4th to 3rd Cat Confusion...?

will040991

Hey... just asking on behalf of a friend who is a 4th cat, but had nine points last season and got 2nd today so thats an additional 8 points. According to British Cycling rules you just need 10 points to move up to 3rd cat and this has to be done on a 4th cat licence - it doesnt specify it has to be done in one season. This is opposed to going from 3rd to 2nd which I know has to be achived in one season. So, does this mean he will now be a 3rd cat, or does he have to achieve all the points in one season, which, I have heard rumours of despite what the rules state?

According to the official British Cycling rulebook:

3rd Category: Any junior or senior licence holder who has gained at least 10 but less than 40 points whilst holding a 4th category licence. Note: Riders are never downgraded to 4th category once a 3rd category licence has been achieved.



Which implies the points dont have to be earned in one season, as opposed to:

2nd Category: Any junior or senior licence holder who has gained 40 points during any one season whilst holding a 3rd category licence. To retain a 2nd category licence for the following season, a rider must obtain at least 25 points in events open to that category of rider.

Chip \'oyler

I'm 99% sure that you have to gain the points to move up within a season

joeyhalloran

Yeah, I was under this impression too.

Anonymous

Needs to be in the same season.

Pross

Pretty sure 4th to 3rd points carry on across several seasons until you get to 3rd. Once you reach third you never go back. That's why the description is gained 10 points whilst holding a 4th cat licence rather than gaining 10 points in any one season as all other categories are. I think it's a deliberate tactic by BC to stop people stopping short of getting 10 points to stay a 4th cat as some sad people would!

robrauy

Has to be 10 points in one season. 4th cat points are not carried over.

Bronzie

4.5.4 Each rider will start with zero points at the beginning of
each year (i.e. no points will be carried forward from
the previous year).

Lion-O

contact british cycling direct to get a definitve answer. after all its up to them.

Bronzie

The definitive answer is presumably the one in their rulebook (which I posted above).

mamba80

I had 9pts from 2 races last season and asked the same question to BC BUT it is as above.... you zero back at beginning of season, its just that on their website it doesn t say what is in the rule book

PaulThomo

When 4th cats were first introduced, it was stated by BC that it didn't matter how many years it took to get those 10 points required for upgrading, but once you go them then you stayed up forever.
This is the basis for why they have written the reg describing how to upgrade from 4th to 3rd.
However they seemed to have imposed this reg about zeroing the points at the start of each year for all cats including 4ths... Which is confusing as all other category descriptions already said that the points need to be gained during one season, but the 4th to 3rd reg does not, thus causing the confusion.

reg 4.5.4 needs to be removed as it's unnecessary, and you should add a bit into the 3rd cat reg.

Paul

milese

As a 4th cat I got a 5th place, worth 5 points a few weeks ago.

I won on Sat so got 10 points, moving me to third cat with a total of 15 points.

Do I now have 5 points towards second cat, or am I reset to 0 once I got to third?

JackPozzi

You'll have 5 points

Pokerface

I had zero points last year as a 4th Cat. Do those zero points carry over to this year?

ozzzyosborn206

Pokerface wrote:

I had zero points last year as a 4th Cat. Do those zero points carry over to this year?

afraid not, they will have given you a new 0

Pokerface

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

I had zero points last year as a 4th Cat. Do those zero points carry over to this year?

afraid not, they will have given you a new 0

My ex wife already tore me a new 0.

Herbsman

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

I had zero points last year as a 4th Cat. Do those zero points carry over to this year?

afraid not, they will have given you a new 0

emx

JackPozzi wrote:

You'll have 5 points

my understanding is that you have to have a 3rd cat licence in order to register points on it. Not sure the 'excess' points scored as a 4th will carry over into 3rd and effectively count towards a 2nc cat licence....

Bronzie

PaulThomo wrote:

When 4th cats were first introduced, it was stated by BC that it didn't matter how many years it took to get those 10 points required for upgrading, but once you go them then you stayed up forever.

My take on this is that if you're not strong enough / good enough to gain 10+ points in one season, then it's fair that you stay 4th cat.

What advantage is there in becoming a 3rd cat (other than a bit of prestige) ........... probably that you can race with better riders at National B level, but let's face it, you're not likely to be able to finish a race at that level if it's taken you a few years to gain your 10 points.

morstar

Am I missing something with this here malarkey?

I read on the Salt Ayre web-site that you get a point for just entering a race. Are these different points i.e. just for the league, or could I get to 3rd cat just by taking part in 10 races regardless of how badly I do.

I am hoping to start racing this year and would love to become a 3rd cat based on ability and success but, conversely, I would hate to find myself as a 3rd cat if I couldn't even hack the pace as a 4th cat.

milese

morstar wrote:

Am I missing something with this here malarkey?

I read on the Salt Ayre web-site that you get a point for just entering a race. Are these different points i.e. just for the league, or could I get to 3rd cat just by taking part in 10 races regardless of how badly I do.

I am hoping to start racing this year and would love to become a 3rd cat based on ability and success but, conversely, I would hate to find myself as a 3rd cat if I couldn't even hack the pace as a 4th cat.

Your missing something.

If you get a point for entrying I'd imagine that is a point towards a local league, not a BC point.

Pokerface

Let's be honest - there's not really a whole lot of difference between 4th Cat and 3rd Cat racing.

The only difference is that there are some 4th only races (but not many). Normally it's 2-3-4 or 3-4.

So if you get bumped to 3rd, it's probably not going to change your race options much.



(And no - you don't get points just for showing up. Unless there are only 10 people in the race!)

JackPozzi

emx wrote:

JackPozzi wrote:

You'll have 5 points

my understanding is that you have to have a 3rd cat licence in order to register points on it. Not sure the 'excess' points scored as a 4th will carry over into 3rd and effectively count towards a 2nc cat licence....

I have no idea how it's supposed to work, but this year I started from zero, got 2 second places worth 8 pts each and after being upgraded to 3rd cat I've now got 6 points...

simonsays

sounds like as someone said earlier points achieved over 10 in 4th cat carry over to 3rd cat 8+8=16-10 is 6 3rd cat points

CakeLovinBeast

Holy-year-old-thread-resurrection Batman!

Johnpsanderson

morstar wrote:

Am I missing something with this here malarkey?

I read on the Salt Ayre web-site that you get a point for just entering a race. Are these different points i.e. just for the league, or could I get to 3rd cat just by taking part in 10 races regardless of how badly I do.

BC Licence points are only ever for finishing positions - you won't get points towards moving up a category just for turning up.

If riders have a break from competition they can find themselves back at 4th cat - even if they were 3rd, 2nd, etc, etc before their break. Perhaps this shouldn't happen - but it definitely does...

So if you get bumped to 3rd, it's probably not going to change your race options much.

Depends on local provision - where I am two of the local series are Go-Race, albeit with riders of a good standard, if I moved up to 3rd cat i'd be lumped in with E1234 fields or have to ride 34 or 234 road races which are much further afield. Although it undermines the point of Go-Race if I do get good enough to make 3rd cat it'd probably lead to me packing up mass start racing...

xixang

Johnpsanderson wrote:

If riders have a break from competition they can find themselves back at 4th cat - even if they were 3rd, 2nd, etc, etc before their break. Perhaps this shouldn't happen - but it definitely does...

it doesn't happen. I've not held a race licence since an accident in 2007 ended my racing when I fractured my back. Just decided to renew yesterday and try again. Was 4th on provisional licence but they've reinstated my 3rd cat even though I've not raced or even ridden that regularly in 5 years

Johnpsanderson

xixang wrote:

Johnpsanderson wrote:

If riders have a break from competition they can find themselves back at 4th cat - even if they were 3rd, 2nd, etc, etc before their break. Perhaps this shouldn't happen - but it definitely does...

it doesn't happen. I've not held a race licence since an accident in 2007 ended my racing when I fractured my back. Just decided to renew yesterday and try again. Was 4th on provisional licence but they've reinstated my 3rd cat even though I've not raced or even ridden that regularly in 5 years

It does happen - i know riders who currently hold 4th cat licences, despite having previously held 2nd or 3rd cat licences...

CakeLovinBeast

Well it shouldn't. You can be relegated from 2nd or higher categories for not fulfilling your points requirement in a given series. However, once you hit 3rd, you shouldn't ever go back, so I'd tell those people to contact BC, as their own website states:

3rd Category: Any junior or senior licence holder who has gained 10 points during any one season whilst holding a 4th category licence. Note: Riders are never downgraded to 4th category once a 3rd category licence has been achieved.

Depends on local provision - where I am two of the local series are Go-Race, albeit with riders of a good standard, if I moved up to 3rd cat i'd be lumped in with E1234 fields or have to ride 34 or 234 road races which are much further afield. Although it undermines the point of Go-Race if I do get good enough to make 3rd cat it'd probably lead to me packing up mass start racing...

Go-Race events don't award points. From the BC website:

Regional C and Go Race events do not qualify for licence points

Johnpsanderson

CakeLovinBeast wrote:

Go-Race events don't award points. From the BC website:

Regional C and Go Race events do not qualify for licence points

I meant - if i were to score points in a 4th cat only race, as opposed to a Go-Race event, it would then restrict my local riding opportunities - so the move up from 4th to 3rd might make a big difference to a rider depending on their local provision...

Pross

I've got a 4th cat licence on returning to the sport having previously been a 3rd cat. However, I previously rode in the pre-4th cat era and hadn't picked up any points (it also pre-dates the BC computerised system) so maybe this explains why there are some 4th cats who used to be 2nd or 3rd?