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Rest Days are not happy days

KaiseKaise Posts: 2,498
Morning all

I have been following a detailed training programme for the past 10 weeks and for the past 3 days i have been on "active rest" which means i basically do nothing except ride the 5 flat, dull miles to work.

Is it just me or when your training do rest days make you feel Lathargic, Unfit, Restless that kind of thing?

i feel more tired now than i usually do and i am dreading tonights strength training session in the gym!

Thoughts on rest days please

Posts

  • fish156fish156 Posts: 496
    kaiser83 wrote:
    Is it just me or when your training do rest days make you feel Lathargic, Unfit, Restless that kind of thing?
    +1

    Currently on an easy week :( . It'll reap benefits when I get back to it though :D .
  • + another one.

    i always feel like total poo on my rest weeks.

    cake always helps me feel a bit better though!
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    Don't really take that many days off training unless I am ill. Normally train at least 5 days of the week every week. Rest days are incoporated within that programme, but 3 days active rest, unless you were extremely tired before starting them, that just seems way too extreme.
  • UpTheWallUpTheWall Posts: 207
    Imho recovery days are really important, but I believe in active recovery.

    I.e. a gentle ride, preferably hill free, not too long, keeping your heart rate under 70%.

    All the training plans I've seen have a good 3-4 recovery days in a week.
  • freehubfreehub Posts: 4,257
    I do rest days off the bike cause I don't like to crawl around.
  • twotyredtwotyred Posts: 822
    Three rest days in a row seems like overkill. I too am following a structured training plan which consists of 5 days a week with a couple of rest days. The rest days are always taken singly. I'm always glad when a rest day comes round as I feel I need the rest and I always feel better afterwards.
  • Tom ButcherTom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    Personally I don't find any kind of problems with rest days - I don't feel lethargic, unfit, restless etc. I do find that enforced rest through illness frustrating if it goes beyond a few days, especially if it's over a week, because it feels like your fitness is slipping away and there is nothing you can do about it but that's a different thing.

    If you are doing a gym session it's not really a rest day anyway is it - more a non-cycling day.

    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • PokerfacePokerface Posts: 7,960
    +1 for rest days making you feel tired, etc.

    Just had a big competition and had to do a lot of rest/tapering leading up to it. Wanted to ride my bike but was kept off it (or minimal efforts while on it) for the better part of a week.

    And while I hated it - it paid massive dividends when it mattered.

    I normally have one full rest day (off the bike) and one active rest day per week - train hard the other days. But I really do hate that one day off the bike!
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    UpTheWall wrote:
    All the training plans I've seen have a good 3-4 recovery days in a week.

    Bloody hell is there any point in training, best you don't see mine then. I thought mine was slightly relaxed with 2 rest days, I would happily make do with just one rest day.

    Even my 'easy week' will have 4 days training, and that includes 2 races, so with a pre race session that will mean still only 2 days off the bike, though that may include commuting to work as well, not sure yet.

    As Pokerface has said I will probably have very easy weeks prior to important races, but even then I would still train/race 3 of the days. If I was only training 3 or 4 days a week regularly I would never be as fit as I currently am.

    Your body will tell you when you need rest as well, just listen to it. This works both ways if you feel recovered, or that the rest days are hindering you, either do some training, or if you have a coach explain it to your coach and come up with another way of working.
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    SBezza wrote:
    UpTheWall wrote:
    All the training plans I've seen have a good 3-4 recovery days in a week.

    Bloody hell is there any point in training, best you don't see mine then. I thought mine was slightly relaxed with 2 rest days, I would happily make do with just one rest day.

    Got to agree, if you're have 3/4 days off a week after a significant block of consistent training (ie not just starting out from being unfit) then you're almost certainly significantly underselling yourself compared to what you could be doing. Or are a massive "weekend warrior" and having single workouts which are essentially too tough and cause more damage than fitness build up they're worth.
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • KaiseKaise Posts: 2,498
    on monday i did a beginners track session so that was something, but nothing major in terms of excercise. this is day 3 and tonight is a strength session followed by pyramid running session on the treadmill, so really it has been two days and not 3.

    The enforced active recovery days are apparently due to me hitting a peak in my training and then starting on increasing the intenstiy over the next few weeks and then taper to the next event.

    I was asking more about the lathargic and resless feeling more than anything? i wonder if there is something in the obssesive compulsive thing.....

    I am the fittest i have ever been and really enjoying training i have just found the past 2 days very strange off the back of two very intensive weeks with 1 active rest day in the middle of them.

    The plan i am sticking to usually looks like this
    Monday - Swimming (8 x 50m warm up, 6x100m at medium to fast pace breast stroke, 4x50 cool down easy front crawl)
    Tuesday - Strength training (Squats, Deadlifts, Single Leg Steps, Upright Rows, Core Stab)
    Wednesday - 45 min easy paced running (distance not overly important but aim for 7k) / Brick session (run - bike - run)
    Thursday - Turbo session (1 hr including speed intervals and seated climb simulations)
    Friday - Hill Reps (3mins up easy, steady walk down x5, increased pace for 5 efforts with jog down)
    Saturday - Rest
    Sunday - 2 hour steady ride including two reasonable hill climbs

    not thats kind of an overview, not the full detail but you get the idea

    what are everyones thoughts??
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    kaiser83 wrote:
    The plan i am sticking to usually looks like this
    Monday - Swimming (8 x 50m warm up, 6x100m at medium to fast pace breast stroke, 4x50 cool down easy front crawl)
    Tuesday - Strength training (Squats, Deadlifts, Single Leg Steps, Upright Rows, Core Stab)
    Wednesday - 45 min easy paced running (distance not overly important but aim for 7k) / Brick session (run - bike - run)
    Thursday - Turbo session (1 hr including speed intervals and seated climb simulations)
    Friday - Hill Reps (3mins up easy, steady walk down x5, increased pace for 5 efforts with jog down)
    Saturday - Rest
    Sunday - 2 hour steady ride including two reasonable hill climbs

    It's a light training load, Are you new to endurance sport?
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • KaiseKaise Posts: 2,498
    i wouldnt say new, completed a few duathlons and a few half marathons but nothing major in distance wise, oh and i have cycled bristol to amsterdam in 5 days.

    I wouldnt have said i was the endurance build either having had a full check and being 16st10, 6ft with 12-13% body fat

    As a said thats the find of format for the training and then last week was a lot more than that with swimming in the mornings before work and the sunday ride followed by a 8k run.

    My aim isnt to complete an ironman, well not yet anyway, just to do fit to get better times in the duathlons (off road and on road) and get a sub 55min 10k and a sub 1hr55 half marathon.
  • UpTheWallUpTheWall Posts: 207
    jibberjim wrote:
    SBezza wrote:
    UpTheWall wrote:
    All the training plans I've seen have a good 3-4 recovery days in a week.

    Bloody hell is there any point in training, best you don't see mine then. I thought mine was slightly relaxed with 2 rest days, I would happily make do with just one rest day.

    Got to agree, if you're have 3/4 days off a week after a significant block of consistent training (ie not just starting out from being unfit) then you're almost certainly significantly underselling yourself compared to what you could be doing. Or are a massive "weekend warrior" and having single workouts which are essentially too tough and cause more damage than fitness build up they're worth.

    I never said days off, I said recovery days - active recovery.
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    UpTheWall wrote:
    jibberjim wrote:
    SBezza wrote:
    UpTheWall wrote:
    All the training plans I've seen have a good 3-4 recovery days in a week.

    Bloody hell is there any point in training, best you don't see mine then. I thought mine was slightly relaxed with 2 rest days, I would happily make do with just one rest day.

    Got to agree, if you're have 3/4 days off a week after a significant block of consistent training (ie not just starting out from being unfit) then you're almost certainly significantly underselling yourself compared to what you could be doing. Or are a massive "weekend warrior" and having single workouts which are essentially too tough and cause more damage than fitness build up they're worth.

    I never said days off, I said recovery days - active recovery.

    Even as active recovery 3-4 days is most of the week, you just don't need this much rest even during a 'rest week'. A rest week is normally a decrease in the volume but maintaining the intensity so I would still train/race 5 days of the week, unless it was tapering for a major event. Active recovery is essentially a rest day, some ride very easy, some take a complete day off the bike.

    For the OP, I don't suffer from rest days, normally they are needed and feel quite glad to have them. It is probably your body compensating for the previous workload.
  • jgsijgsi Posts: 5,038
    . A rest week is normally a decrease in the volume but maintaining the intensity

    As is often the case in fitness matters someone else argues the complete opposite..
    carmichaels' version is same volume/decrease intensities
  • Tom ButcherTom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    Part of it is knowing your own body. Last year I went relatively well off 4 sessions a week - chain gang, 2*20 turbo or rollers, long fairly hard ride and then a couple of hours hilly just on feel but usually fairly steady.

    I found I could hit the hard sessions hard doing that - other times where I've tried to do more I have either suffered from fatigue or little illnesses that have meant I had no consistency in my training - which is pretty much how this year is turning out.

    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • TomBombadilTomBombadil Posts: 263
    Re Rest Days - also think fuel:

    To court controversy I would suggest if you are feeling very listless you actually may not be resting enough or that you are not eating well enough!

    Looking at your schedule and how you describe yourself - it's not so tough, so my guess would be the food - quality is everything. You need to make sure you are eating enough post long rides/sessions and you need to look closely at the quality of the food. Bad fuel will make your system run badly and make recovery hard/ineffective. Nocte makes a good evening supplement on hard days

    Good fuel = good performance & good recovery.

    Tom
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    JGSI wrote:
    . As is often the case in fitness matters someone else argues the complete opposite..
    carmichaels' version is same volume/decrease intensities

    No doubt that is the Time Crunched plan though. If I am normally doing 13+ hours a week, and wanted a rest week, I wouldn't still do 13 hours, as there would be no resting. I would cut down to 6-8 hours and drop the volume sessions and focus on intensity.

    If you are only doing 4 -6 hours a week, I doubt you need a rest week, and hence why the volume doesn't change, and to be honest with that loading there is not point reducing intensity either.
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    kaiser83 wrote:
    My aim isnt to complete an ironman, well not yet anyway, just to do fit to get better times in the duathlons (off road and on road) and get a sub 55min 10k and a sub 1hr55 half marathon.

    Do you have time to do more?

    Even if you don't, I'd drop the weights now unless you're doing the weights for the look. They're not helping your performance - with your background you'll have lots of strength, at the moment your limiters are likely to be very very aerobic of nature.

    You only ride twice a week, when you have strong legs (even carrying a little extra weight - fat or upper body muscle) you'll see quite a big transfer of fitness from cycling to running without needing the cycling - however when you're carrying that extra weight you'll need to keep running to keep robust enough to run. But having a good 1 hour threshold bike session on tuesdays in place of strength training, and some cycling on monday or saturday which are almost rest days in themselves. Would probably see some good gains.

    Increasing the length or intensity of your sunday ride would also likely help you reach the running goals. With only few kilos of weightloss cycling only training took me from a 53minute 10km to a 39minute 10km in under 2 years. The reduction appropriate to the weightloss was only a couple of minutes of that, the rest was all hard cycling miles.

    Your plan appears to be a pretty easy plan though, and I'd question why that is?
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • KaiseKaise Posts: 2,498
    jibberjim wrote:
    Do you have time to do more?

    Even if you don't, I'd drop the weights now unless you're doing the weights for the look. They're not helping your performance - with your background you'll have lots of strength, at the moment your limiters are likely to be very very aerobic of nature.

    You only ride twice a week, when you have strong legs (even carrying a little extra weight - fat or upper body muscle) you'll see quite a big transfer of fitness from cycling to running without needing the cycling - however when you're carrying that extra weight you'll need to keep running to keep robust enough to run. But having a good 1 hour threshold bike session on tuesdays in place of strength training, and some cycling on monday or saturday which are almost rest days in themselves. Would probably see some good gains.

    Increasing the length or intensity of your sunday ride would also likely help you reach the running goals. With only few kilos of weightloss cycling only training took me from a 53minute 10km to a 39minute 10km in under 2 years. The reduction appropriate to the weightloss was only a couple of minutes of that, the rest was all hard cycling miles.

    Your plan appears to be a pretty easy plan though, and I'd question why that is?

    Morning Jim

    yeah i have thought about dropping the weights side of things but i have found that they have given me extra strength and helped with the endurance as they have been stacked before a 6k minimum run. But as you rightly pointed out there is something off getting the look that i like doing.

    You say about committing more time but i have read a fair number of books that say doing the hours is not the important thing, its training with purpose and intensity. Now i leave the gym feeling like i have been run over, every time. I push myself to my limit on my rides averaging 18-19mph everytime.

    This sunday i am doing a 38mile ride and i am aiming for the 2hrs it usually takes.

    Last nights session was really good, i've increased the weight on the squats i am doing and the rest of the weights were good. Last nights 6k took me 31mins which was my fastest time so i am improving, maybe the days rest was needed after all.

    TomBombadil:
    Good fuel = good performance & good recovery.

    This is something i really need to look at, good with breakfast with museli or porridge, lunch a simple salad with chicken/fish and pasta, no dressing and then evening i usually have roasted veg with fish, no carb and after training a protien shake for recovery
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    kaiser83 wrote:
    You say about committing more time but i have read a fair number of books that say doing the hours is not the important thing, its training with purpose and intensity. Now i leave the gym feeling like i have been run over, every time. I push myself to my limit on my rides averaging 18-19mph everytime.

    You do need intensity you are correct, but you also need to put the hours in as well. Even for the cycling part you would expect to make aerobic gains over a 3-5 year period, and there is not much you can do to short cut that, just doing high intensity stuff won't make it happen any quicker, I would have thought the loading would still be low, and hence it might even take longer. If you have the time to add extra hours I would do so, as generally the more hours you do of an activity the better you will become at that activity.

    You are obviously trying to fit 3 disicplines into your training plan, and obviously this will mean you can't put the same amount of hours into just one activity as say a runner or a cyclist would.

    What about doing a swim session followed by a run afterwards, or do a 2 hour ride followed by a run, as this is what you need to do at an event.

    Doing the 2 hour ride hardish is OK, but you do need to mix it up, try some longer rides as well this will help the aerobic base, though the 2 hour ride will be doing this as well. I wouldn't worry too much about the hill repeats etc unless you know you are going to be racing on a hilly course, try some threshold work, as by increasing your threshold power, this will help with all aspects of the cycling you will be doing whilst competing.

    Jim might have a better idea of what sort of training stress you are currently subjecting yourself to, but I doubt it is that high.
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    edited March 2011
    SBezza wrote:
    Jim might have a better idea of what sort of training stress you are currently subjecting yourself to, but I doubt it is that high.

    It's pretty small - if we ignore the swimming and strength training (since they don't contribute much to the fitness for running/cycling) then we just have 4 sessions:

    Wednesday - 45 min easy paced running (distance not overly important but aim for 7k)
    this would give 40-50 TSS, less if you don't get to 7km.

    Thursday - Turbo session (1 hr including speed intervals and seated climb simulations)
    this would give 60-90 TSS. Depending on exactly what.

    Friday - Hill Reps (3mins up easy, steady walk down x5, increased pace for 5 efforts with jog down)
    this would give 40-50 TSS, although maybe a little more if the warm up / cool down is more than short.

    Sunday - 2 hour steady ride including two reasonable hill climbs
    this would give 80-140 TSS

    So that's 220 - 330 TSS a week. So less than 50 a day, an amount which I don't think needs any rest from, it's not a significant training load - ie the load from just living life is similar to that generated from the training.

    Lots of hours is not the key to training. But you do need to do some load!
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • KaiseKaise Posts: 2,498
    cheers,

    this sunday i am going out on a 3 hour ride so that will help with the hours thing, in fact i can go out for longer just need to plan a route.

    i know what you mean about putting more hours in, and i am not shying away from it as such more that work gets in the way a little bit, along with life.

    tonights swimming session just got upgraded from 1k to 2.5k

    need to get serious about this if i am going to do well in anything
  • KaiseKaise Posts: 2,498
    thanks for the advice jim, you must have posted just before me.

    i am going to keep with the plan i have as copied what you wrote in to an e-mail to my trianer, a good friend so she wouldnt be offended by me asking for a second opinion, and

    "she simply said everyone has an opinion on training, i have got you to this point i 12 weeks and its working pretty well so just see how it goes, dont worry i'll get you quicker and further"

    so i think i will just stick with what i am doing by her plan, after all she has completed a fair few ironman comps and came 2nd in the liverpool tri one year (female cat) so hopefully knows what she is doing

    i think the increase in hour will come soon anyway
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