Descending skills

neeb

I'm in Mallocra at the moment (yup, sad git that I am I'm sat here in the hotel bar with the laptop & wifi looking at Bike Radar... ) Absolutely amazing so far, my first proper experience of (relatively) long climbs.

However I've quickly realised I have a serious deficiency as a competent road cyclist. I can't descend! Did Sa Calobra today and while I was passing loads of serious looking Germans in club jerseys on the ascents, those same people were flying past me again on the descents... I thought I was OK at going downhill, but I now realise that's only when I can see the bottom, there are no hairpins with weird cambers at 11% gradient, there isn't a strong sidewind and dodgy surfaces, and it doesn't last for 15mins..

The speeds that a few people who flew past me on the corners were doing just seemed insane. Is this something I can reasonably expect to be able to learn at the age of 44? Even if so, I can't help wondering if it is actually beyond my acceptable risk threshold even if I could gain the skills.

A significant factor might be that this is my first proper outdoor cycling since October (snow & ice in Helsinki has kept me on the trainer over the winter), so my bike "feel" is probably a little rusty this early in the season. Also, my saddle to bar drop is pretty large - could that be a factor?

MikeWW

I think descending is the hardest. Was out with some younger guys the other week in the Peak district- they were hitting nearly 50 mph on the descents and I was getting nervous approaching 40. I think it is probably more to do with perceived risk than anything else although in reality coming off at 40 v 50 is going to hurt about the same. I think the more you do the easier it gets-not sure the saddle/bar drop will have much impact

Omar Little

I am generally a fairly decent descender (although i say this while off the bike with broken ribs and fractured elbow due to falling off on a fairly gentle downhill!) and while technique plays a big part once you know the basics then so much is about confidence and that is harder to get than getting the basics of technique right. When feeling confident you will naturally be much more relaxed on the bike, so not holding the bars too tight, not braking too harshly at the wrong place, not over correcting slight mistakes in line choice and things that happen when not feeling at your best. It is a great feeling having the confidence and getting it right, it is what mountain bikers would refer to as flow you just feel at one with your bike and it feels so easy and leads to a virtous cycle - often the easier and more comfortable it feels the easier it is. But the same descent, the same skill level but not feeling confident then it can be a bit of a nightmare and the lack of confidence leads to things feeling jittery.

I wouldnt beat yourself up about it too much the ones that overtook you might know the descent very well whereas it is new to you. They'll have to put alot more work in to beat you up the hill, you just need to go down the hill a few more times to know the bends a bit better and things will improve

springtide9

Falling off at speed is going to hurt. Don't know about the figures for cycling, but being knocked over by a car the survival rate from 25->40mph is massive. Unfortunately most road cyclists don't wear full body armour like downhill mountain bikers!

a lot of it is about bottle and as above, perceived risk (think the bike is more stable than most people think). But, the risk of crashing is still there. When I was 20 - if I came off and broke a few ribs, I'd have a few weeks off work and wouldn't think much off it.
As you get older things change... you have family and more serious work commitments etc, although the risk is the same, the impact to life is different.

Someone once told me, races are won on the up hills not the down. Not sure how much truth there is in it, but seems pretty plausible to me in terms of time in the saddle.

FransJacques

"Someone once told me, races are won on the up hills not the down. Not sure how much truth there is in it, but seems pretty plausible to me in terms of time in the saddle."

You need to watch more pro cycling mate. Riders who get dropped on climbs can close huge gaps downhill, puttting them back in contention. Just ask Paolo Salvodelli, who didn't win too much but was a demon. Also, a lot of good riders who could have won more either crashed on downhills or got caught:
- Zulle climbed well, dropped Indurain but was a poor descender so was only ever a Tour contender, not a winner
- Julich fell and crashed out of the tour on a downhill the year after he got 3rd
- Beloki, say no more, it ended his career

Cornering can be learned but giving into speed on a bike is the same thing as pointing your skis straight down a hill and tucking -> you have to be able to take the speed and not panic or get knotted up in your stomach. Treat every corner like a F1 driver and start way wide and turn in towards the apex which makes your angle of turn wider hence less tight which should allow you to carry more speed. This takes lots of practice to get right. Tricks like not looking in front of you but as far left or right at the limit of what you can see as the road appears from around the bend helps. This also naturally makes your body lean more which is a side benefit.

Braking is key: brake late, brake together equally front and rear before the turn, but as you turn in, let go the rear brake (this is very important!) and if you're concerned, feather the front brake. This is backwards for people who MTB but your rear wheel will wash out if you do rear-only braking mid-corner.

As you finish the corner, aim for the outside of the lane, as far as you dare go to keep your turn radius as wide as possible.

Your ears are your guide to what's around the hairpin you can't see - expect the worse. In Mallorca I've had sheep standing in the middle of the road. It's best if you can follow 75-100 feet behind a car, because you'll see it's brake lights go on hard if it meets a bus or something it cannot pass. Don't get too close to cars b/c a) they can brake a lot quicker than we can, b) as you get better, you'll generally catch them and they'll hold you up. In one etape descent there was a Velo Mag VIP car which was in my way and I was a bit too chicken to pass it b/c the road was so busy I opted to stop and answer nature's call. I continued un-impeeded and still re-caught the car before the bottom of the descent.

If your tyres are too hard this makes cornering more sketchy. If you're bigger, think of practicing on 25mm tyres, the contact patch is a lot greater than 23s. Finally, if you like soft compounds, PR3 Grips and the new front and rear specific PR3 Optimums have soft compounds.

There's lots more to say about body positioning on the bike, and whether to have your knee in or out but frankly that's the easy stuff to remember.

mattshrops

dont think id be using the front brake whilst turning in.
if the rear starts to go it could be saved ,if the front goes youre down.
in an ideal world you get down to correct speed just before turning in, but if i need any extra i use the rear

unixnerd

if the rear starts to go it could be saved ,if the front goes youre down.

I came off a few months ago when I locked the back (before I started to turn), the bit at the bottom of the hill near the corner turned out to be covered in an oily gritty film with bugger all grip.

I'll admit to be a rubbish descender unless it's fairly straight on a road know. Only one that scares me up here is Cairngorm. Not only is it damn steep but there's a tight hairpin at one point. I tend to slow down well in advance in case I get there and can't reduce speed quickly enough. I'm sure it's different on better roads but there's too many potholes, frostheave, grit, etc on the roads up here and the prospect of coming off the bike at 45mph with nothing but some thin lycra on isn't funny. That said I do need to up my game a bit and practice more.

I was going north down Slochd summit once at about 45 having a great time as I know the roads OK and it's pretty straight. Got into the valley at the bottom to find a big crosswind running and got the fright of my life.

rls

I think like most things that you can overthink descending and scare yourself before you even get on the hill. A huge part of it is having the confidence that the bike doesn't just crash, there is always a reason. To start with I would ensure that you have a well maintained bike and then work on reading the road ahead, keeping your vision up so that you spot any hazards as soon as possible and can react smoothly, with plenty of time. The speed will then gradually come as you build up your confidence, just don't expect to go whizzing around blind bends at an unreasonable speed as that tractor/sheep/pedestrian around the corner will eventually catch you out.

Of course, bad luck is always going to play a part i.e. a bad puncture on a high speed bend, but it sn't very likely and if we all spent time dwelling on the bad we wouldn't get out of bed, let alone ride our bicycle's on roads!

Richard

neeb

FransJacques wrote:

Cornering can be (etc)..

Lots of great advice there, thanks!

I think the main thing is that I just need more practice. I'm living in southern Finland were there aren't really any hills to speak of, just rolling ups and downs. Steep downhills are usually short and often finish with another short uphill. in that technically trivial situation I'm quite confident tucking into the drops and charging down at 45mph. Long, very twisting, steep descents in Mallorca were a bit of a revelation however! Most of the time I was only doing about 25mph just because there was always a blind corner coming up. At one point on the descent of Col de Soller (towards Soller) I was even overtaken by a couple of mountain bikers, which was seriously humiliating! The roadie who I had been outpacing on the ascent eventually overtook me on the straight descent towards Soller itself. I should have been able to go faster on that straighter bit, but I think my nerves were shot by then... Got my own back though by racing a couple of Germans all of the way up Puig Major and distancing them just before the top..

neeb

rls wrote:

To start with I would ensure that you have a well maintained bike

Actually that's one thing that was going through my mind when I was descending. I look after my bike pretty well but I have this (possibly irrational) fear that the front brake cable is going to slip through the bolt when I'm braking really hard. Campagnolo brakes specify a torque of 5Nm for the cable bolt, which always seems rather small to me. Sometimes when setting up the bike I have torqued the bolt to this setting and then when testing the brakes and pulling really hard the cable has slipped. Not sure if that means the cable needs to be replaced, the bolt needs to be tighter or the bolt washer is worn (it always seems to get a groove worn in it..)

Down the Road

Rule 85:

All descents shall be undertaken at speeds commonly regarded as “ludicrous” or “insane” by those less talented. In addition all corners will be traversed in an outside-inside-outside trajectory, with the outer leg extended and the inner leg canted appropriately (but not too far as to replicate a motorcycle racer, for you are not one), to assist in balance and creation of an appealing aesthetic. Brakes are generally not to be employed, but if absolutely necessary, only just prior to the corner.

ut_och_cykla

I think the flamme rouge website has a useful bit on descending - things to think about anyway. Awareness focus & observation are mostly whats needed (I assume everyone rides on a well maintained bike with brakes that do thier job) Road position is crucial - some /many so called blind corners are not blind if you get closer to/overthe middle of the road before you get to the corner to extend your line of sight when it is clear to do so - this avoids nasty surprises like fallen trees rocks, massive uphill peleton, sheep, goats, mad locals in overloaded cars etc.
It does take practice - but confidence is the key. Its like skiing I'm told - don't look at what you don't want to hit - look where you want to go and you will get there!

rick_chasey

Press hard on the outside pedal, don't brake when cornering, and have big balls.


S'all you need to do.



Oh, and avoid braking as much as you can.

unixnerd

The comment about braking is worth elaborating on.

Each tyre can only do 100% of something before losing grip and sliding. So you can do 100% braking in straight line or put all it's grip into cornering without braking. That 100% is a relative term of course, the absolute value is dependant on the co-efficient of friction between tyre and road and is affected by grit, road surface, temperature, load on each tyre, water, etc.

But if you brake whilst cornering you may be asking 110% of the tyre and it'll skid. Of course you can brake in a corner and not skid, but you'll have less than 100% of grip available to change direction so you must change the bike's direction more slowly, larger cornering radius.

In practice what this means is that just as in a car you should do all your braking before you commence your turn.

You're more likely to lock the back wheel than the front, despite the fact there's more of your weight on it. This is because the bicycle's centre of gravity is quite high up, so when you brake the weight transfers to (or acts through) the front wheel much more than the back. The more weight on a wheel the more braking you can do before it stalls and you go from static to sliding friction (which is usually lower).

It's worth noting that the weight transfer isn't instantaneous. It depends on a number of factors including how soft the front suspension is (even a road bike fork has some damping effect as do your tyres and spokes). If you have powerful brakes and just pull them full on immediately you'll lock the front wheel far more easily. You need to apply the brake fairly hard (which lets the weight transfer) and then a fraction of a second later apply full braking power. It's more of an issue on mtbs and cars as the time constant is larger due to the softer front end.

Sorry, the engineer part of me burst out just then. I'll put him back in his box immediately.

neeb

The more weight on a wheel the more braking you can do before it stalls and you go from static to sliding friction (which is usually lower).

How does body weight influence the ease of technical descending, if at all? I'm pretty light.

I'm guessing that more weight means you have more braking power before stalling as above, but that more weight also means more power is needed to decelerate, so the two cancel out?

Scrumple

voila

http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_factsheets/2006/descend.htm

Scrumple

pdf in above link

- useful for those who want a quick pictoral guide without the read

http://www.flammerouge.je/images/factsheets/Corner%20Schematic.pdf

mattshrops

Scrumple wrote:

voila

http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_factsheets/2006/descend.htm

worth reading that, cheers

rick_chasey

Just don't overthink it. After all, you're going quite fast.

Everyone scrubs of speed mid corner - we all occasionally mis-read a corner or entry speed.

You jsut don't want to consciously ride your bike like a rally car - i.e. properly braking whislt turning in.

Pressing on the outside pedal for whatever reason really works to get you going round fast - as long as you have the balls to give it a good go.

Ultimately, the main difference at an amateur level between decending fast or not is how little or much you brake.

I know people who brake for corners I wouldn't - I decend faster than they do.

JonEdwards

I'm not the greatest roadie ever - either up or down, but I'm a pretty decent mtber and there are some crossover tips that seem to work pretty well.

1) Float above the saddle - don't sit on it. This helps with 2 things. The first is that your legs and arms absorb a lot of the road shock, which means your head shakes around less, which is vital for that feeling of control. Your ears control your sense of balance and if your heads rattling around every which way, then they send the message to your brain that it's getting scary. The second bit is that it means that the weighting the outside pedal bit actually works better. The idea is that you're applying the weight to the bike straight over the tyre contact patches. If you're sat down, you've taken a fair bit of weight and put it a long way from the contact patch.

2) Descend on the drops (natch). Puts more weight on the front wheel where you want grip. To turn, push down on the inside bar, and relax your outside arm, so that you end up leaning the bike, not yourself. Again, (in conjunction with not sitting) you end up stood with most of your weight over the tyre contact patch, which means most grip, but also if the bike does start to slide, that you're balanced over it, not heavily off centre.

Both these techniques are much more subtle to look at than on an mtb with a low saddle and big bars, but from personal experience, they both seem to work pretty well.

I'd also suggets that braking mid corner on road tyres at road speeds is a bit of a nogo... Sure sometimes you have to, but best avoided.

Richj

I have just got back from Mallorca, also my first experience of longer climbs. I was riding with an experienced cyclist, who had been to Mallorca several times and is an ex-elite racer. He just told me to relax, look up and have confidence in the bike. We didn't go mad and I always felt safe and we were descending much faster than anyone around us. I was amazed just how fast you could actually go round a corner when you didn't panic and just let the bike roll through the corners.

That said I did find the descent of the Col de Soller almost painful, so many tight hairpins so close together.

I think there is a nack to it, picking the right lines, but you can over-analyse. Just relaxing helped so much.

patchy

Agree with all of the above - I'd also add a piece of advice that I've carried over from archery which is equally relevant.

Rather than looking at where the bike is going and trying to work out how to put it where you want it, look at where you want it to go and rely more on reflexes. Your body (and the bike) will follow more often than not. You may not get it 100% all of the time, but you'll get it 90% of the time and the other 10% comes with experience.

neeb

Loads of useful advice, thanks! That flamme rouge article was particularly interesting.

Now I want to get back to Mallorca or somewhere else mountainous to have another go...

neeb

I'd also add a piece of advice that I've carried over from archery which is equally relevant.

Rather than looking at where the bike is going and trying to work out how to put it where you want it, look at where you want it to go and rely more on reflexes.

Also works when playing pool, something I've always been better at when mildly drunk. Don't think I'll try the latter for descending though...

JonEdwards

Doh - yep. That's the single most important piece of advice out there.

You go where you're looking. Simple as that. As you move your head your shoulders naturally follow, which obviously effects steering input - even slight movemnets make a difference.

So look ROUND the corner. Not just into the apex of it.

mattshrops

thats how they train you to corner on a motorbike. plus if you see something on the road that you want to avoid DONT look at it cos youll probably hit it, look at the route round it and hey presto.

twotyred

Something I learned from mountain biking. You don't use your hands to steer you use your hips. The bike will go where your centre of mass is pointing so point your hips in the direction you want to turn, press down on the bars on the side you want to turn to and the turn will happen naturally.