where a bi-election was called and the party was so unpopular they got squeezed out, but returned at the next General Election).

shouldbeinbed

Hmm, not convinced by that at all, if its a no vote the pro change lobby will counter your proposed argument with 'they rejected AV because they want full PR' and will keep up the pressure for that like kids mithering for sweets in Tesco even after you've said no.
A yes vote will effectively silence them for much longer as they'll have had their little victory and will have to sit and wait for the (non) effects to show before being able to reopen the debate with any credibility. They will win the battle at the cost of shortening the war.

I have already said in this thread I'll be voting (always do) I just don't think it'll make a scrap of difference either way & I've lived in staunch Tory & staunch Labour areas and have felt my vote to be pointless either way as a guaranteed win or lose, but that is the natyre of the country. AV won't change that, you'd need to start uprooting dyed in the wool Tories to live Labour strongholds & vice verca rather than tinkering with the ballot format.