I'm seriously thinking about going back to V-brakes

Arkady001

XTR V-Brakes here still, but honestly, the disk brakes I was able to try out over ten years ago were more powerful - that's not necessarliy better though in most conditions it would be... Mud, snow - anything that gets on the rim and interferes with the contact patch between rim and brake pad will seriously degrade performance.

Factors that dissuaded me then and still are cost, weight and maintenance. With V-Brakes dialled-in they require very little maintenance apart from pad-changes - these are now £4 a pair so not exactly going to break the bank...
I'm now about 10-15Kg over my old racing weight so I need all the help I can get.

The wearing-out of rims I solved by buying ceramic coated rims - but you do have to make sure your wheels are perfectly true to get the best out of them (and to avoid annoying *shhh=shhh-shhh* noises as the brakes rub).
Not great for very rocky conditions either, as the ceramic layer can sometimes 'flake' off if big rocks are wallopped...and they aint cheap...

So far the hills round my area haven't caught me out, but they could do - the surfaces range from hardpack to loose gravelly shale fire-roads and I have to apply braking early and often, whereas I know that with good disks I could brake much later and still maintain control...

For my leisure and fitness riding they'll do, but if I were to go back to competition riding (or just trying to keep up with the local hooligans) I'd have to upgrade.
And that means a new bike and forks as mine doesn't have disk bosses.

Also I was looking at upgrading my forks - only one 'decent' XC fork in the Rock-Shox line-up has V-bosses as standard that i could find...

beelzebomb

@Arkady001

Love the portrait of the older bearded man - lighting, focus - brilliant.

Arkady001

beelzebomb wrote:

@Arkady001

Love the portrait of the older bearded man - lighting, focus - brilliant.

I'll tell my Dad (for it is he) - he'll be chuffed...lol
That was a test shoot with my newly-arrived Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D - awesome lens...

Atz

On the other hand, the avatar of a (state approved) murderer and rapist is a little less brilliant

beelzebomb

It reminds me of the portrait style of Bob Carlos Clarke. I've a limited signed print of one of his works & since his death, it has taken on a further preciousness to me.

I'm still a slide film (velvia) user - increasingly hard to find convenient outlets to continue using this medium!

Anonymous

Again, I don't buy the reduced maintenance with Vs. Discs require very little TLC.

Atz

I replace my pads when they're worn and that's about it. I'm slack on maintenance and I've still not bled the 2007 avids on my wife's bike and they're still almost as good as when I bought them.

Arkady001

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Again, I don't buy the reduced maintenance with Vs. Discs require very little TLC.

I didn't say reduced - I have no idea how much maintenance your disks require as i've never used them.

I just know that my V's require very little (i.e. none) once the inititial set-up following pad replacement is done. But you've got to be careful and get it exactly right.
I was brought up on utterly shi'ite brakes made of spaghetti and string, including Campagnolo's god-awful Delta brakes, so to my mind these are brilliant for what they cost.

Not denying there are more powerful and better-modulated options out there - but these are still a viable choice for the less hardcore user IMO...

As to poor Lavrentiy: much maligned and misunderstood - had he survived, the Soviet system would have ended much sooner. He knew that the Marxist-Leninist model was utterly flawed and the isolationist policy of the USSR was crippling them. He planned to indroduce a more open policy with the West and to end the confrontationist attitude and drastically cut defence spending.

Not surprising then that he was murdered by a Marshal of the Soviet Union: Zhukov, who made occasional remarks on the subject following Beria's failed counter-coup to reinstate Molotov - Zhukov's joke to Molotov that the carpet of Molotov's office would need cleaning suggests that Zhukov personally killed Beria

...and he was a nasty little bastard, it's true.

Anonymous

Arkady001 wrote:

Factors that dissuaded me then and still are cost, weight and maintenance. With V-Brakes dialled-in they require very little maintenance apart from pad-changes

Arkady001 wrote:

I have no idea how much maintenance your disks require as i've never used them.
I just know that my V's require very little (i.e. none) once the inititial set-up following pad replacement is done. But you've got to be careful and get it exactly right.

See, you were dissuaded in part by an illusion of more maintenance on discs. I'm TELLING you that there is virtually none. Far less tinkering than I ever had to do with Vs.
It's not "my experience", it's not "my brakes", it's just the way it is. Once the calliper is aligned, there's nothing to do.
On Vs, I had to regularly de-crapify the arms by removing copious amounts of muck, and perform slight little alignment tweaks.
It wasn't a lot of work, but it needed doing occasionally.

Northwind

Changing pads is more hassle on Vs as well. I've nothing against Vs, they have their place and I remember old cantis so I know what bad brakes really feel like, but the maintenance argument is a total myth IMO, it only has legs because bleeding brakes scares people, even though it's pretty much exactly as complicated as adjusting a cable.

Anonymous

Also, I think people tend to tinker unneccesarily with their brakes, causing all kinds of problems without realising it, or admitting it to themselves.
People did this with Vs too, but the days of the majority of riders having Vs are behind us, so people look back to some mis-remembered Halcyon days, oblivious of all the nonsense they fiddled with (again, uneccesarily).

Raymondavalon

dan shard wrote:

I saw a set of hydraulic v brakes for the first time yesterday. fluorescent yellow avid ones.

I have those fitted to my rigid hardtail and yes, they do work quite well
From experience I find my disc [Avid Code 203/185] a lot more predictable, especially in the wet/muddy conditions where the V (or in my case hyrdo rim) brakes need a little more time to bite due to the increased [rim] area that gets contaminated by mud

Another thing to take into consideration is if you ever buckle a rim on the trail. If you bang it back into shape, enabling you to get back to where you need to be, V brakes and buckled rims don't gel, whereas disc brakes wont really be affected

butcher of bakersfield

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Again, I don't buy the reduced maintenance with Vs. Discs require very little TLC.

I don't think there is any 'reduced maintenance' of Vs. And I'm not sure anyone is saying that. But when it comes down to it, the V brake mechanism could not be simpler.

The only problem I've ever had with my discs so far is that they needed bled. But had that been necessary on say, a weeks camping trip in the middle of nowhere, I'd be doing without brakes.

If you warp the disc, split a hose, or smash a lever, it's pretty much game over. Aside from cables snapping, Vs are pretty much unbreakable. And because of the simple mechanics involved, even if you did break them, nine times out of ten you could fashion some sort of fix.

It might not be massively relevant unless you're trekking across the Sahara, and it's quite rare you'd have to deal with any of these scenarios, but as I said earlier....it's personal preference. Some people still like V brakes...it's not a big deal.

Northwind

butcher of bakersfield wrote:

I don't think there is any 'reduced maintenance' of Vs. And I'm not sure anyone is saying that. But when it comes down to it, the V brake mechanism could not be simpler.

The only problem I've ever had with my discs so far is that they needed bled. But had that been necessary on say, a weeks camping trip in the middle of nowhere, I'd be doing without brakes.

If you warp the disc, split a hose, or smash a lever, it's pretty much game over. Aside from cables snapping, Vs are pretty much unbreakable. And because of the simple mechanics involved, even if you did break them, nine times out of ten you could fashion some sort of fix.

Scuse me but if you break a lever or a cable your brakes are just as broken, exactly what fix are you going to lash up? As for needing bled, if they were bled right in the first place it won't happen unless you break them (lots of people bleed brakes incompetently and leave air in the reservoir which gets in the lines, not a fault of hydros)

As for v-brakes "couldn't be simpler", you're saying that because you know how to do it but pad alignment, spring tension etc is as much a black art to most as hydro setup, IMO it's not any simpler. I'd sooner fit new hydros than Vs tbh.

cooldad

butcher of bakersfield wrote:

The only problem I've ever had with my discs so far is that they needed bled. But had that been necessary on say, a weeks camping trip in the middle of nowhere, I'd be doing without brakes.

Brakes never need bleeding suddenly. It's a gradual deterioration, and shouldn't need doing any more frequently than every few years, if that. It's a sealed self adjusting system.

Atz

Like cooldad says, you won't find your brakes need bleeding mid-ride, you'll only have a a trailside maintenance issue with disc brakes (excluding a sudden, unexplained catastrophe) if you don't keep them maintained, exactly the same as v brakes.

butcher of bakersfield

Northwind wrote:

Scuse me but if you break a lever or a cable your brakes are just as broken, exactly what fix are you going to lash up?

Screwdriver secured to what's left of the lever, with a bit of string? I don't know..it depends on the problem, and the predicament you find yourself in. Personally I'd probably ride home without one of my brakes..but that's not the point...or maybe it is.

As for needing bled, if they were bled right in the first place it won't happen unless you break them (lots of people bleed brakes incompetently and leave air in the reservoir which gets in the lines, not a fault of hydros)

I never bled them. The brakes were set-up by the shop that sold the bike to me. It happens, whether it's down to incompetence or not.

As for v-brakes "couldn't be simpler", you're saying that because you know how to do it but pad alignment, spring tension etc is as much a black art to most as hydro setup, IMO it's not any simpler. I'd sooner fit new hydros than Vs tbh.

When you're at home with your toolbox, yes. I never said they were any more difficult to set-up. But Vs can be set-up, maintained, and even built from scratch (if you're that desperate!) with a set of far more primitive tools. Tools that you'll find in most households, and the majority of hardware shops...right next to the brake cables..

I'm not saying Vs are better. They are different. Sometimes more convenient. Other times less so. Horses for courses. 90% of the time discs will serve you better.....but I've never been a fan of statistics.

Atz

Maybe you should be riding one of these instead?

supersonic

People are going to weigh up certain advantages/disadvantages in different ways, and certainly not all hydro brakes are the same - same for V brakes.

Some people do find some hydros problematic and hard to get on with, whether it is from the first fitting (cutting/adding hoses, possible bleed etc) to stuff we regurlalry get asked questions about ie sticky pistons, bent rotors, pad replacements, lever throw and bite point, squealing, contamination of pads and rotors, changing pads, fade/pump and so on.

But of course this can be applied to Vs too in many ways - some cheap ones are pretty terrible, and discs of course do not use the rim.

But use what you feel is best for YOUR own riding and budget. This is why I run different set ups on different bikes.

njee20

It was the last time I rode a frankly dangerous machine in the wet & bought a mountain bike

How did no one comment on that?! Road brakes work just fine in the wet, carbon rims make it very entertaining admittedly, but they're far from dangerous.

Inclined to agree with the 'discs are less maintenance' camp, there's more to twiddle on v's, with pad adjustment, cables etc. If I was trekking in Nepal or sommat I'd probably go v's though, screwdrivers are easier to come by than bleed kits and seals!

makkag

. if your XTR hydros or performing so badly, I think they are faulty or have contaminated pads and rotors

Short answer agree with this statement .. if i think about it it depends on your ride and what you feel comfortable with fella .. personally would never go back and i was a late convert ... give some v's a blast if you feel this way store the xtr's & make a ballanced decision, not based upon forum deliberation but how you feel .. sell what you dont like job done ... too many people follow trends and the crowd biking is about how you feel with what your in control of .. set yourself up with what works and suits your style and fluck the rest of em ...

robdaykin

I'll happily confirm that V brakes are less powerful, my XTs are setup well, modulate brilliantly, and stop far better than their predecessors, but having finally gone out on the mountain bike after riding the hybrid, I gave myself a shock when I was faced with an emergency situation where I needed to lose some but not all of my speed. I 'blipped' the brakes and stopped dead. Bit of a focusser.

The discs lock up quite easily, and I find I need to concentrate for the first few stops till I get the feel again, after riding other bikes. I find the 1 finger on the levers a bit odd, compared to the handful of lever I grab with the V brakes, and that nearly caused accidents, till I worked out they only needed 1 finger, and moved the levers so I only use 1 finger, instead of grabbing the brake lever and losing hold of the handlebars a moment later. The hybrid and road bikes will lock, but it's harder and usually only happens at speed if I pull full on.

I would consider discs on a hybrid ( in fact if the frame had mounts I would have gone disc when I upgraded to the XTs ) , but I'd think twice about a racer, because I think that discs with 23mm slicks pumped up to 120 psi would be too prone to locking or sliding and that could be dangerous in and of itself. If someone comes up with ABS for hydraulic discs then no problem, I'll have them on any bike.

The whole UCI approving disc brakes for cyclo cross is making things interesting in road world, because now racers are starting to have disc mounts. Albeit with fatter, low pressure tyres and mostly off road.

I'll also concede the wet weather thing, though I trail rim brakes before I need them, and that helps when I do need them.

I'll concede that under normal use discs are less maintenance, but then I check my rim brakes frequently and tune their performance to ensure they're as good as they can be.

However having spent an afternoon taking the rotors off with a torque wrench, applying wire wool carefully to remove rust, and refitting, there are occasions where they're not as simple. After riding in the snow, I got salt everywhere., and despite rinsing off the bike and relubing every night, I've had to replace the chain, and remove a thin layer of rust from the rotors. To be fair the rust appeared while I was off the bike following knee surgery after the snow cleared, but I'm blaming the gritters...

I'm also not looking forward to changing the pads on the discs or bleeding the brakes. I'm not mechanically gifted shall we say, and I'll cross that bridge when I have to.

As for carbon wheels I turned down a set because of the special brake pads and reduced braking effect. Since then they've started putting aluminium surfaces on carbon wheels.

Rob
Avid Elixir Rs
Shimano XT (the ones with the parallogram action and cartridge pads), alligator cables
Shimano Ultegra 6700 with Swiss Stop pads and gore cables
Tektro calipers (will be replaced sometime) with Shimano Ultegra pads, powercordz cables

(I've got some1980s vintage Weinmann side pulls too, but they're not fitted to anything at present. :-) )

Anonymous

I wouldn;t bother removing rust from the disc. Just using the brakes will get rid of it.
Look at the rear discs (in particular) of any road car, and most of them are really surty, because they don't get used.
Now the front discs on the same cars are pristine, because they're always getting used. However, leave a car sitting still for a day or two, and the front discs will rust too.
It's all gone after a drive though.

robdaykin

I'd read that, and having replaced the chain, did ride with the rusty discs, but they didn't seem to clean up well, and I was worried that they'd be damaged long term if left. Besides they squeaked, and I hate that.

pastey_boy

dan shard wrote:

I saw a set of hydraulic v brakes for the first time yesterday. fluorescent yellow avid ones.

i actually have a set of hydraulic v brakes, they were made sometime near 2000 by a firm called starbike. still brand spanking and waiting for a home. they have a piston between the arms and also use magura pads. nice and light too, i will have to get around to fitting them to a bike to see how they perform. heres a pic of them
http://www.schlickjumper.de/parts/forum1_832.htm

Anonymous

^^Wow, I have never seen anything like that before!

Arkady001

yeehaamcgee wrote:

On Vs, I had to regularly de-crapify the arms by removing copious amounts of muck, and perform slight little alignment tweaks.
It wasn't a lot of work, but it needed doing occasionally.

What you call 'maintenance, I call 'cleaning'...that happens after every ride regardless...lol

'Back then' disks were a novelty and commanded 'novelty' prices - I accept they're a lot cheaper, better and more refined now, but I'd still have to buy a new frame and forks to fit them and that makes the proposition untenable for me at present: it's not a £300 upgrade, it's a £3,000 upgrade.

joshtp

Last time I ran v's I very quickly became fed up with fiddling with them to get them to work well every 5 mins, and spending £6 on pads every other wet ride is frankly annoying. And in the wet, on big hills, they are just not powerful enough.


Disks every time for me.


mine have always been pretty much fit and forget too. And Sintered pads last AGES.

NatoED wrote:

onza frames have hs33 mounts as standard as do diamond back trials frames, so did the pace 250(?) , and pashly 26mhz . the t-bird is the most common trials frame out there which comes with hs33 as standard kit on a built up factory bike

about 5 years out of date there mate...


The t-bird isnt even made any more, and is definitely not the most common... and I would say at least 70% of Mod frames and 60% of Stock frames come with Maggy mounts as standard... more and more have disk tabs now too, but the majority of Trials riders run Magura rim brakes on the back at least. Some do also have v mounts.

Northwind

butcher of bakersfield wrote:

Screwdriver secured to what's left of the lever, with a bit of string?

Good luck with that.

Chinley Churner

Does this really merit discussion???

Mountain biking in the UK tends to be gloopy.... do you want your braking surface near the gloop and covered in the gloop or away from the gloop? I reckon it's a no brainer.

Do you want your ride scuppered by the slightest buckle in your wheel?

Do you want to be wearing your rim away every time you touch your brakes?

and so on and so on....

I accept that a lot of innovations and improvements are just fashion but to suggest this about disc brakes is just lunacy.