Burst my bubble
lfcquin
Posts: 470
Robert Millar just burst my bubble. I was reading last weeks Cycling Weekly (can I say that on here?) and in it is an article about a chap who is getting some training advice from Millar.
He asked the great man, why on a long 6 or 7 degree climb he got dropped by his training partners, yet on a 20 degree climb he didn't get dropped. Millar told him that power to weight ratio goes out of the window on steeper climbs because everyone is out of the saddle and it becomes more about strength, so he should focus more on intervals to build power because he clearly has enough strength.
Now, I am 6ft 3in and I weight approx 84kg, which comes down a couple of kilo's during racing season. I always put my lack of climbing ability down to power/weight and figured being a big chap I would never get to the point where I could climb well. The problem is that I get dropped on the steeper climbs and can hang in, often out performing smaller riders on long draggy climbs.
So, it seems my problem is not enough strength and not power to weight. Time for a change in my training methods maybe? :oops:
He asked the great man, why on a long 6 or 7 degree climb he got dropped by his training partners, yet on a 20 degree climb he didn't get dropped. Millar told him that power to weight ratio goes out of the window on steeper climbs because everyone is out of the saddle and it becomes more about strength, so he should focus more on intervals to build power because he clearly has enough strength.
Now, I am 6ft 3in and I weight approx 84kg, which comes down a couple of kilo's during racing season. I always put my lack of climbing ability down to power/weight and figured being a big chap I would never get to the point where I could climb well. The problem is that I get dropped on the steeper climbs and can hang in, often out performing smaller riders on long draggy climbs.
So, it seems my problem is not enough strength and not power to weight. Time for a change in my training methods maybe? :oops:
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So you're going to ignore the science that is as far as I can see divided on the issue of strength training and go with the word of one man?
Have you considered that your problem might be that your power/weight ratio for longer durations is good, but for shorter durations its less good? A good power/weight ratio over 20 minutes say doesn't necessarily mean you'll have a competitive power/weight ratio over a couple of minutes.More problems but still living....0 -
amaferanga wrote:A good power/weight ratio over 20 minutes say doesn't necessarily mean you'll have a competitive power/weight ratio over a couple of minutes.
This ^^0 -
amaferanga wrote:So you're going to ignore the science that is as far as I can see divided on the issue of strength training and go with the word of one man?
Well, I guess if I was going to go with the word of one man, then he would be up there with those I might listen to, but I reckon posting it on here suggests a willingness to listen to other opinions. Either way my bubble has been well and truly burst.
My training has always been fairly basic, involving 60/70 mile hard weekend rides, chaingangs and short pyramid interval work on the turbo, in the time I have available I reckon the training is reasonably effective in that it allows me to be competitive and pull out results in TLI's and 3rd/4th cat events. I do steer clear of hilly circuits though, because those high intensity digs up short steep climbs finds me wanting. Clearly I need to address that, so what might be the best way of going about resolving that problem if it isn't strength training?
Cheers.0 -
What's your body fat percentage. This affects performance more than weight. Riders like Cancellara (84kg) Indurain (80kg) went up most hills well with the exception of the big Alps where climbs are an hour or so. Lower gradients (say 6 %) suit testers if they are a few minutes long (say less than 10) the steeper gradients suit the scrawny climbers as they have less to service with every beat of their heart.Racing is life - everything else is just waiting0
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Down the Road wrote:What's your body fat percentage
I don't know. I might get the missus to measure me up later, Im pretty skinny for my height, but I am guessing that might be misleading. I hear what you say about the smaller riders, and that was where my head was at with it all. I think I had written off ever being able to compete on hills, but I'm now coming around and thinking I can do more to improve that area. Question is how?0 -
Your BMI is over 23. Unless you are ALL muscle there is work to do. Myself I am almost 6'2" but race at 70 kgs this is about 8.5% body fat which is low but not super low. Pro riders are about 4- 6% for key races and most are contracted to be below 7.5% all year round.Racing is life - everything else is just waiting0
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lfcquin wrote:He asked the great man, why on a long 6 or 7 degree climb he got dropped by his training partners, yet on a 20 degree climb he didn't get dropped. Millar told him that power to weight ratio goes out of the window on steeper climbs because everyone is out of the saddle and it becomes more about strength, so he should focus more on intervals to build power because he clearly has enough strength.
Surely the opposite should be true? The steeper the climb, then more impact power/weight has...0 -
Garry H wrote:lfcquin wrote:He asked the great man, why on a long 6 or 7 degree climb he got dropped by his training partners, yet on a 20 degree climb he didn't get dropped. Millar told him that power to weight ratio goes out of the window on steeper climbs because everyone is out of the saddle and it becomes more about strength, so he should focus more on intervals to build power because he clearly has enough strength.
Surely the opposite should be true? The steeper the climb, then more impact power/weight has...
Let me explain .................to get up a short steep hill of say 15-20% the amount of power you can generate for up to two minutes is the key factor , as long as you are not overweight of course . As most pro/elite riders aren't carrying excess weight then it is going to be their power output over that short time which is going to decide if they can blast up the hill or not . Look at the Belgian classics for example , something like Tour of Flanders , it's the powerful riders who are competitive because they can produce the power to get over the steep hills with an effort similar to what they produce in a long sprint . The scrawny climbers aren't any use on these short steep hills because they can't generate those numbers , if the climb was 5km long then sure a climber would be in front but over 800m they dont produce the power to blast up that kind of climb . Maybe describing the ability to climb a short steep hill as needing strength was not accurate enough for the pedantic but basically that best describes the type of effort you'll need to be competitive on that terrain .
If you need an up to date example of rider types take Gesink versus Gilbert ,on equal form Gesink (the scrawny climber) isn't going worry Gilbert on any steep climb at Liege Bastogne or Amstel Gold Race because Gilbert has more explosive power/ strength . The power to weight ratios , 5, 6 or 7 watts per kilo , you are obssesing over are for power at threshold , what you can maintain for a long climb or roughly an hour but they aren't relative in a short explosive effort . If I make up some numbers for the Gilbert type rider and the Gesink climber it might be clearer.
Say Gilbert produces 750 watts for a 90 second effort and Gesinky can produce 450watts for the same time , the difference in short term power is more than enough to compensate for the difference in body weight . Gilbert blasts up the short hill and Gesink ends up in the chasing group at twenty seconds .
How you go about improving the steep hill ability isn't as simple as just losing weight or being skinny .0 -
Short climb: high W/kg over short interval
Long climb: high W/kg over longer period (e.g. FTP)
Power/weight ratio is still relevant, only its power/weight over a different time period.More problems but still living....0 -
amaferanga wrote:Short climb: high W/kg over short interval
Long climb: high W/kg over longer period (e.g. FTP)
Power/weight ratio is still relevant, only its power/weight over a different time period.
Power to weight is always relevant if you look at cycling like that , it just depends on how much power you've got to play with at that very moment and how much weight it has to push against gravity .
If you need to be really specific then yes the short steep climb requires a high watts per kg over a short time but to be more exact the longer climb requires a watts per kg that is considerably inferior and though most climbers can produce the lower watts per kg that an Alpine pass requires they aren't going to be sprinting up the Cauberg with Philippe Gilbert .0 -
lfcquin wrote:Robert Millar just burst my bubble. I was reading last weeks Cycling Weekly (can I say that on here?) and in it is an article about a chap who is getting some training advice from Millar.
I hope you feel that your bubble has been re-inflated again seeing as the great man himself has personally answered your question.
Good to see you are keeping an eye on us Robert and keeping us in check.
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Oh I do hope you don't feel admonished :oops:
Just carry on as if nothing happened
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gotheteeshirt2 wrote:Oh I do hope you don't feel admonished :oops:
Just carry on as if nothing happened
I am sure nobody feels admonished, as we all know you have been there, done that and erm...........got the tee shirt (pardon the pun) so it's good to see you on here posting great feedback and sharing your wealth of experience.
If I were the original poster I would be over the moon that you had replied as I am sure he was not expecting it.0
