Nearly 4k for a 105 build??????
Comments
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Down the Road...I guess you either own/work for/are affiliated to the bike shop in your profile link who happen to sell Trek bikes. This would explain the rubbish you continually spout and why you slate certain products for no apparent reason.Down the Road wrote:You are idiots!!!!!!!!!!
Bike is an Ultegra Build. 105 cassette which is a fast wear out item anyway is neither here nor there.
OCLV frames take over 20 man hours to construct It is not some blow in the bag Monocoque frame .
Frame alone costs £2600 so the price for a bike with a £800 groupset and £400 wheels for a frame that is still in use in the pro's today is not that bad a value for money. A Dogma cost that for the frame and it is Taiwanese"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college! " - Homer0 -
Wrong Just know the facts that's all
Brands that I review badly deserve it despite what numpties who have to fill column inches with advertorial write.
I have no bias as to brands and have probably ridden more bikes than you've had hot dinners so I can tell you my opinion if you don't like it is your loss and your bad buying decision.
remember bike mags only care about ADVERTISERS and will never upset them with a bad review. The big retailers EMPLOY people to put positive opinions on websites not all you read on the internet is TRUE.Racing is life - everything else is just waiting0 -
So, you do own/work for the bike shop then. Explains an awful lot. No wonder you're not a big fan of Specialized! Gotta keep flogging the Treks!Down the Road wrote:Wrong Just know the facts that's all
Brands that I review badly deserve it despite what numpties who have to fill column inches with advertorial write.
I have no bias as to brands and have probably ridden more bikes than you've had hot dinners so I can tell you my opinion if you don't like it is your loss and your bad buying decision.
remember bike mags only care about ADVERTISERS and will never upset them with a bad review. The big retailers EMPLOY people to put positive opinions on websites not all you read on the internet is TRUE.
I agree with you as to magazine reviews though."That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college! " - Homer0 -
wildmoustache wrote:I LOL'd at the Cipollini frame price in C+ ... £4k+ for a frameset from an upstart manufacturer offering nothing special ... WTF? Put 105 on that, some cheap wheels etc. and you'll get to £5k
How do you know it's nothing special? Have you ridden it?0 -
I'm doing a self build this year, buying frame separately, groupset & wheels.
Ive gone for the Trek Madone 6.9SSL which retails at £3100 for frame & forks but so far paying cash for a frame ive got it down to £2500, thats £600 discount..... Ive been cheeky with LBS because I know how much the bike shops buy the 6.9SSL frame for.... IE 6.9ssl bought in £1500. 6.2 bought in £1000..... So this gave me something to barter with.
My build will be:-
Frame & Forks £2500
Groupset Dura Ace £1000
Wheels DA 7850 CL £5000 -
Oh dear, just read through this thread and found out that I must be a XXXX because I own a Spesh
, need a beer now to cheer me up 0 -
andyrr wrote:wildmoustache wrote:Ford Cortinas are now becoming cool and in some cases appreciating in value.
Mondeo is more like it.
I LOL'd at the Cipollini frame price in C+ ... £4k+ for a frameset from an upstart manufacturer offering nothing special ... WTF? Put 105 on that, some cheap wheels etc. and you'll get to £5k
I also baulked at the price of Cipo's frame - his reason/excuse is at least that they are NOT some brand-x frame that he is sticking his own name on with some garish paint, it did very much sound as if he was involved in designing/refining the frame over a period of time and then the frames are built in small numbers. A fairly high cost invovled there. May be once they are at a stage where the frames can be churned out that production moves to a cheaper location yet the retail costs remains high but that is for the furture for that brand.
You are absolutely right that they are one-offs and that helps explain the costs - i.e. Mario's mates paid E50 per hour compared to the more efficient guy in Taiwan on E10 per hour. Perhaps when Mario drags himself away from the mirror / threesomes he too charges his time to the frames?
BUT, although it explains the cost, it doesn't mean it's a better bike. In fact I'd wager the Trek 6.9SSL is a far better frame than anything Mario and his mates holed up in an Umbrian villa somewhere can churn out.
Back OT, the high end Treks are pricey but they are also very good. Among the best frames out there.0 -
wildmoustache wrote:BUT, although it explains the cost, it doesn't mean it's a better bike. In fact I'd wager the Trek 6.9SSL is a far better frame than anything Mario and his mates holed up in an Umbrian villa somewhere can churn out.
Wow :shock:
Did he turn you down for dinner or something? You seem to have a real hard on for him. As you've ignored my previous question, I'll assume you've not ridden any of his frames; if that is the case, why slag them (and him) off? You're really not in a position to make a judgement either way are you?0 -
Down the Road wrote:The big retailers EMPLOY people to put positive opinions on websites not all you read on the internet is TRUE.
That's true.
I posted a nice thing about this bike (above) and they have mailed me and said they would post me $100 in gratitude. I thought that was nice of them.Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
Boardman FS Pro0 -
Hell, this thread is getting as hot as a Fukushima reactor! :twisted:Giant XTC Pro-Carbon
Cove Hustler
Planet X Pro-Carbon0 -
wildmoustache wrote:andyrr wrote:wildmoustache wrote:Ford Cortinas are now becoming cool and in some cases appreciating in value.
Mondeo is more like it.
I LOL'd at the Cipollini frame price in C+ ... £4k+ for a frameset from an upstart manufacturer offering nothing special ... WTF? Put 105 on that, some cheap wheels etc. and you'll get to £5k
I also baulked at the price of Cipo's frame - his reason/excuse is at least that they are NOT some brand-x frame that he is sticking his own name on with some garish paint, it did very much sound as if he was involved in designing/refining the frame over a period of time and then the frames are built in small numbers. A fairly high cost invovled there. May be once they are at a stage where the frames can be churned out that production moves to a cheaper location yet the retail costs remains high but that is for the furture for that brand.
BUT, although it explains the cost, it doesn't mean it's a better bike. In fact I'd wager the Trek 6.9SSL is a far better frame than anything Mario and his mates holed up in an Umbrian villa somewhere can churn out.
To be fair, if anyone's doing the churning, it's Trek/Specialized/Giant etc"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college! " - Homer0 -
Look on ebay if you want to spend £4k - You can probably pick up last years 6 Series model for around £2.5 - £3k with better Groupset & Wheels.
Or do as everyone else is on here - buy a chinese import and build something up to your specifications, work out a lot cheaper and probably as good as a Trek.0 -
The Mad Rapper wrote:wildmoustache wrote:BUT, although it explains the cost, it doesn't mean it's a better bike. In fact I'd wager the Trek 6.9SSL is a far better frame than anything Mario and his mates holed up in an Umbrian villa somewhere can churn out.
Wow :shock:
Did he turn you down for dinner or something? You seem to have a real hard on for him. As you've ignored my previous question, I'll assume you've not ridden any of his frames; if that is the case, why slag them (and him) off? You're really not in a position to make a judgement either way are you?
No I've not ridden one. You're on "safe" ground their happilly swallowing marketing BS about the latest and greatest overpriced frame.
Why slag them off? Because on the basis of the available evidence relating to the frames and their construction the enourmous price tag is totally unjustified by the attributes of the frame.
Sure it can be better to ride them (and give a wholly objective report based on a trip to Tuscany and hospitality courtesy of Cippo as C+ did) , but in the absence of such objective analysis, it's a question of what it's reasonable to believe based on the evidence. As a new kid on the block you've got to be doing something pretty special to charge £4k.
So go on ... YOU TELL US WHAT CIPO'S FRAMES HAVE THAT OTHERS DON'T0 -
A bicycle frame is an inanimate object.
I won't even bother getting into frames being "better" than others, but comparing to cars is a bit strange. If I buy a ferrari, remove all the branding and let someone go for a drive in it, then do the same with a ford escort even a buffoon will expect to pay more for one than the other...
If I offered up a top of the line trek frame and a cheap chinese version, unbranded and with the same equipment well I don't think many here would be able to tell the difference in a blind test.0 -
58585 wrote:A bicycle frame is an inanimate object.
I won't even bother getting into frames being "better" than others, but comparing to cars is a bit strange. If I buy a ferrari, remove all the branding and let someone go for a drive in it, then do the same with a ford escort even a buffoon will expect to pay more for one than the other...
If I offered up a top of the line trek frame and a cheap chinese version, unbranded and with the same equipment well I don't think many here would be able to tell the difference in a blind test.
Yes, I agree. It is close. Not zero difference, but they're not huge either.
Re. the Cipo frames / anything else at £4k ... to me it's absurd when the same or better performance is available cheaper, especially when someone challenges that with "have you ridden one" as though it's likely to be a life-changing event after which I'll turn round and say "Why's it only£4k? I'll take two."
If's fine if you buy something like this and accept you're buying jewellery, not a performance advantage.0 -
There isn't much to be gained in life in worrying about which bike other people spend their money on...
That said it is sad to see how much angst there is about which frame shall I buy/which wheels do I need/is chorus good enough etc.
4k is small change to a lot of people who cycle and the high price is probably an attraction for the target buyers :twisted:0 -
58585 wrote:There isn't much to be gained in life in worrying about which bike other people spend their money on...
That said it is sad to see how much angst there is about which frame shall I buy/which wheels do I need/is chorus good enough etc.
4k is small change to a lot of people who cycle and the high price is probably an attraction for the target buyers :twisted:
Yeah, I agree with you on all points 585. Nothing wrong at all with purchasing exclusivity ... though strangely
the marketing BS never pushes this line ... it's always an implied performance advantage ! 0 -
58585 wrote:4k is small change to a lot of people who cycle and the high price is probably an attraction for the target buyers :twisted:
On that basis there are probably many that will spend their pennies on this model:-
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/s ... ched-29642 0 -
wildmoustache wrote:especially when someone challenges that with "have you ridden one" as though it's likely to be a life-changing event after which I'll turn round and say "Why's it only£4k? I'll take two."
No. That wasn't the basis of my challenge at all. I asked if you ridden one, because, if you had, then your views may have held some weight. As you haven't, then you've no right to slag the bike off - it just makes you look like an uninformed fool with a chip on their shoulder.
I've never ridden the bike either, so I'll keep an open mind. Try it...0 -
wildmoustache wrote:No I've not ridden one. You're on "safe" ground their happilly swallowing marketing BS about the latest and greatest overpriced frame.
Every company markets to some degree, so no surprise there then. The issue of pricing is subjective; what is obscene to one man is acceptable to another.Why slag them off? Because on the basis of the available evidence relating to the frames and their construction the enourmous price tag is totally unjustified by the attributes of the frame.
I don't accept this and have already posted why. If you have direct experience of something then by all means comment. Otherwise keep your yap shut IMHO. Do you have the same approach with cars? Would you slag Zonda off because they appear from nowhere then change over £100K for their car?Sure it can be better to ride them (and give a wholly objective report based on a trip to Tuscany and hospitality courtesy of Cippo as C+ did) , but in the absence of such objective analysis, it's a question of what it's reasonable to believe based on the evidence. As a new kid on the block you've got to be doing something pretty special to charge £4k.
You have no evidence, that's the issue. So until you do, best practise is to remain neutral surely?So go on ... YOU TELL US WHAT CIPO'S FRAMES HAVE THAT OTHERS DON'T
I don't have to defend the frames. How can I? I've never ridden one :P0 -
The Mad Rapper wrote:wildmoustache wrote:No I've not ridden one. You're on "safe" ground their happilly swallowing marketing BS about the latest and greatest overpriced frame.
Every company markets to some degree, so no surprise there then. The issue of pricing is subjective; what is obscene to one man is acceptable to another.Why slag them off? Because on the basis of the available evidence relating to the frames and their construction the enourmous price tag is totally unjustified by the attributes of the frame.
I don't accept this and have already posted why. If you have direct experience of something then by all means comment. Otherwise keep your yap shut IMHO. Do you have the same approach with cars? Would you slag Zonda off because they appear from nowhere then change over £100K for their car?Sure it can be better to ride them (and give a wholly objective report based on a trip to Tuscany and hospitality courtesy of Cippo as C+ did) , but in the absence of such objective analysis, it's a question of what it's reasonable to believe based on the evidence. As a new kid on the block you've got to be doing something pretty special to charge £4k.
You have no evidence, that's the issue. So until you do, best practise is to remain neutral surely?So go on ... YOU TELL US WHAT CIPO'S FRAMES HAVE THAT OTHERS DON'T
I don't have to defend the frames. How can I? I've never ridden one :P
The point is they have come to market asking £4k for a new frame for which there is no evidence it's actually any good, never mind better than almost everything out there. The marketing BS on the website suggests nothing new.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THESE HUGELY EXPENSIVE FRAMES DO ANYTHING BETTER THAN MUCH CHEAPER ONES IS THERE
Value for money, as commonly understood, is not wholly subjective. Parts of it are, but not all. And unless a £4k frame can show a performance benefit, then it's not unreasonable to consumers to surmise they are just buying the brand.0 -
wildmoustache wrote:The point is they have come to market asking £4k for a new frame for which there is no evidence it's actually any good, never mind better than almost everything out there.
Like any other potential purchase, it's for the consumer to carry out their own research, due diligence, if you want to use that term. Aside from the review in C+ (which I discounted as being in any way authoritative), I can't find many 'proper' reviews via Google. That's not really surprising though is it? A tiny company producing a tiny number of frames releases a new bike - it'll take time for them to get out there.The marketing BS on the website suggests nothing new.
I've looked at the web site and I see no claims being made for the frame which are out of the ordinary. If anything, the focus is more on MC than the bikes!THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THESE HUGELY EXPENSIVE FRAMES DO ANYTHING BETTER THAN MUCH CHEAPER ONES IS THERE
So is your problem with expensive MC frames, or expensive frames in general? Because it seems the latter reading that.
I think when you exceed a certain price point, it becomes very difficult to discern any 'real' differences between frames. Cycling magazines are almost wholly responsible for a lot of the 'fluff' that is now commonly used by cyclists when comparing one frame to another. I personally don't buy the way the magazines 'sell' the bikes in reviews; it doesn't power itself up a mountain, so how much of a 'willing climber' it may be is almost completely dependant upon the person riding it. After all, if you haven't got the legs, it doesn't matter which bike you are on.Value for money, as commonly understood, is not wholly subjective. Parts of it are, but not all.
We'll have to agree to disagree here. I really CBA explaining myself again.And unless a £4k frame can show a performance benefit
There may be a performance benefit, but, until you ride it and time yourself, you'll never know. As with most cycling 'improvements', it'll probably be measured in seconds rather than minutes., then it's not unreasonable to consumers to surmise they are just buying the brand.
This happens daily in just about every aspect of life - no surprise whatsoever.0 -
wildmoustache wrote:The Mad Rapper wrote:wildmoustache wrote:No I've not ridden one. You're on "safe" ground their happilly swallowing marketing BS about the latest and greatest overpriced frame.
Every company markets to some degree, so no surprise there then. The issue of pricing is subjective; what is obscene to one man is acceptable to another.Why slag them off? Because on the basis of the available evidence relating to the frames and their construction the enourmous price tag is totally unjustified by the attributes of the frame.
I don't accept this and have already posted why. If you have direct experience of something then by all means comment. Otherwise keep your yap shut IMHO. Do you have the same approach with cars? Would you slag Zonda off because they appear from nowhere then change over £100K for their car?Sure it can be better to ride them (and give a wholly objective report based on a trip to Tuscany and hospitality courtesy of Cippo as C+ did) , but in the absence of such objective analysis, it's a question of what it's reasonable to believe based on the evidence. As a new kid on the block you've got to be doing something pretty special to charge £4k.
You have no evidence, that's the issue. So until you do, best practise is to remain neutral surely?So go on ... YOU TELL US WHAT CIPO'S FRAMES HAVE THAT OTHERS DON'T
I don't have to defend the frames. How can I? I've never ridden one :P
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THESE HUGELY EXPENSIVE FRAMES DO ANYTHING BETTER THAN MUCH CHEAPER ONES IS THERE
That's not strictly true now is it. The gains may be marginal (think diminishing returns) but there are gains to be had nonetheless. Whether these can be appreciated by an average bloke is a whole different debate."That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college! " - Homer0 -
MaxwellBygraves wrote:wildmoustache wrote:The Mad Rapper wrote:wildmoustache wrote:No I've not ridden one. You're on "safe" ground their happilly swallowing marketing BS about the latest and greatest overpriced frame.
Every company markets to some degree, so no surprise there then. The issue of pricing is subjective; what is obscene to one man is acceptable to another.Why slag them off? Because on the basis of the available evidence relating to the frames and their construction the enourmous price tag is totally unjustified by the attributes of the frame.
I don't accept this and have already posted why. If you have direct experience of something then by all means comment. Otherwise keep your yap shut IMHO. Do you have the same approach with cars? Would you slag Zonda off because they appear from nowhere then change over £100K for their car?Sure it can be better to ride them (and give a wholly objective report based on a trip to Tuscany and hospitality courtesy of Cippo as C+ did) , but in the absence of such objective analysis, it's a question of what it's reasonable to believe based on the evidence. As a new kid on the block you've got to be doing something pretty special to charge £4k.
You have no evidence, that's the issue. So until you do, best practise is to remain neutral surely?So go on ... YOU TELL US WHAT CIPO'S FRAMES HAVE THAT OTHERS DON'T
I don't have to defend the frames. How can I? I've never ridden one :P
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THESE HUGELY EXPENSIVE FRAMES DO ANYTHING BETTER THAN MUCH CHEAPER ONES IS THERE
That's not strictly true now is it. The gains may be marginal (think diminishing returns) but there are gains to be had nonetheless. Whether these can be appreciated by an average bloke is a whole different debate.
Sorry, by "these" i meant the Cipo frames. No others. My fault.
To be honest they might be nice frames. But I've seen so much BS in bike retailing that I start from a more sceptical position than themadrapper given 1) the price tag 2) the apparent absence of anything to set them apart, and the features in which these frames ook to be inferior to others.
Cf. Chris Boardman's proposition.0 -
wildmoustache wrote:Sorry, by "these" i meant the Cipo frames. No others. My fault.
To be honest they might be nice frames. But I've seen so much BS in bike retailing that I start from a more sceptical position than themadrapper given 1) the price tag 2) the apparent absence of anything to set them apart, and the features in which these frames ook to be inferior to others.
Cf. Chris Boardman's proposition.
To be fair, I think where a cheaper option exists for an identical frame, then you'd be mad not to go for it. If we use the example of the Ribble Stealth versus the De Rosa, you can see straight away what is wrong with cycling journalism. De Rosa is perceived as a quality brand by a particular magazine, so the De Rosa gets a glowing review. The same magazine include the Ribble Stealth in their 'Best Bikes of the Year' test, it's presented with far higher quality components and the review is mixed. How is that possible? Bias obviously, on the part of the magazine and the writer. They don't want De Rosa upset by suggesting that they are charging £1K+ more than Ribble for a fancy paint job. De Rosa can't even argue that they are recouping R&D costs - they bought the mould as I understand it from someone else!
It's very disappointing, and indicative of the 'brand awareness' of the modern consumer.
Just remember two words which apply to the purchase of any item from any aspect of life; perception and confidence. What is my perception of the brand? Where does that brand sit relative to it's peers? Will this item do what I believe it will?
It's natural for a consumer's perception of an expensive item to be better, they've come to expect that cost = quality/capability. The difficulty is that while this may be true of cars, boats or houses, it really doesn't apply to cycling in the same way.
Confidence is a difficult concept to articulate. If you think about it, so many other things depend on it. For example, the stock market runs almost entirely on confidence. It's a concept that is very dynamic, lots of things can affect confidence in a brand; positively and negatively.0 -
Well, if some bikes were so much faster than others then races would be won by riders on the best bikes and riders would be fussy over what team they went to based on the bikes they'd have to ride surely. But it doesn't seem that way. But we can all have our opinions over how a bike feels to ride against another and how it looks aesthetically in a similar price range/quality.
As for the bike in question, well, you can always take the Shimano off it and sell it all on eBay, enough people will buy unwanted Shimano, and then you can sell the Trek frame off for a few quid. Might end up with some nice handlebars, Stem and Saddle to put on something decent
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madwrapper - i agree with you.
I'm happy to be proved wrong if the Cipo frames turn out to be superb. Based on what I can work out about them, I dont think they will, and predict they'll either be off the market or substantially cheaper vs. opponents within two years.
There is some truth in mfin's comments too. Why no difference in relative performances of people who are riding the £4k frames vs. those riding cheapo canyons etc. ?0 -
wildmoustache wrote:
There is some truth in mfin's comments too. Why no difference in relative performances of people who are riding the £4k frames vs. those riding cheapo canyons etc. ?
Well I assume by people you mean non-professional members of the public - reason is that the vast majority of people don't have the physical talent necessary to maximise the potential of their bike - if they do, they quickly rise through amateur racing ranks and start getting paid for their talent."That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college! " - Homer0 -
MaxwellBygraves wrote:wildmoustache wrote:
There is some truth in mfin's comments too. Why no difference in relative performances of people who are riding the £4k frames vs. those riding cheapo canyons etc. ?
Well I assume by people you mean non-professional members of the public - reason is that the vast majority of people don't have the physical talent necessary to maximise the potential of their bike - if they do, they quickly rise through amateur racing ranks and start getting paid for their talent.
No, I mean professionals where a significant difference would be apparent.0
