petrol price and more cycling ?

snailracer

The real price of petrol, as well as all other motoring costs, has fallen in the last 10-15 years. Inflation is only half the equation, the other half is that incomes have risen faster than inflation.

In real terms, even commuting by train has got cheaper over the last 10-15 years - ticket prices rose faster than inflation, but incomes rose even faster than ticket prices.

rick_chasey

simonaspinall wrote:

Good point - But is it the case that petrol is actually priced correctly in proportional level compared to at any point in the past 10-15 years?

No idea.

I do believe that just because people are used to cheap fuel prices doesn't mean they necessarily have a right to cheap fuel.

Demand's increasing, prices will go up. More of the world wants the stuff. It'd do the world a bit of good if it became economically viable to put efforts into alternative fuels.

rick_chasey

snailracer wrote:

In real terms, even commuting by train has got cheaper over the last 10-15 years - ticket prices rose faster than inflation, but incomes rose even faster than ticket prices.

It hasn't over the last 5 years.

daviesee

Rick Chasey wrote:

simonaspinall wrote:

Good point - But is it the case that petrol is actually priced correctly in proportional level compared to at any point in the past 10-15 years?

No idea.

I do believe that just because people are used to cheap fuel prices doesn't mean they necessarily have a right to cheap fuel.

Demand's increasing, prices will go up. More of the world wants the stuff. It'd do the world a bit of good if it became economically viable to put efforts into alternative fuels.

Fair points.

Here is another angle though. All the oil that is easy to get has mostly been got. Future oil will be harder to get. Harder means more expensive. Those boffins better get their fingers out.

SickAsAParrot

simonaspinall wrote:

Good point - But is it the case that petrol is actually priced correctly in proportional level compared to at any point in the past 10-15 years?

I've always suspected this, when my dad used to put '£10 worth' in his tank 30-odd years ago, I think it was about the same proportion of his weekly wage that filling mine up is now. And his car was probably a lot less efficient.

I cycle because I hate driving, not because of the cost.

snailracer

Rick Chasey wrote:

snailracer wrote:

In real terms, even commuting by train has got cheaper over the last 10-15 years - ticket prices rose faster than inflation, but incomes rose even faster than ticket prices.

It hasn't over the last 5 years.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/da ... n2ptbm.pdf

Page 35 & 36.

rick_chasey

snailracer wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

snailracer wrote:

In real terms, even commuting by train has got cheaper over the last 10-15 years - ticket prices rose faster than inflation, but incomes rose even faster than ticket prices.

It hasn't over the last 5 years.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/da ... n2ptbm.pdf

Page 35 & 36.

Won't open on my computer - something to do with a damanged file - what are the headline fugures that prove me wrong?

I'm just going by what I know - commutes to London from Cambridge have steadily risen above inflation the past 5 years - and income generally has fallen.

simonaspinall

SickAsAParrot wrote:

simonaspinall wrote:

Good point - But is it the case that petrol is actually priced correctly in proportional level compared to at any point in the past 10-15 years?

I've always suspected this, when my dad used to put '£10 worth' in his tank 30-odd years ago, I think it was about the same proportion of his weekly wage that filling mine up is now. And his car was probably a lot less efficient.

I cycle because I hate driving, not because of the cost.

I salute you! Same here - I scrapped my old car as it was a)old and b)I hate driving.

I am in the rather fortunate position in life to only have to worry about my own transport methods so I can cycle. I think the transition of people's attitudes form demanding the 'right' to cheap fuel for hypermobility to accepting that maybe that was unsustainable is happening.

The sad bit is that government policy has not done anything to really help the positive move towards buses/trains/bikes, just penalised motorists. As much as I have a bit of schadenfreude when I saw petrol at about £1.31 per litre on my way to work, I do appreciate that some people do genuinely need cars, particularly if they have dependants and running their own business and do feel for them. Commuter car potatoes however...

snailracer

Rick Chasey wrote:

snailracer wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

snailracer wrote:

In real terms, even commuting by train has got cheaper over the last 10-15 years - ticket prices rose faster than inflation, but incomes rose even faster than ticket prices.

It hasn't over the last 5 years.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/da ... n2ptbm.pdf

Page 35 & 36.

Won't open on my computer - something to do with a damanged file - what are the headline fugures that prove me wrong?

I'm just going by what I know - commutes to London from Cambridge have steadily risen above inflation the past 5 years - and income generally has fallen.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but the trend over any longer period is very clear. Even if train tickets have risen faster than incomes over the last 5 years (no data to support that from my source, btw) then over a 10-year period incomes have risen so massively, any relative drop in the last 5 years still leaves ticket prices relatively cheaper.

rick_chasey

snailracer wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

snailracer wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

snailracer wrote:

In real terms, even commuting by train has got cheaper over the last 10-15 years - ticket prices rose faster than inflation, but incomes rose even faster than ticket prices.

It hasn't over the last 5 years.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/da ... n2ptbm.pdf

Page 35 & 36.

Won't open on my computer - something to do with a damanged file - what are the headline fugures that prove me wrong?

I'm just going by what I know - commutes to London from Cambridge have steadily risen above inflation the past 5 years - and income generally has fallen.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but the trend over any longer period is very clear. Even if train tickets have risen faster than incomes over the last 5 years (no data to support that from my source, btw) then over a 10-year period incomes have risen so massively, any relative drop in the last 5 years still leaves ticket prices relatively cheaper.

You're probably right. What that particlar line doesn't include is where the income has risen, and as such weather the increase in train fares hurts the majority, who, perhaps, haven't seen a vast increase in income.

snailracer

SickAsAParrot wrote:

simonaspinall wrote:

Good point - But is it the case that petrol is actually priced correctly in proportional level compared to at any point in the past 10-15 years?

I've always suspected this, when my dad used to put '£10 worth' in his tank 30-odd years ago, I think it was about the same proportion of his weekly wage that filling mine up is now. And his car was probably a lot less efficient.

I cycle because I hate driving, not because of the cost.

Since 1980, in real terms, petrol has become 1.6 times cheaper.
Since 1980, total motoring costs, in real terms, have become 2.6 times cheaper.

SickAsAParrot

simonaspinall wrote:

I am in the rather fortunate position in life to only have to worry about my own transport methods so I can cycle. I think the transition of people's attitudes form demanding the 'right' to cheap fuel for hypermobility to accepting that maybe that was unsustainable is happening.

I'm not in that position unfortunately, my wife is disabled and needs a car, but we can get away with only having one and it only needs filling once a month. As it's taxed as a disabled car I'm technically not allowed to drive it anyway, even though it's my car!

My sisters partner is commuting from Leeds to Newcastle every day and its costing him £500 per month, jeeezz...

I'm not sure people will change attitudes that easily, there are too many people who believe they have such a god-given right to drive they don't bother with tax and insurance, and these will increasingly resort to stealing petrol in order to stay on the road and that's worrying.

simonaspinall

Also, has the requirement for the volume of petrol per driver increased? Has the mpg increased through car type, driving style and the geographical area (ie more congested towns and cities)

Hence the need to legislate for a minimum mpg for categories of car, the use of more intelligent driver behaviour monitoring - whether that be average speed cameras, video analytics in town, onboad car driver system measuring the level of driver tw*tishness and congestion charging.

The revenue generated by increased taxation and fines should exclusively be used to increase the quality and quantity of public transport.

I don't agree with segregation of bike lanes - But definitely the assumed liability laws.

Also include future town planning and transport infrastructure planning.

Following these types of intiatives, petrol prices would become less contentious.

simonaspinall

SickAsAParrot wrote:

simonaspinall wrote:

I am in the rather fortunate position in life to only have to worry about my own transport methods so I can cycle. I think the transition of people's attitudes form demanding the 'right' to cheap fuel for hypermobility to accepting that maybe that was unsustainable is happening.

I'm not in that position unfortunately, my wife is disabled and needs a car, but we can get away with only having one and it only needs filling once a month. As it's taxed as a disabled car I'm technically not allowed to drive it anyway, even though it's my car!

My sisters partner is commuting from Leeds to Newcastle every day and its costing him £500 per month, jeeezz...

I'm not sure people will change attitudes that easily, there are too many people who believe they have such a god-given right to drive they don't bother with tax and insurance, and these will increasingly resort to stealing petrol in order to stay on the road and that's worrying.

Sorry to hear that Mr Parrot. Although commuting from Leeds to Newcastle....if that isn't hypermobility I don't know what is?! It's difficult as people get made redundant and cannot keep moving house according to where their job is but extensive commutes between cities have more often than not been brought about by reliance on a car to give them convenience and it's that facilitation that is being erroded slowly.

bompington

The thing about long commutes brings up a big issue: if car use is going to have to decline, then one inevitable consequence is urbanisation - people are going to have to live close to where they work.
This may be a necessary evil but I personally would say that it is an evil: places like the Highlands (never mind the islands) are depopulating badly enough as it is. A lot of the economy relies on tourism, i.e. people driving in from the big cities: take this away and never mind ghost towns, you'll get ghost regions.

FWIW I live 18 miles from where I work, if I ride it's a hilly 19 as I don't fancy the (dual) A90: I personally am physically capable of doing that in more or less all weathers, but how many are? And with a busy life, especially a family that is my first commitment, time becomes an issue too: if I'm fit and the weather's good, I can ride that faster than the bus, but when you factor in getting ready & changing afterwards, it's over 1 1/2 hours, compared to 25 minutes in the car.
At the moment (1yo baby & Mrs Bomp just going back to work) that means that commuting by bike is an indulgence I don't have time for.

Balanced against rising fuel costs? I don't know, is the short answer.

daviesee

simonaspinall wrote:

Also, has the requirement for the volume of petrol per driver increased? Has the mpg increased through car type, driving style and the geographical area (ie more congested towns and cities)

Hence the need to legislate for a minimum mpg for categories of car, the use of more intelligent driver behaviour monitoring - whether that be average speed cameras, video analytics in town, onboad car driver system measuring the level of driver tw*tishness and congestion charging.

The revenue generated by increased taxation and fines should exclusively be used to increase the quality and quantity of public transport.
I don't agree with segregation of bike lanes - But definitely the assumed liability laws.

Also include future town planning and transport infrastructure planning.

Following these types of intiatives, petrol prices would become less contentious.

I believe that the Government (whoever is in charge at the time) have been making these promises for years. I am still waiting................ :evil: