Armstrong retires

jerry3571

Blimey! I've said before that I am too old to care. The riders who were put up against Armstrong failed to beat him and also failed a lot of dope tests. I think it works out that it's like Dot to Dot when creating a picture. The riders who went against LA failed dope tests, anyone who left his team was done for doping so we can guess that LA and co may have doped.
I now think the Horse has bolted and we should put it all down to history.
There maybe a question about his Team being squeaky clean and the most powerful Tour Team in the world but it is history.
The Cancer which transformed his body in to the great Tour Champion is a side issue. The man needed the treatment and he was free to return in whatever state he was in. There are other cyclists who have returned from cancer who have not set the world alight, so what?

The Livestrong Charity has done a lot of good even though some here have thier doubts.

Also, to Deejay, I stood next to a very lean but muscular Armstrong before he had Cancer and Merckx always said that if Armstrong could lose the weight that he would be a great Tour Champion; Merckx was right.

Most previous grand Champions (Coppi, Bartali, Merckx, Maertens and Anquetil etc etc) have had the drugs issue not far from thier door and LA is the same;

This is from wikipedia about Coppi being interviewed on TV-

Question: Do cyclists take la bomba (amphetamine)?
Answer: Yes, and those who claim otherwise, it's not worth talking to them about cycling.
Question: And you, did you take la bomba?
Answer: Yes. Whenever it was necessary.
Question: And when was it necessary?
Answer: Almost all the time


As far as changing the sports identity, it was Greg lemond and Stephen Roche who got me in to bike racing so the english riders have been good for me. Lemond also changed the face of cycling and introduced a lot of changes; Helmets, Agents, Sunglasses, sponsorship, the aero gear which is still frowned upon by traditionalists.

LAs time was an era in cycling which has passed and we are now where we are. LA should go in to cycling history; the suspicions and his acheivements both remembered.
As I have said, the Horse has bolted and the Testers failed to get a proper positive test and that is that; it's all History.

moray_gub

mattsy666 wrote:

That's some fancy bold letters and capitalization you got going there mister ...

It did make it read like you were saying it though ... like an argumentative cult (where all the followers can't spell) ...

i mentioned this yesterday ... get over it and yourselves ... give it up ... unless he shagged your wife or daughter (or both ... and hey at least he couldn't get them pregnant ... oh, wait ...)

100% spot on the amount of posters up their own ars*s over LA is quite something. He is yesterdays man time to move on to another obsessive pastime.

moray_gub

Monty Dog wrote:

Dennis the 'facts' will probably be revealed when various samples are handed over by AFLD to the Feds for retro-spective analysis. What will your response be when the facts are hard evidence? There's also significant conjecture that a number of ex-team members have provided plenty more to the Grand Jury - but hey, lets not let the 'truth' get in the way of myth, pr-puff and fantasy.

Strange that you fill a post with words like probably ,significant conjecture and
then finish your post with lets not let the truth get in the way.

jerry3571

Monty Dog wrote:

Dennis the 'facts' will probably be revealed when various samples are handed over by AFLD to the Feds for retro-spective analysis. What will your response be when the facts are hard evidence? There's also significant conjecture that a number of ex-team members have provided plenty more to the Grand Jury - but hey, lets not let the 'truth' get in the way of myth, pr-puff and fantasy.

I think if all pro riders of any generation were to have thier blood tested in years to come, then we would find out that Cycling has always been riddled with drugs. The problem has been detection and should never have been about the judgement of a pro cyclist's moral fibre. Using drugs makes you go faster; that's a fact and people can get a lot of money and adulation for getting results. The temptation is huge. Why does a bike rider have to have the morals of a Saint to race on 2 wheels? Should they have a test of thier Moral Fibre before they are allowed to race?
It's a shame that riders put thier lives and health at great risk for us to watch them cross the line in first place. Is it correct for us to watch them in taking risks in such a way? Is watching Cycle Racing making the problems worse? If we watch cycle racing then we are part of the problem as Sponsors give money for thier branded rider to win with the Company's name in full view which increases sales.
I think we are almost as complicit as the riders themselves as we are the last link in the chain; the main reason why companies sponsor racing teams; it's all about the bottom line.
I think to judge a rider and not judge ourselves is a simple hypocrisy. If you have a fantastic moral compass then this sport maybe not for you.

Lance, at the end of the day, did a good job for his Team by winning 7 Tour de Frances and a lot of other races. He also brought about a huge Charity which does good work. He was not given a drug ban. This is all what was requested of LA and that is it, he doesn't have to do anything more, his job as a Pro bike rider was a simple success; love him or hate him.

-Jerry

dennisn

Monty Dog wrote:

Dennis the 'facts' will probably be revealed when various samples are handed over by AFLD to the Feds for retro-spective analysis. What will your response be when the facts are hard evidence? There's also significant conjecture that a number of ex-team members have provided plenty more to the Grand Jury - but hey, lets not let the 'truth' get in the way of myth, pr-puff and fantasy.

What will my response be you ask? To be honest, nothing. No matter what the "truth" is, what makes you think I care? I'm not going to send him my congrats or my sympathy or anything at all, for that matter, no matter how everything plays out. I might read whatever headline there is about it and go "ah, so that's how it went". I'm just sort of making fun at all the people who can't even deal with the name of Lance Armstrong. As I've said before I simply don't believe anyone on this forum when they say this hatred is about doping and how it's ruined cycling blah, blah, blah. That's way to simple. It goes deeper than that. I firmly believe we are talking loads of jealousy, obsession, etc., but I've said all that before.

blazing_saddles

Moray Gub wrote:

100% spot on the amount of posters up their own ars*s over LA is quite something. He is yesterdays man time to move on to another obsessive pastime.

So says the guy who is posting about Armstrong in the Contador thread.
Owning the copyright on this little phrase must make you exempt.

However, I once again find find myself in agreement on the salient part of this post.
I'm too involved in what is happening in this early season to show any interest in Armstrong the ex-pro. He has exited stage left.
All that is left to quibble over is more of a public interest story.
I find it hard to raise much enthusiasm to follow every little twist and turn of this long winded affair.
I'm mostly interested in the facts that remain, or are established, at the end of the process.

mrushton

Anything positive in the 1999 samples may be under the levels regarded as illegal in 1999 so it was still in the parameters set by the rules. 12 years later history repeats itself but that's ok for some people but wait until that plasticizer test is ratified
Anyway, Lance did what he did in the day, beat the best there was and now he's gone,just as Indurain did. Now my question is, if those samples have been stored correctly/haven't deteriorated and come up negative, what happens to all the theories/hatred?

Pokerface

Is it just me - or did the story of Armstrong's offiical re-retirement come out on the same day as the story about Bertie NOT being sanctioned by the Spanish Fed?

I wonder if he was holding off on announcing it until after finding out if Bert was going to be riding the Tour this year? 8)

cajun_cyclist

jerry3571 wrote:

Blimey!.....

Also, to Deejay, I stood next to a very lean but muscular Armstrong before he had Cancer and Merckx always said that if Armstrong could lose the weight that he would be a great Tour Champion; Merckx was right.

Most previous grand Champions (Coppi, Bartali, Merckx, Maertens and Anquetil etc etc) have had the drugs issue not far from thier door and LA is the same;

This is from wikipedia about Coppi being interviewed on TV-

Question: Do cyclists take la bomba (amphetamine)?
Answer: Yes, and those who claim otherwise, it's not worth talking to them about cycling.
Question: And you, did you take la bomba?
Answer: Yes. Whenever it was necessary.
Question: And when was it necessary?
Answer: Almost all the time


As far as changing the sports identity, it was Greg lemond and Stephen Roche who got me in to bike racing so the english riders have been good for me..

Lemond and Roche, English speaking Cyclists maybe.

Also, in speculating about this post, Bartali chain smoker I have read but used any doping products?? Don't believe so. Bartali was known for trying to catch Coppi on using doping products. There is little to suggest Bartali doped and hey, guess what??

Gino Bartali, 1914-2000, so about 86 when he passed away and sheesh, if he was a big smoker, he would have been pushing up daisies long ago I think if he was using Amphetamines too. Poor Coppi, they say in latter years he got so weak, I think pushing his system and perhaps using amphetamines would have contributed to his premature death, similar could have happened to Anquetil and a number of others too.

I'm sorry, you are trying to yank someone's chain here and so we don't know what to believe.

But some here would know the answer to this.

TMR

Pokerface wrote:

Is it just me - or did the story of Armstrong's offiical re-retirement come out on the same day as the story about Bertie NOT being sanctioned by the Spanish Fed?

I wonder if he was holding off on announcing it until after finding out if Bert was going to be riding the Tour this year? 8)

Why would it make a difference?

cajun_cyclist

Bartali was a poor devout Catholic from Southern Italy.

Bartali protected a Jewish family in his house during World War II.

Further details have emerged of the efforts the Italian cycling legend Gino Bartali made during the Second World War to help protect the country’s Jews from the Holocaust with the news that not only did he use training rides to act as a courier, but also hid a Jewish family in the cellar of his own home in Florence.

http://road.cc/node/28770

Sounds like an upstanding bloke to me.

If there is no proof to lump Bartali in with dopers, someone needs to correct what an ill-informed opinion that is.

Bartali won the Tour de France '38 and '48, of course, the War occurred and one would wonder if he could have won a few more. Top Man. Coppi along with Merckx are about the most famous pro road cyclists there have been, maybe others, Armstrong in the modern day.

Over at Youtube, I watched some of the Italian language movie I believe about Bartali and Coppi.

Pokerface

The Mad Rapper wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

Is it just me - or did the story of Armstrong's offiical re-retirement come out on the same day as the story about Bertie NOT being sanctioned by the Spanish Fed?

I wonder if he was holding off on announcing it until after finding out if Bert was going to be riding the Tour this year? 8)

Why would it make a difference?

Comeback 3.0 (or 2.1 depending on how you look at it)

jerry3571

If you look on Wikipedia and look at the page about Fausto Coppi and this is where I got this passage from-

Coppi was often said to have introduced "modern" methods to cycling, particularly his diet. Gino Bartali established that some of those methods included taking drugs, which were not then against the rules.

Bartali and Coppi appeared on television revues and sang together, Bartali singing about "The drugs you used to take" as he looked at Coppi. Coppi spoke of the subject in a television interview:

One old timer cyclist showed me some Bartali brake hoods a year back which were marketed by Gino himself. I think it had a strange nodule for gripping the bars a bit better.
Good to see.

-Jerry

blazing_saddles

Jerry, you might want to read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/sport ... cling.html
The Coppi-Bartali rivalry.
Contains the very famous response that Coppi made about his PED taking.

Gino Bartali on the other hand, is almost universally considered to have raced clean.
He was, in fact, obsessively anti-doping.

Monty Dog

Bartali was reknown for his 'pious' tendencies. Didn't stop him having a team of 'enforcers' who asserted his will both on and off the bike. There's a brilliant story in Jose Beyaert's biography "Olympic Gangster" by Matt Rendell concerning Jose's run-in...and they think they're tough these days? Guess we're digressing from this thread though?

jerry3571

Could be a dud page on wikipedia; shows that not all is true on this site.
Did read other stuff about Bartali's obsession with catching out Coppi's doping practices.

Ok, I'll take out the Bartali from the point above and put in Pantani. Sorry about the error.

Carry on! Venga Venga!!

-Jerry

rick_chasey

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Jerry, you might want to read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/sport ... cling.html
The Coppi-Bartali rivalry.
Contains the very famous response that Coppi made about his PED taking.

Gino Bartali on the other hand, is almost universally considered to have raced clean.
He was, in fact, obsessively anti-doping.

Bartali wasn't adverse to other underhand tactics - like getting gregari to raid Coppi's room.

Similarly, Coppi once got his Gregari to keep Bartali up late and drinking before a big stage because they knew he liked it. Ended up having lots of shit hungover Gregari and Bartali, who was used to it, was fine.

ms_tree

Tusher wrote:

Thankyou Ms Tree. Purrfectly put, if I may say so- "Somewhere down in Texas" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5FTN2bjTq0


Let's hope the bluddy well stays there this time.



(PS Is your library safe?)

We don't know yet, Tusher, which is a pain. Looks like a trust has been recommended but that isn't good as they aren't accountable.

ms_tree

I see they're opening his samples from 1999. Wouldn't want to be the one to do that after 11 years - be a bit wiffy by now. :?

cajun_cyclist

Ms Tree wrote:

I see they're opening his samples from 1999. Wouldn't want to be the one to do that after 11 years - be a bit wiffy by now. :?

They should be fine as long as they've been kept out of the sunlight!

CyclingBantam

cajun_cyclist wrote:

Ms Tree wrote:

I see they're opening his samples from 1999. Wouldn't want to be the one to do that after 11 years - be a bit wiffy by now. :?

They should be fine as long as they've been kept out of Ricco's fridge!

Fixed....

Tusher

Ms Tree wrote:

Tusher wrote:

Thankyou Ms Tree. Purrfectly put, if I may say so- "Somewhere down in Texas" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5FTN2bjTq0


Let's hope the bluddy well stays there this time.



(PS Is your library safe?)

We don't know yet, Tusher, which is a pain. Looks like a trust has been recommended but that isn't good as they aren't accountable.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. We're in the same boat, the HMS Bankrupt, facing redundancies, down-grading and over working. Never thought I'd see the day when nursing and librarian's jobs were under threat.

Makes the life of a pro cyclist look almost stable, financially.

mfin

At last.... a balanced opinion on the drug stories
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmu1CZEN6Yk
...although the guy has missed the point of the drugs just a smidge

>> just in case it hadn't been posted, couple of links to other armstrong drug allegations on tv from US (nothing new in them at all obviously)... just a link to first part of each...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrREyjqXpyo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnPttjysfA4&feature=related

cajun_cyclist

Cross posting this from the 'Wiggins a Liverpool fan" thread... upon seeing a referee wearing a Livestrong bracelet.

Found this picture:

While on the subject of football, it looks like a Livestrong ban does it not?

I may cross post this, why would he be wearing it? He in fact had cancer, this story confirms it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... ancer.html

Made some calls thought by many that did no favours for the Wolves team. Hope this Halsey chap does okay, they should have more than one ref, too much pressure for one man but he's suppose to be one of the best. Calls that were possibly missed could figure into things if the Wolves down in relegation, have to say Manager Mick McCarthy was gracious about the calls after the draw against Tottenham. Truth is those calls go against all teams one hopes over a season, that goal was close to me but are often nullified where you have a situation where a goalkeeper and opposition player collide.

cajun_cyclist

http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/mls/ ... Livestrong

The $200 million stadium, scheduled to open in June, will be called Livestrong Sporting Park. The club said Tuesday that Livestrong will not pay a fee and will also receive a portion of all stadium revenue, including ticket sales and concessions.

You'd wonder about a contingency plan if LA gets indicted, this deal is for 6 years, fine if one wants to say US Soccer is 2nd, 3rd rate, Vauxhall league, this is not a footy forum. A roll of the dice to me but carry on.

Yeh a good deal but for what kind of a sports hero? Not sure if Lance fits it, maybe it's not the reality of today.

The Kansas City soccer team has been playing in Arrowhead Stadium, home of the Kansas City Chiefs of the NFL. They may have found themselves playing in some other stadia as well. They have had some low attendance numbers. We'll see.