Turn away

DaveyL

This is not a decision I've come to in the last day or two, but I have noted a couple of posts suggesting the same thing so I thought I would write this up.

Even those at the top of the anti-doping tree, like Michael Ashenden, acknowledge that anti-doping science will not stop doping. The real power lies in the hands of the fans - when they turn their backs on the sport, the sponsors start to lose out. And only when the sponsors start to lose out, will we see enforced change.

This is what I intend to do this season. I've had enough of watching races and wondering if what I see is genuine, of wondering if the winner will still be the winner in a month's time. Of seeing the sport's governing body unable to organise a drinking session in a brewery, and indeed seeming to go out of their way to apply the rules unevenly and generally be as inconsistent, corrupt and self-interested as possible. That's before the blatant self-interest of some of the national federations even comes into it.

I haven't watched any races this year and I am not going to. I'll be spending the time much more productively (training on my bike) and I urge others who feel strongly about this to do the same.

mattsy666

I think rather than not watching the sport, if a few of you took time away from the forum and found another way of 'venting' whatever it is that drives some of the utter mince i read on here then that would be more productive ... To some this forum is their 'preparation' ...

Tranqillo indeed ...

No_Ta_Doctor

I watched religiously from my youth, when TdF first appeared on Channel 4 and stopped in '98 due to Festina. Between then and last year I didn't watch more than about 5 minutes of racing, in total. I finally came back to the sport, emboldened with tales of biological passports and progress being made. After all those years I was finally able to share it with my kids.

I don't think I'll be watching any this year, definitely not if Contador rides in the Giro or TdF.

rick_chasey

You'd find it difficult to keep me away from watching bike races.

mattsy666

No tA Doctor wrote:

I watched religiously from my youth, when TdF first appeared on Channel 4 and stopped in '98 due to Festina. Between then and last year I didn't watch more than about 5 minutes of racing, in total. I finally came back to the sport, emboldened with tales of biological passports and progress being made. After all those years I was finally able to share it with my kids.

I don't think I'll be watching any this year, definitely not if Contador rides in the Giro or TdF.

Or to save some words ... 'too tight to pay for Eurosport' ...

iainf72

Whoa, you mean I need to take up cycling?

Sorry, that sounds like it would require some kind of effort.

Pokerface

And how would the sponsors have any more luck enforcing the rules than the current setup exactly?

I'd watch these guys race whether they are paid to do it or not. Talent is talent.


And waiting to see which ones test positive is almost as much fun as seeing who wins the races.

Murr X

DaveyL wrote:

This is not a decision I've come to in the last day or two, but I have noted a couple of posts suggesting the same thing so I thought I would write this up.

Even those at the top of the anti-doping tree, like Michael Ashenden, acknowledge that anti-doping science will not stop doping. The real power lies in the hands of the fans - when they turn their backs on the sport, the sponsors start to lose out. And only when the sponsors start to lose out, will we see enforced change.

This is what I intend to do this season. I've had enough of watching races and wondering if what I see is genuine, of wondering if the winner will still be the winner in a month's time. Of seeing the sport's governing body unable to organise a drinking session in a brewery, and indeed seeming to go out of their way to apply the rules unevenly and generally be as inconsistent, corrupt and self-interested as possible. That's before the blatant self-interest of some of the national federations even comes into it.

I haven't watched any races this year and I am not going to. I'll be spending the time much more productively (training on my bike) and I urge others who feel strongly about this to do the same.

What would happen if fans turned their backs on the sport is that many good people in the sport would lose jobs even bike shops may have to end up "scaling down" or even closing altogether, young aspiring riders would have no future and would not consider the sport as a viable option for themselves, etc etc... It may just die out and would have a seriously tough time recovering. I would be very upset to see our sport watered down and lose the super high level of competition and super tough athletes that it is famous for.

Of course doping would still be rife as doping tends to finds its way whether systematic or self managed. With gene doping just around the corner (I sure don't want to see it) we should be very happy with how things are at the present time. As fans it is easy to forget that the riders have a great deal of respect for each other and know that there is very real and serious competition going on - this is really all that matters.

Not a rant just my $0.02, I think that it is potentially very damaging to the long term interests of the sport to turn our backs.


Murr X

andrewjoseph

I think DaveyL's stance is to be applauded. We know one person not watching cycling will not make a dent, but sticking to your principles deserves respect.

I don't necessarily agree with you Davey, but well done for voicing your views in this manner.

bigmat

I'm just going to pretend certain riders don't exist. One in particular.

ridgerider

For the record...

I don't watch football since they all started diving
I don't believe tennis players can play for weeks on end without something
Snooker...wanna bet?
Rugby...
Athletics...

There aren't too many 'honest' specticles left...I just watch cycling for what it is, and try not to get too lost by it's politics.

LangerDan

I can understand why people would feel frustrated with the sport but the reactions of some seem to imply that there was some sort of pure, "golden way" from which the sport has strayed over the past few years.

Professional cycling has been rife with cheating since its very inception. The only two changes that I can see in the past couple of decades are a) the "weapons" of deception have become considerably more sophisticated and b) t'internetz hass allowed a far greater number of people to become aware of the problem. Beneath that, I don't the sport is any more or less moral than it has been for a century. There have been riders who have tried to do it properly and there have been other who were prepared to do whatever it takes. That was as true in 1911 as 2011

Clean cycling - in both its execution and management - is a very laudable goal, but if we ever reach it, it will be a new arrival, not a return.

greeny12

I couldn't turn my back, same as I wouldn't stop watching football just because somebody wins a penalty by diving. There are cheats in all sports, just cycling is much much more public in its dirty laundry washing

I enjoy it too much to give up on it now, and besides the scenery is sooo nice!

rick_chasey

andrewjoseph wrote:

I think DaveyL's stance is to be applauded. We know one person not watching cycling will not make a dent, but sticking to your principles deserves respect.

I don't necessarily agree with you Davey, but well done for voicing your views in this manner.

Where's my applause for sticking to my principles? :P

If it makes me happy and I enjoy it, I'll watch.

A stunning ride makes generates so much happiness. A positive test afterwards can't take that moment away from me.

I'm interested in what happens on the road. Naturally, what happens off it impacts that, but that's only of secondary importance.

Presumably it's that instantanious enjoyment that I seek which makes me prefer the tangible racing of classics, rather than the 'racing against the clock' style of GTs, where, in certain situations, a good ride is 'limiting losses'.


Either way, the only thing cycling has going its way is the racing, and I think in discussions and forums that's often overlooked.

I'd personally suggest that some members on here, and many in the states at cyclingnews.com, have more expertise in doping than they do in being able to read the details and subtleties of a race, beyond the headline action.

Anonymous

Im going to keep riding and racing, but no more watching grand tours etc on TV.
I feel despondent.

andrewjoseph

Rick Chasey wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

I think DaveyL's stance is to be applauded. We know one person not watching cycling will not make a dent, but sticking to your principles deserves respect.

I don't necessarily agree with you Davey, but well done for voicing your views in this manner.

Where's my applause for sticking to my principles? :P

If it makes me happy and I enjoy it, I'll watch.

A stunning ride makes generates so much happiness. A positive test afterwards can't take that moment away from me.

Rick, not detracting from you in (m)any way, but Davey is publicly stating his change in approach to cycling, against current trend and opinion.

You are carrying on as normal.

Before I had heard of puerto (i was ignorant of cycling news for many years) i thought valverde was wonderful, discovering the reality upset me.

Armstrong was an inspiration when I got back on a bike after years of problems and pain. Now I'm starting to really dislike him, not just for the information I am learning from various sources, but because I feel he manipulated my affections for him.

For some vague reason I have never liked contador (I'm not happy with myself for this, I had no reason to dislike him). Now I believe him to be a cheat and liar.

rejoicing in a display of sporting prowess, only to learn it was enhanced, makes me feel dirty, used and cheated.

I might well give up following pro cycling if Evans and Cancellara were caught cheating. It really would upset me.

rick_chasey

andrewjoseph wrote:

I might well give up following pro cycling if Evans and Cancellara were caught cheating. It really would upset me.

Oh dear...

rick_chasey

andrewjoseph wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

I think DaveyL's stance is to be applauded. We know one person not watching cycling will not make a dent, but sticking to your principles deserves respect.

I don't necessarily agree with you Davey, but well done for voicing your views in this manner.

Where's my applause for sticking to my principles? :P

If it makes me happy and I enjoy it, I'll watch.

A stunning ride makes generates so much happiness. A positive test afterwards can't take that moment away from me.

Rick, not detracting from you in (m)any way, but Davey is publicly stating his change in approach to cycling, against current trend and opinion.

You are carrying on as normal.

Before I had heard of puerto (i was ignorant of cycling news for many years) i thought valverde was wonderful, discovering the reality upset me.

Armstrong was an inspiration when I got back on a bike after years of problems and pain. Now I'm starting to really dislike him, not just for the information I am learning from various sources, but because I feel he manipulated my affections for him.

For some vague reason I have never liked contador (I'm not happy with myself for this, I had no reason to dislike him). Now I believe him to be a cheat and liar.

rejoicing in a display of sporting prowess, only to learn it was enhanced, makes me feel dirty, used and cheated.

I might well give up following pro cycling if Evans and Cancellara were caught cheating. It really would upset me.

D'ya not think that because the performance addition is so unquantifiable, visibly, and that there's no transparency regarding who is on the juice and who isn't, that identifying the doper or whatever becomes trickier than just watching and enjoying the racing?

FJS

Apart from what Langerdan and Rick have already said -

I am not sure fans, or even sponsors, turning away is going to make cycling any cleaner. There is doping in sports with much smaller sums of money involved.

There is even a danger of a risk of the opposite happening - if critical, vocal and sceptical fans turn away from cycling, but the less critical don't, is that likely to be beneficial for anti-doping efforts?

The decision made about Contador is disappointing, but it's only one step in a longer legal process - and the majority of reactions outside Spain are negative as far as I can see. It's not the end of the matter.

The silence in the peloton is disappoinging too, but on the whole riders' public opinions on doping cases are different from 5, 10 or 15 years ago - and in a positive way. There's a long way to go, but I don't see what's so new about this case to suddenly turn away.

Personally I can't wait for proper racing to begin, replacing the over-analysis of doping cases. And luckily the one day classics we get first have more race-deciding elements other than doping than the GTs... Bring on Het Nieuwsblad.

andrewjoseph

Rick Chasey wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

I might well give up following pro cycling if Evans and Cancellara were caught cheating. It really would upset me.

Oh dear...

I can't find anything about cancellara doping, only the mechanical doping allegation, I put no credence in that allegation and neither do most experts from what I've read.

is there anything else to find? Please do put it up, I would rather find out now than be cheated for years.

rick_chasey

andrewjoseph wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

I might well give up following pro cycling if Evans and Cancellara were caught cheating. It really would upset me.

Oh dear...

I can't find anything about cancellara doping, only the mechanical doping allegation, I put no credence in that allegation and neither do most experts from what I've read.

is there anything else to find? Please do put it up, I would rather find out now than be cheated for years.

Pfft, it's just a hunch, no evidence at all. I just wouldn't remotely be surprised. I've had a few nods and winks from people who are more hooked up to the peloton than me about him.

Either way, if he rides like he did last year (apart from the beating Boonen bit obviously) then it's all good.

andrewjoseph

Rick Chasey wrote:

...

D'ya not think that because the performance addition is so unquantifiable, visibly, and that there's no transparency regarding who is on the juice and who isn't, that identifying the doper or whatever becomes trickier than just watching and enjoying the racing?

I agree in many ways, it is great watching your favoured rider blow away everyone else on the day. Sometimes though the performance difference between theoretically matched riders is too great and leaves me uncomfortable.

When subsequent testing shows cheating, the pleasure I felt on the day makes me sick.

It's akin to giving your friend a fiver for bus fare home, only to find out they spent it on sniffing glue.

I know it's not rational, but emotions seldom are.

andrewjoseph

Rick Chasey wrote:

...
Either way, if he rides like he did last year (apart from the beating Boonen bit obviously) then it's all good.

I don't like Boonen anymore. Using cocaine tends to bring people down in my esteem. Using it twice is more than twice as bad.

Not a good advert for anything.

andyp

andrewjoseph wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

I might well give up following pro cycling if Evans and Cancellara were caught cheating. It really would upset me.

Oh dear...

I can't find anything about cancellara doping, only the mechanical doping allegation, I put no credence in that allegation and neither do most experts from what I've read.

is there anything else to find? Please do put it up, I would rather find out now than be cheated for years.

Cancellara was, and may still be, coached by Luigi Cecchini, who worked with Franceso Conconi and Michele Ferrari and was rumoured to be Fuentes man in Italy;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Cecchini


If you look at his list of clients, the number who've failed doping tests is very high.

No_Ta_Doctor

mattsy666 wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

I watched religiously from my youth, when TdF first appeared on Channel 4 and stopped in '98 due to Festina. Between then and last year I didn't watch more than about 5 minutes of racing, in total. I finally came back to the sport, emboldened with tales of biological passports and progress being made. After all those years I was finally able to share it with my kids.

I don't think I'll be watching any this year, definitely not if Contador rides in the Giro or TdF.

Or to save some words ... 'too tight to pay for Eurosport' ...

Quite the keyboard warrior, aren't you mattsy? Did you rub yourself while posting that?

andrewjoseph

andyp wrote:

...

Cancellara was, and may still be, coached by Luigi Cecchini, who worked with Franceso Conconi and Michele Ferrari and was rumoured to be Fuentes man in Italy;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Cecchini


If you look at his list of clients, the number who've failed doping tests is very high.

sigh, thanks a bunch.

Still, evans is a safe bet..... isn't he?

thomasmc

This is all too melodramatic, there has always been doping in cycling!

There are more important things in life to get wound up about so relax a bit

lostboysaint

andrewjoseph wrote:

Still, evans is a safe bet..... isn't he?

Surely someone that whines that much is on something :?:

rick_chasey

andrewjoseph wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

...
Either way, if he rides like he did last year (apart from the beating Boonen bit obviously) then it's all good.

I don't like Boonen anymore. Using cocaine tends to bring people down in my esteem. Using it twice is more than twice as bad.

Not a good advert for anything.

Interesting.

I read a stat the other year which said 4 out of 10 men admitted to hospital with heart problems have at some point taken cocaine.

Either way, I take Boonen as a very popular super talented rider who is exciting to watch, has a great read of a race (usually) and usually says what he thinks. He's also an interesting guy - super competitive - and finds it difficult to find fault in himself and takes criticism badly - which makes him more compelling.

I took the cocaine thing on a human level rather than as a 'sportsperson' setting an example. His explanation, some time after the initital Contador esq "my drink was spiked" story, made a lot of sense. Coming into the classics comes with months and montths of very tough winter training. That cmbined with the pressure he and Belgium puts on him, is also pretty tough. After winning roubaix, after all that effort and pressure, he felt, understandably, that the ecstacy of winning was short lived. It's something I can very much imagine, and seeking to replicate it afterwards is also undetstandable.

Either way, the human aspect of cycling is one of its endearing qualities, beyond racing. It's personal, and its sufferng. Take a look at any number of 'legends' - especially the older ones. They're not role models. They're an embodiment of what humans can endure for a small taste of victory and a bit of cash, which, i guess, necessarily includes having to do sordid things like blood tranfusions half way up a mountain oi the back of a bus.

Armstrong isn't liked by Europeans ultimately because he made out he didn't suffer, and he showed us a very 2 dimensional character that appeared unhuman. He didn't 'respect' the other human qualities that people had - he just trampled over them in search of victory.

For me, the doping is just part of that human aspect. Sure I get p!ssed off when it affects results. I'm the first one shouting for Contador to p!ss off and get banned, but that's only because I don't want my racing, suffering spectacle to be put on hold. I don't care he doped - I care he got caught and won't admit to it, though I'm also annoyed he's cast a question mark over who won. Sure, I'd rather no doping, so we don't have that, but it has its own dark charm that can't be denied. It's not for nothing it's a popular topic here.

It's an ambivilant position, and I have my own internal inconsistencies. I enjoy the sepctacle that doping apepars to have allowed to happen, like Flandi's amazing solo win, or Pantani up Les Deux Alpe which got me into cycling. I even grimly enjoy reading the sordid horror stories or nasty blood tranfusions in the same way I watch distrubing and depression dramas and documentaries. I hate that the racing spectacle ican be ruined, and results I've seen altered.


I guess ultimately I try to bend my own feelings around the sport I love to watch so I can continue to watch and enjoy it.

I certainly will be watching.



*end of boring monolgue..

Tom Butcher

Rick Chasey wrote:

I took the cocaine.............

I'm not going to stop watching the racing in protest but the constant drip drip of doping cases and especially this one because an apparently guilty rider has got away with it despite testing positive does blunt the enjoyment I get out of the sport. Because of that I probably will watch less - and if I watch a lot less it'd no longer be worth my while getting Eurosport so I'd end up watching none.

It's not just the doping itself - it's the way the UCI appear to bend the rules for certain high profile riders - it starts to make the sport part WWF - still a spectacle but less a sport.

As for Boonen - frankly I couldn't give a monkeys if he took cocaine.

RichN95.

andrewjoseph wrote:

I don't like Boonen anymore. Using cocaine tends to bring people down in my esteem. Using it twice is more than twice as bad.

Not a good advert for anything.

You'll probably have to get rid of half your record collection then.